The "Theory of Mind" Theory of ASD Doesn't Make Se

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13 Nov 2010, 7:05 am

If researchers honestly think we don't realize that others have beliefs, desires, and intentions different from our own they must not actually be talking to any of us when they do their research.

I mean the answer to that question to anyone other than a solipsist is "duh". It's pretty basic that other people have beliefs, desires, and intentions other than my own. The problem is figuring out what those are specifically in cases of evaluating individual persons.

In fact with my understanding of social science I can figure this out pretty well for groups such as nations, minority groups, political affiliations, and to a lesser extent from my understanding of psychology sometimes individuals but usually not in fluid scenarios. This can lead to a lot of anxiety sometimes if I notice things about people's behavior towards me or their behavior in general and then relate it to a psychological or sociological concept. I sometimes latch on to the most pessimistic interpretation and need to remind myself there's many other potential reasons for people's behavior. The things I do notice in people's body language, tone, facial expressions tend to take on an exaggerated form in my mind. Usually these are things that fairly obvious and not subtle or related to things I've read about body language/facial expressions.

I actually wish I didn't have a theory of mind, because the fact that others have beliefs, desires, and intentions different from my own is a constant source of distress. If I didn't realize that I would be in a state of blissful ignorance 24-7. All I would have to do is adopt a belief in solipsism but unfortunately I can't deceive myself that well.



Vector
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13 Nov 2010, 7:22 am

I am fascinated by issues like these. For what it's worth, I think my theory of mind issues are more similar to your than to the stereotyplcal "impaired empathy" thing. What I think they will find when they come to understand the spectrum better is that we can have unusual strengths as well as unusual deficits when it comes to understanding others.

I've sometimes wondered if I can see only people's negative movies while their positive ones remain masked to me. Or if the mind-numbing selfishness which seems to dictate the actions of most individuals is actually less visible to NT people than it is to me. I think one reason why people need to see us as impaired in this area is that they know we see things they don't, and it scares them.

But then, I am impaired in this area. I find it incredibly hard to bond with people. I just don't like most of them very much. Being me appears to be scarier and less fun than being NT.


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wavefreak58
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13 Nov 2010, 9:39 am

I wonder if the key differences are intellectual versus intuitive. Rationally, I KNOW others have thoughts and intention. But determining another's intent is more a logical exercise for me than any automatic understanding of how they might react or behave. I also do not easily recognize other's 'self-ness'. People are things that emit noise (bad description, I know), no different than a rock making noise as it falls down a mountain.



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13 Nov 2010, 9:42 am

wavefreak58 wrote:
People are things that emit noise (bad description, I know), no different than a rock making noise as it falls down a mountain.


Can I quote you on that? I really like it.


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ZakFiend
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13 Nov 2010, 9:48 am

Aspies on average DO have theory of mind issues though, many are oblivious and can't predict what someone else will do by pretending to be them or see things from their perspective, we tend to have a hard time in perspective taking because we take a "gods eye" view of the world (i.e. we believe our own view of the world as truth vs the other persons)

I have a tendency to intellectualize everything and I get frustrated when I can't convince someone rationally to have them follow an argument or path I've gone through and come to the same conclusions. You realize very quickly as an aspie that most people are 1) Incapable of truly rational/logical thought 2) have inferior ability for self-development and growth.



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13 Nov 2010, 9:53 am

Perhaps the "theory of mind" thingy reflects researchers lack of it because they can't get that some people may react differently to the same data,
I see what NT see but i chose or forced to react differently because i'm wired to another set of values and motives and since NT are basicly egocentric they assumes that if u do not react like them it means that you are blind.
the "theory of mind" concept was born out of the NT lack of real empathy ,
They can feel empathy to their own kind but not for someone who is different and such empathy just self love disguised as a love for another'
dishonesty doesn't work well for a proper professional and academic research, but there u have it



leejosepho
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13 Nov 2010, 9:55 am

Vector wrote:
I think one reason why people need to see us as impaired in this area is that they know we see things they don't, and it scares them.

Yes, and I can empathize with them on that fear ... yet they seem to prefer just jumping up and scurrying away rather than taking a closer look, and that makes no sense to me.


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13 Nov 2010, 10:13 am

Quote:
If researchers honestly think we don't realize that others have beliefs, desires, and intentions different from our own they must not actually be talking to any of us when they do their research.

Well, we don't do it intuitively

Quote:
In fact with my understanding of social science I can figure this out pretty well for groups such as nations, minority groups, political affiliations, and to a lesser extent from my understanding of psychology sometimes individuals but usually not in fluid scenarios. This can lead to a lot of anxiety sometimes if I notice things about people's behavior towards me or their behavior in general and then relate it to a psychological or sociological concept. I sometimes latch on to the most pessimistic interpretation and need to remind myself there's many other potential reasons for people's behavior. The things I do notice in people's body language, tone, facial expressions tend to take on an exaggerated form in my mind. Usually these are things that fairly obvious and not subtle or related to things I've read about body language/facial expressions.


I can't say anything else but: carry on practicing, use dummies

Feed your database of stereotyped dummies to have more background personality, standard behaviors and of course background intentionality. (the tired businessman after work, the beautiful woman who overacts, the shy beautiful woman) and use a wardrobe of states (very well dressed, exited, slow, smile)

At the moment you have a contradiction, don't drop the expected background personality too quickly: Often, the person does not try to communicate something to you, but he tries to correct what he dislikes in himself (oh I must look more convincing when I say this) and you just happen to see it. NTs do identify themselves to some cliché and go back and forth between them. You must use your tools (sociology, psychology...) inside this context, it will narrow ranges of your possible interpretations

Quote:
I actually wish I didn't have a theory of mind, because the fact that others have beliefs, desires, and intentions different from my own is a constant source of distress. If I didn't realize that I would be in a state of blissful ignorance 24-7. All I would have to do is adopt a belief in solipsism but unfortunately I can't deceive myself that well.

Haha, because you think NT people don't ever have any trouble to understand each other? When they are in trouble they have a Swiss knife, we have an aircraft carrier...


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bee33
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13 Nov 2010, 11:46 am

I can be quite shrewd in figuring out people's intentions and motivations when they have a clear and (to me) obvious agenda. I think I am better at it that the average person, because I can be more logical and ferret out their reasons for acting a certain way or setting a certain series of events in motion. (This is also true with broader issues, like political agendas.) Where I get blindsided is when their actions are directed against me, because I assume that my own honesty and guilelessness is obvious and that people aren't out to hurt me or manipulate me, because they must know I am harmless, when in fact they sometimes are, and I only realize it after they've laid a trap and I've fallen right into it.



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13 Nov 2010, 12:12 pm

I haven't spoken to many researchers or 'experts' but the very very few people I talked to who were supposed to know about Autism (at least on some level) seemed to mentally disregard anything I said about it (after hearing I was diagnosed). Thus, I think that some researchers work may be invalid because they didn't think it was valid to just ask.



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13 Nov 2010, 12:33 pm

When i was younger i saw alot of people do stuff that made no sense to me. I didnt understand why they chose that kind of behaviour, didnt know what kind of response they were looking for and to be quite frank, i still wonder how many people actually THINK about what they are doing, or whether they do stuff on the fly, no conscious thought. Sometimes alot of behaviour seems so inefficient and short term, as though they don't have any meta view or simply not care about the metaview. I dont understand that. Then i wonder.

1. if i do understand that, then can you call that empathy?
2. if i do understand that but am not aware of that, can you call that empathy?
3. if i dont understand it and am not aware of it but just tag along, then can you call that empathy?

what i see in so many NT people is that they understand alot of stuff, i dont know if they are aware of that understanding or not, but its also pretty limited. they understand common stuff, common reactions without thinking about it.

When it comes to the complex stuff, they cannot understand it at all, even when they have to think about it. They don't understand and they don't approve, the least they do is accept that it is so.

Whereas alot of people with ASD, learn to understand all sorts of behaviour but not on a subconscious level, from the moment they are born. They are either to pre-occupied with other stuff OR they are learning to understand all sorts of behaviour of anyone. Every meeting with some other person involves the question "what do they mean?"

At times i think that the knowledge or ideas that i have are similar to the ideas of other people and i'm pretty surprised when they are not, but in general i dont really assume people to think like me. Its happened to me alot more often that NT people assumed i had the same ideas as them and followed the same reasoning.

Then why is it that academically its seen as a pure autistic trait?
Because of that research with the two dolls and the eggs in a basket? Is there any other research on it aswell? I wonder, because i can't wrap my head around it. When i read that stuff i felt that something was off, but i quite cant put my finger on it.



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13 Nov 2010, 1:42 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
I wonder if the key differences are intellectual versus intuitive. Rationally, I KNOW others have thoughts and intention. But determining another's intent is more a logical exercise for me than any automatic understanding of how they might react or behave. I also do not easily recognize other's 'self-ness'. People are things that emit noise (bad description, I know), no different than a rock making noise as it falls down a mountain.


I know, right? My mom tells me that I'm "intuitive", yet I can't really understand others' motives, and when I do understand, it's always more exaggerated than it really is, or it's overused in anime (anime and psychology textbooks are the ways that I use to understand people...). I can recognize people as people, but I have a problem if they have different ideas, not because I don't recognize that people have different beliefs, but I have a hard time tolerating things that I think are wrong (even if it's as seemingly-benign as...Disney).



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13 Nov 2010, 2:15 pm

bee33 wrote:
Where I get blindsided is when their actions are directed against me, because I assume that my own honesty and guilelessness is obvious and that people aren't out to hurt me or manipulate me, because they must know I am harmless, when in fact they sometimes are, and I only realize it after they've laid a trap and I've fallen right into it.

Yes, that used to be a really big problem for me until I finally began learning about rhetorical questions and specific ways people ask certain types of questions to actually pry and dig for the sake of their own agendas.


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13 Nov 2010, 3:09 pm

caerulean wrote:
When i was younger i saw alot of people do stuff that made no sense to me.


That's kind of the point. When you read descriptions of things like Theory of Mind as regards autism, they're usually talking about kids. If you're no longer a kid, then that description will not apply to you so much, if at all.


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13 Nov 2010, 3:23 pm

There are two parts of theory of mind: understanding that others' thoughts and emotions are separate and different from one's own, and being able to form an accurate theory about what thoughts and emotions others may be experiencing depending on whatever said others may be experiencing at the time.

From what I understand, neither autistic nor neurotypical children immediately understand that others' thoughts and emotions are separate from said children's own thoughts and emotions, but both do typically develop this ability.

But the second part of theory of mind, understanding not just *that* others thoughts and emotions are different but also having a similar enough mind to be able to somewhat reliably predict *what* others thoughts and emotions are is the problem that autistic people have trouble with.

It seems reasonable that autistic people would be considered to have theory of mind in relation to a person who thought in a similar enough way, but anticipating what someone else may be thinking when said someone else's thought processes usually bring them to different conclusions from one's own (and for unknown reasons) seems impossible.



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13 Nov 2010, 5:18 pm

On "predicting others ToM":

The researchers go wrong when they assume that everyone should assume people think like NTs. That's not a reasonable assumption. The reasonable assumption is that people assume other people think like themselves (that's the only brain you have to model things with, after all), which also explains why NTs have difficulty understanding autists and NTs from different cultures, and why some autists can understand some autists.

For a metaphor, NTs are different shades of red trying to understand each other, while we're yellows, greens and blues.