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missykrissy
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30 Mar 2011, 9:14 pm

draelynn wrote:
ISociopaths tend to assign blame for most things to others no matter how responsible they may or may not be. They do not empathize with others. They are concerned mainly their own interests even when in relationships. People tend to be other objects to be utilized to meet their own ends.


sounds like my pdd-nos child. does that mean he's a sociopath? i have met alot of people who are AS who tend to enjoy playing the victim rather than admitting they didn't understand something or caused something themselves. it's easier for them to put the blame on someone else because that way it doesn't upset the way they understand things.



draelynn
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30 Mar 2011, 10:36 pm

missykrissy wrote:
draelynn wrote:
ISociopaths tend to assign blame for most things to others no matter how responsible they may or may not be. They do not empathize with others. They are concerned mainly their own interests even when in relationships. People tend to be other objects to be utilized to meet their own ends.


sounds like my pdd-nos child. does that mean he's a sociopath? i have met alot of people who are AS who tend to enjoy playing the victim rather than admitting they didn't understand something or caused something themselves. it's easier for them to put the blame on someone else because that way it doesn't upset the way they understand things.


There are distinct differences... I can see now where I didn't explain far enough. First off, I am referring to adults, not children. The blame thing in kids can sometimes resolve itself as they mature. In a sociopath, they KNOW they are to blame and pass it off because they refuse to take responsibility. A child with PDD may not understand their responsibility in a situation or may have reasoned - sometimes quite logically - why it was not their fault or not their fault alone. The desire for balance and justice runs strong and if someone else somehow 'broke the rules' which led to the childs actions he very well may not see it as his fault. The blame placing isn't pathological as it is in sociopaths.

'Playing the victim' sounds unfair. I know in my childhood I also 'played the victim' - I was wrong so often about so many things that I just didn't want to be the only one wrong all the time. Especially when I didn't really understand WHY I was always wrong. All the explanation in the world still made little sense to me at times and no one was interested in my opinions on it. I always had them - strong ones, much more detailed and reasoned than a kid should have - but no adult ever wanted to hear me 'argue'. That is entirely unfair from a childs point of view and I can certainly understand why a child may get defensive or even defiant in defense of themselves. It's not easier to blame someone else. In fact, I couldn't actually do that if I didn't honestly believe that person to be at fault. I would have been wracked with guilt in accusing someone unfairly. I'm not saying this necessarily applies to all but I do know that being misunderstood is mainly what this board is about. It sounds like quiet calm discussion to understand where a kid is coming from might be more useful than accusing them of 'playing the victim'. It would certainly be a more positive step.

Only a doctor can dx - and I'm no doctor. These are just my opinions. If you have serious concerns, definitely consult someone licensed to evaluate.



missykrissy
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31 Mar 2011, 12:17 am

draelynn wrote:
missykrissy wrote:
draelynn wrote:
ISociopaths tend to assign blame for most things to others no matter how responsible they may or may not be. They do not empathize with others. They are concerned mainly their own interests even when in relationships. People tend to be other objects to be utilized to meet their own ends.


sounds like my pdd-nos child. does that mean he's a sociopath? i have met alot of people who are AS who tend to enjoy playing the victim rather than admitting they didn't understand something or caused something themselves. it's easier for them to put the blame on someone else because that way it doesn't upset the way they understand things.


There are distinct differences... I can see now where I didn't explain far enough. First off, I am referring to adults, not children. The blame thing in kids can sometimes resolve itself as they mature. In a sociopath, they KNOW they are to blame and pass it off because they refuse to take responsibility. A child with PDD may not understand their responsibility in a situation or may have reasoned - sometimes quite logically - why it was not their fault or not their fault alone. The desire for balance and justice runs strong and if someone else somehow 'broke the rules' which led to the childs actions he very well may not see it as his fault. The blame placing isn't pathological as it is in sociopaths.

'Playing the victim' sounds unfair. I know in my childhood I also 'played the victim' - I was wrong so often about so many things that I just didn't want to be the only one wrong all the time. Especially when I didn't really understand WHY I was always wrong. All the explanation in the world still made little sense to me at times and no one was interested in my opinions on it. I always had them - strong ones, much more detailed and reasoned than a kid should have - but no adult ever wanted to hear me 'argue'. That is entirely unfair from a childs point of view and I can certainly understand why a child may get defensive or even defiant in defense of themselves. It's not easier to blame someone else. In fact, I couldn't actually do that if I didn't honestly believe that person to be at fault. I would have been wracked with guilt in accusing someone unfairly. I'm not saying this necessarily applies to all but I do know that being misunderstood is mainly what this board is about. It sounds like quiet calm discussion to understand where a kid is coming from might be more useful than accusing them of 'playing the victim'. It would certainly be a more positive step.

Only a doctor can dx - and I'm no doctor. These are just my opinions. If you have serious concerns, definitely consult someone licensed to evaluate.


i wasn't refering to my child playing the victim, although he does often blame me for things he does like when i 'make him' break stuff by telling him he's not allowed to do certain things or taking away privilages for broken rules, or that i put him on a time out so it must be my fault he hit himself. while those do concern me, he is only a child and his perception of what is going on doesn't always match up with reality. i was actually thinking of my daughters father and his siblings who are on the spectrum, they seem to blame everyone else for any problems that they have. i have also noticed a few people on here placing blame on others for their actions when they have a choice on how they react to other peoples behaviour. while i completely understand how in a meltdown we can be driven to do things that we know we shouldn't we still need to take responsibility for that and not blame it on the person who upset us, most likely unintentionally. for example, my ex's sister has chosen to do nothing with her life. she is on disability, which I have nothing against. She smokes pot all the time and has a kid she doesn't look after. she blames her kids inadequate care on his father, who he has only met once or twice because he made the child, but she was there as well and could have used birth control. she insists she wouldn't have had a child if she'd known the father would abandon her, but she chose the father and chose to have unprotected sex with him when she'd only known him a few weeks. she blames her drug use on her mother and her uncles because they smoked pot occasionally when she was a child. it is her choice though that she started and continues to do so. she knows she is responsible for her own choices and yet she continues to blame other people because they did not do the right thing, but in the end we are each responsible for our own lives and decisions. when talking to her she makes herself out to be the victim of these people but the reality is that her poor decision making has caused the problems and she could easily have done things differently. it is easier for her to blame others than it is for her to examine how her own behaviour has cause negative consequences and then be forced to change those behaviours and deal with the guilt or feel bad about what she's done. that's what i meant by playing the victim. maybe her diagosis is off. she seems to spend a huge amount of time sitting in bed feeling sorry for herself and talking about all the wrongs that have ever been done to her, and it seems to be the same for the other people in her family who are on the spectrum other than one uncle who does his best to forgive people and live by what is right. perhaps it is a learned thing? either way i keep my daughter away from them as i don't want her to think that is an appropriate way to deal with things.



draelynn
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31 Mar 2011, 7:39 am

^^^ your ex's sister sounds like she has some severe issues from her past to deal with and is using classic avoidance behavior to keep from dealing with them. Heavy pot smokers often find themselves depressed - either before the pot which can be amplified while using it, or because of it. Many people react to their life issues this way, not just those with AS. blaming this kind of reaction on AS seems unjustifed.



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31 Mar 2011, 7:42 am

Your ex's sister's issues have nothing to do with Autism.
Neither is your AS child a sociopath.

I get the impression you don't like people with Autism much.
Especially as you posted elsewhere that the "natural" thing to do with autistic babies is leave them in the woods to die.



draelynn
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31 Mar 2011, 8:40 am

YippySkippy wrote:
Your ex's sister's issues have nothing to do with Autism.
Neither is your AS child a sociopath.

I get the impression you don't like people with Autism much.
Especially as you posted elsewhere that the "natural" thing to do with autistic babies is leave them in the woods to die.


I agree with the first two statements but those last two... a bit below the belt.

Missy expessed an opinion about a specific person - not everyone with AS. And that last comment has been taken WAY out of context. It was made in a discussion about evolution and was not expressed as her personal opinion but as a historical occurance which actually does have basis in fact. That right there is playing dirty pool, my friend.



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31 Mar 2011, 8:58 am

I brought it up because the two posts combined led me to the opinion that she doesn't care much for people on the spectrum. My opinion wasn't based on either post by itself, which is why I mentioned the other post.

For the record, exposing infants was NOT widely practiced throughout history. The ancient Greeks did it, and it must be noted that they exposed healthy babies as well as "defective" ones. They disposed of any baby they didn't want, basically. They thought murdering a baby would anger the gods, but abandoning one wouldn't illicit the same response. The ancient Greeks although thought it was fine for old men to have sex with little boys. Does that make pedophilia "natural"?



draelynn
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31 Mar 2011, 9:21 am

YippySkippy wrote:
I brought it up because the two posts combined led me to the opinion that she doesn't care much for people on the spectrum. My opinion wasn't based on either post by itself, which is why I mentioned the other post.

For the record, exposing infants was NOT widely practiced throughout history. The ancient Greeks did it, and it must be noted that they exposed healthy babies as well as "defective" ones. They disposed of any baby they didn't want, basically. They thought murdering a baby would anger the gods, but abandoning one wouldn't illicit the same response. The ancient Greeks although thought it was fine for old men to have sex with little boys. Does that make pedophilia "natural"?


I'm not sure it was expressed to be 'widely' practiced. And I did not express my opinion on it either way. China has a long history of child abandonment not only for birth defects but for simply being born a girl. The practice happens. That is all that was stated.

Considering pedophila has existed throughout history and persists still I think it is fair to characterize it as a naturally occurring developmental condition BUT that statement in no way condones it legally or morally by current societal standards. And I'm unsure about the corrolation here. If unwanted babies were abandoned it wouldn't be considered 'natural' - it isn't a biologically programmed response. In fact it is the direct opposite of the nurturing response nature programmed into human beings. I'm not sure anyone feels it is 'natural' to abandon a baby. How does baby abandonment compare to pedophila at all?



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31 Mar 2011, 10:02 am

*Sigh* Why doesn't anyone ever understand what I'm saying?

Missykrissy said that it was natural for people to abandon abnormal children, citing the fact that it had been done in the past. My point is that this practice was the exception to the general rule. Further, even if people had overwhelmingly done so in the past, that would not make it any less morally reprehensible. Just as many people being pedophiles does not make pedophilia okay. Since both pedophilia and exposing infants were practices of the ancient Greeks, I felt that one could be used as an analogy for the other.
So that's how that relates to that. *bonks head on wall*



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31 Mar 2011, 10:50 am

YippySkippy wrote:
*Sigh* Why doesn't anyone ever understand what I'm saying?

Missykrissy said that it was natural for people to abandon abnormal children, citing the fact that it had been done in the past. My point is that this practice was the exception to the general rule. Further, even if people had overwhelmingly done so in the past, that would not make it any less morally reprehensible. Just as many people being pedophiles does not make pedophilia okay. Since both pedophilia and exposing infants were practices of the ancient Greeks, I felt that one could be used as an analogy for the other.
So that's how that relates to that. *bonks head on wall*


Other than both practices being Greek, there is no corrolation. The relationship between catamite and pederast was not considered 'morally reprehensible' in ancient Greece and was, in fact, fairly common. I do not know the detailed history of baby abandonment in ancient Greek but by your account that practice was rare and unacceptable. What am I missing here?

And the entire point was that the sentence, taken out of context, would be considered inflammatory and that missykrissy deserved a fair accounting of her words in context. If we wish to debate the context of her words, it should be done in the thread in which she originally posted it.



missykrissy
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31 Mar 2011, 11:32 am

YippySkippy wrote:
*Sigh* Why doesn't anyone ever understand what I'm saying?

Missykrissy said that it was natural for people to abandon abnormal children, citing the fact that it had been done in the past. My point is that this practice was the exception to the general rule. Further, even if people had overwhelmingly done so in the past, that would not make it any less morally reprehensible. Just as many people being pedophiles does not make pedophilia okay. Since both pedophilia and exposing infants were practices of the ancient Greeks, I felt that one could be used as an analogy for the other.
So that's how that relates to that. *bonks head on wall*


wow.... i never said that at all. what i did say was that someone told me that kids like mine would have been left in the woods on their own by their birth mother if she didn't want them. i never said it would be a good thing, just something that could have happened because 1)the birth mother did abandon the child in real life, and 2) the child is increadibly difficult to deal with to the point i could see how the birth mother(NOT ME!!) might have simply abandoned him anywhere if there was no fostercare system to drop him off at. greeks were not the only people to have a history of abandoning children. it happens even in our own culture just in a different way.

as for not liking people with autism that's silly. i have three kids on the spectrum and have married not one aspie but two. i also think i may have it but since i have not talked to a doctor about it well, it's just something i think. so are you saying i don't like myself, my kids or my spouse? because that is not the case at all. it is hard for me to know if blaming others for everything would be a side effect of the way the inlaws think because of being on the spectrum or not. i know when i was younger i was often accused of the same thing by my parents but never saw it and it's also something my kids do, blame the chair for hurting their toe or whatever. never said that it's something everyone on the spectrum does because i don't lump everyone together like that. we are all unique individuals and i am one that beleives that you can't judge an entire group of people by one or a few members of a group. you are projecting and twisting my words around and i don't appreciate it.



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31 Mar 2011, 1:15 pm

missykrissy wrote:
. i know when i was younger i was often accused of the same thing by my parents but never saw it and it's also something my kids do, blame the chair for hurting their toe or whatever. never said that it's something everyone on the spectrum does because i don't lump everyone together like that.


Okay - I admit it. I still do get mad at inanimate objects occassionally... 'stupid chair' did make me laugh at myself. I think I was more concerned with the blaming others blindly like I would an inanimate object. Even as a kid, I made a clear distinction there. As an adult it's probably a bit of immaturity clinging on but, you know, I blame plenty of other real life things on myself. Blame and guilt are a part of daily life. Sometimes I think it's okay to let an inanimate object help take some of the blame occassionally.