Email from WP to ARC request debate on WP with S.B Cohen.

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edgewaters
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19 Apr 2012, 8:47 pm

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ToM is the ability to attribute mental states to others, to infer what someone else is thinking or feeling. It is one of the two major components of empathy, sometimes known as 'cognitive empathy'. The other major component is known as 'affective empathy', or the drive to respond with an appropriate emotion to someone else's mental states. Our work is showing that both components of empathy may be impaired in autism and Asperger Syndrome.


Interesting. Theory of mind is one of the main reasons I don't identify with Asperger's, as it is described in the literature. I am not impaired in this area, if anything, I have above-average capabilities here.

But affective empathy, here I am severely impaired. I'm very quick to understand why someone else is upset, and very good at resolving conflicts that stem from a misunderstanding. But I have a great deal of difficulty accessing my emotions, so affective empathy is extremely difficult.

My technique for comforting people or defusing situations is basically solution-based, and I'm really good at that. I can help people work through their feelings, provide insight, defuse misunderstandings, all these sorts of things. But of course there are many situations where there is no solution. Someone in grief over a loss, for instance, I am absolutely terrible at that sort of thing.



slave
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19 Apr 2012, 9:35 pm

edgewaters wrote:
Quote:
ToM is the ability to attribute mental states to others, to infer what someone else is thinking or feeling. It is one of the two major components of empathy, sometimes known as 'cognitive empathy'. The other major component is known as 'affective empathy', or the drive to respond with an appropriate emotion to someone else's mental states. Our work is showing that both components of empathy may be impaired in autism and Asperger Syndrome.


Interesting. Theory of mind is one of the main reasons I don't identify with Asperger's, as it is described in the literature. I am not impaired in this area, if anything, I have above-average capabilities here.

But affective empathy, here I am severely impaired. I'm very quick to understand why someone else is upset, and very good at resolving conflicts that stem from a misunderstanding. But I have a great deal of difficulty accessing my emotions, so affective empathy is extremely difficult.

My technique for comforting people or defusing situations is basically solution-based, and I'm really good at that. I can help people work through their feelings, provide insight, defuse misunderstandings, all these sorts of things. But of course there are many situations where there is no solution. Someone in grief over a loss, for instance, I am absolutely terrible at that sort of thing.


Do you have alexithymia?



edgewaters
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19 Apr 2012, 11:19 pm

slave wrote:
Do you have alexithymia?


I had to look that up. "a state of deficiency in understanding, processing, or describing emotions."

I don't think so. Let's say I'm upset. I can describe that to you, work out the reasons for it, tell you how it's affecting me, and I'm pretty good at working through it and coming to grips with it. But can I act as if I'm upset? Not really. It's more like I'm observing it from the outside. My emotional states are never strong. I don't explode with anger or burst into tears or walk around with a big smile on my face. I feel it, but I can't usually do more than simply state it.



slave
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23 Apr 2012, 3:36 pm

"It's more like I'm observing it from the outside."

That reminds me of a dissociative state called depersonalization. There are many possible reasons for the diminished ability to manifest emotional states. It is healthy that you can feel the emotion.

I can relate to you on some level. Many people have never seen me express certain emotions and yet I do feel them. I can fully describe my internal state but I sound like a Vulcan relaying factual information completely devoid of any emotional coloring.



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01 Jul 2012, 8:34 pm

Let's play Simon Says!


Simon says we're impaired.


So we think we're impaired.


So we act impaired.


So people treat us like we're impaired.


Simon is essentially saying, "Act impaired!"



jojobean
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08 Jul 2012, 12:37 pm

Well I agree that I have some issues with empathy. My Grandfather is dying...I feel nothing. My mother cries about it at least once a day, I have no freaking idea how to comfort her. I want to comfort her which shows that I have empathy at some level, but it is distorted in a way from normal functioning empathy. I seem to have more emotional empathy for those who suffer who I am am not close to, but the closer I am to someone, the less emotional empathy I have. I intelectually know a person I love is suffering and try to make things better, but I feel nothing...like numbness. Maybe I actually have too much empathy and it short circuts my empathy grid. Who knows?

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friedmacguffins
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25 Sep 2012, 11:19 pm

I believe that I have a different, but not inferior, value system.

As humor was mentioned, I like the more clever, mechanical sort of whimsy -- like a windup automaton, a panorama made of candy, science trick, novelties of marksmanship, or verbal humor. I don't like to hate schadenfreude.

Though detail may seem narrow minded, I believe that order is part of the bigger picture.

I get the idea that many people are dialectical in their worldview, that there is a plot device, which needs to be settled. Liminality, or the unsettled complication is considered especially meritorious.

But, what's so bad about something, which works well?



slave
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27 Sep 2012, 5:14 pm

friedmacguffins wrote:
I believe that I have a different, but not inferior, value system.

As humor was mentioned, I like the more clever, mechanical sort of whimsy -- like a windup automaton, a panorama made of candy, science trick, novelties of marksmanship, or verbal humor. I don't like to hate schadenfreude.

Though detail may seem narrow minded, I believe that order is part of the bigger picture.

I get the idea that many people are dialectical in their worldview, that there is a plot device, which needs to be settled. Liminality, or the unsettled complication is considered especially meritorious.

But, what's so bad about something, which works well?


????? wrong thread, i think?????????????



onks
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17 Oct 2012, 9:09 pm

memesplice wrote:
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Empathy in autism spectrum conditions

Simon Baron-Cohen, Carrie Allison, Bonnie Auyeung, Mike Lombardo, Bhismadev Chakrabarti, Amber Ruigrok, Meng-Chuan Lai.

The ARC began work in this area by studying 'theory of mind' (ToM) deficits in autism and Asperger Syndrome. ToM is the ability to attribute mental states to others, to infer what someone else is thinking or feeling. It is one of the two major components of empathy, sometimes known as 'cognitive empathy'. The other major component is known as 'affective empathy', or the drive to respond with an appropriate emotion to someone else's mental states. Our work is showing that both components of empathy may be impaired in autism and Asperger Syndrome.

We study the cognitive component using tests of emotion recognition and mental state inference. We study the affective component using measures of arousal (heart rate, galvanic skin response) and using questionnaires such as the Empathy Quotient (EQ). We have developed different versions of the EQ for different age groups.


http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/project_1_empathy

How do we respond to the above ?


My first thoughts about this go like that:

It seems quite clear that we have problems of understanding what others feel.
But it remains a question what actually is an appropriate emotion.

This appropriate emotion depends on the perceptions of "aspies by NT". And that they have difficulties understanding us is for similar reasons obvious, too. Appropriate is a matter of viewpoint, thus.

I would be very interested to understand why and what are the causes of these problems. And to include both perspectives as logically equal. Such that both NTs and aspies would see the differences in their worlds. NT does like this :XXX, aspie like this YYY. This leads to problems XYZ.

It seems to me that we are more "individualist feelers" whilst NTs are "feelers that relate to common ground".
Also regarding the ability to sense thinking of NTs, I think that the thinking process relates very strongly to feelings.
And if you don't understand the feelings you'd obviously have problems to understand the thoughts of NTs, too.

Also, since there is "common ground" in their feelings NTs wouldn't communicate more then what they think is necessary that other NTs get it.
They do not understand that someone can be different, or if, then they are not very often considering to close that gap.
And then they'd use body language and facial expressions that we are not commonly able to interpret (or not correctly).

Now, these are just thoughts. And somehow relate to the text above.

But obviously they study the emotion recognition of aspies of NTs feelings.
And not the general recognition of feelings.
Aspie rcognition of aspie feelings is working differently.
And NT recognition of aspie feelings as well.

I just don't know if that makes sense, if all aspies are "individualist feelers", if all aspies have different feelings.
Nevertheless I think we have also some "aspie common ground feelings" that are just different than "NT common ground feelings".
And these are easily and appropriately communicated amongst aspies.

Thus, we are probably able to communicate better our feelings with other aspies than with NTs.
Though it might be even that this communication is impaired
(compared to that what NTs would be able to communicate).

And, when these two worlds touch, there will be difficulties.

Remains also the question if there is interest for something like this.
If you calculate the probabilities of conversations just based on randomness

NT NT 90%x90%= 81 %
NT aspie 2x90%x10%=18%
aspie aspie 10%x10%=1%

(with maybe a little exaggerated numbers, taking into account all spectrum related persons, those that we identify and like)

and how often who has problems

NT sees 90 % of time NT --> no or little problems
NT sees 10 % of time aspie --> problems
aspie sees 90 % of time NT --> problems
aspie sees 10 % of time aspie --> less problems

that is of course only randomness, normally one could think that
a) NTs prefer NTs
b) some NTs tend to avoid aspies --> makes problems worse for aspies
c) some aspies avoid NTs --> usually not a big deal? because NT sees anyway just 10% of time aspies
d) aspies prefer aspies

To put it down to a few words: I would like them to include the viewpoints of aspies into it,
instead of just describing it only from an NT perspective. In that sense: what are appropriate feelings?

Feelings that relate to for aspies typical anxiety make these things more difficult, because they are not normal state feelings for aspies
Though they have, usually, an important impact on the character of aspies. Anxiety is a thing you can cure. Autism not.

This that autism cannot be cured puts up a stronger moral claim, that both NTs and aspies perspectives should be considered more equally.

Like, for example in an NT aspie conversation you could also see it like that, that NTs are the ones that express inappropriate feelings
(or what is actually more the truth is both do wrong things)
Who is right here, always the majority==NT or what?

Is there some logical reasoning why one should say that NTs feelings are more appropriate than ours?
If some of our feelings are considered inappropriate by us, then should we just learn them and forget our own feelings?
Or are those inappropriate feelings only related to anxiety and depression (where our feelings in anxiety and depression are different than typical NT ones in same disorders)?

What about affective empathy of NTs in the direction of aspies?



Last edited by onks on 17 Oct 2012, 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

onks
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17 Oct 2012, 9:51 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
I am wondering if there are any websites, maybe blogs, collecting and discussing research papers about autism? Blogs with posts presenting one research paper at a time and evaluating it for accuracy and scientific validity? Ones that point out erroneous assumptions wherever they are found? Ones that point out factual and logical errors wherever they are found?

Just because a research paper has been published does not mean that it does not contain erroneous assumptions and conclusions. NTs have their "Peer Review". We should apply our "Logical Review" to the results of their "Peer Review".


Ideally there is no difference between "Peer review" and "Logical Review". If you are well enough into the field of Neuroscience you can be a reviewer.

if a researcher is honest and eager, he/she would not be interested to make false models about the reality. Thus he/she would take our comments into account. I don't think there are too many papers that are too far off reality.
One problematic aspect is though that all feelings or reactions on our side that do not suit NTs are considered inappropriate.
That is almost a philosophical and clearly a moral question.

I think the point is to help us or to research how to best possibly help us.
And there only the result counts, how much it helped.
On this way you anyway have to understand and identify the problems more generally.

Well, the reality is that our feelings are different and they are typically perceived as inappropriate by NTs. That's how I would put it.



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23 Oct 2012, 1:10 pm

The problem with debating Simon, guys, is that Simon isn't the bad guy.

He's talking about lack of empathy, true. Empathy strictly defined as the ability to accurately read and mirror the emotions of others, to truly see though another's eyes (as opposed to putting oneself in another's position).

There is very little room for debate there. That is at variance in the autistic population. We do not, quite literally, feel like neurotypical people feel. Our emotions function differently.

He's not the one saying that empathic variance makes us psychopaths. In fact, the oft-referenced work contrasts autistics and psychopaths, demonstrating how they are NOT the same.

http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/30.m ... e-of-evil/

People still read two out of three words, believe what they choose to believe, and come away from the article believing that autism equates to psychopathy. I have actually had mental health professionals cite this article to make the argument that I have to be a psychopath and must shut up and take my Risperdal-- though the article clearly states the complete opposite.

It's not Simon we are fighting with. It's sh***y old human nature. :cry: :cry: :cry: :evil: :evil: :evil:

While I'm on the subject-- how many times now have I read that attempting to mind-read is actually a major barrier to effective, accurate, and meaningful communication?? It's enough to make anyone's head spin.

God, I'm tired.


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onks
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25 Oct 2012, 3:16 am

BuyerBeware wrote:
The problem with debating Simon, guys, is that Simon isn't the bad guy.

He's talking about lack of empathy, true. Empathy strictly defined as the ability to accurately read and mirror the emotions of others, to truly see though another's eyes (as opposed to putting oneself in another's position).

There is very little room for debate there. That is at variance in the autistic population. We do not, quite literally, feel like neurotypical people feel. Our emotions function differently.

He's not the one saying that empathic variance makes us psychopaths. In fact, the oft-referenced work contrasts autistics and psychopaths, demonstrating how they are NOT the same.

http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/30.m ... e-of-evil/

People still read two out of three words, believe what they choose to believe, and come away from the article believing that autism equates to psychopathy. I have actually had mental health professionals cite this article to make the argument that I have to be a psychopath and must shut up and take my Risperdal-- though the article clearly states the complete opposite.

It's not Simon we are fighting with. It's sh***y old human nature. :cry: :cry: :cry: :evil: :evil: :evil:

While I'm on the subject-- how many times now have I read that attempting to mind-read is actually a major barrier to effective, accurate, and meaningful communication?? It's enough to make anyone's head spin.

God, I'm tired.


Yes I agree totally with that what you say.
If you'd put any subjective expressions into research then that is a sign of bad science.
And especially for autism based research this is quite tricky (or I think he generally is up to investigating feelings related stuff).

Well, regarding the word "inappropriate":

In communication you'd have to consider both sides in NT aspie communication:
First is the NT view:
The Aspie would in his/her eyes behave "inaproriately" or better "off norm", because the perception is different
The NT would try to find things that are not there or that are not developed normally in the communcation of aspies, eye contact, body language.
Even this "strange" appearance is difficult to describe without feelings

Second the aspie view:
He/she would behave more like he/she thinks would be important, and that would reduce greatly the impact of eye contact and body language.
Now, that the NT doesn't get it because there is missing something in his/her eyes is as equal as with the NT impression about us,
and we perceive this as "strange" , too.
NTs don't get it either because they typically don't want to go into logic reasoning or they typically don't want to adapt to their communication partner.
They'd stick with their "programmed mind".

If you watch both sides, the words "inappropriate" get to a totally different meaning, because they are "communication direction" dependent or perspective dependent.
Well, NTs can communicate quite "inappropriately" too.

Of most practical relevance is, however, to make the aspie get along with this typical NT behaviour, and to find his/her own way to get things communicated "through"
In relationships, however, both perspectives should be as equally as possible considered. And here, the NT might have it as difficult as the aspie to get his/her feelings "through into the brain of the partner"

We are just sort of asking for permission to be different and for recognition. Recognition as a minority.
Yeah, but that sh***y old human nature isn't ready for this.

And so sad, that they are not able to make this difference between anti-social behaviour and our strangeness.
If they'd listen more carefully they'd clearly spot the difference...
Well, some do, and that's always a nice thing

What is actually the reason why you would think that impaired empathy would always lead to negative behaviours?
And what is negative? Should we just try to comfort everyone or what? I mean I try always my best to be consistent and friendly, open.
This is quite a threat to me, because I am vulnerable through that. And then there are people like that would react like "what do you want?"
I mean most of us try to be empathetic and adapt on mistakes, as long as we are able to recognise them and process them "within our personalities".

Quote:
Empathy strictly defined as the ability to accurately read and mirror the emotions of others, to truly see though another's eyes


That I want to see how empathetic an NT can be towards an aspie

You'd need common ground and because NT and aspie feelings are different, how should the other be empathetic to the other. You'd have to learn it. Like a baby child or whatever.

So the learning process is the most essential part of empathy.

I feel like that our empathic learning process is different or, if you want to say so "impaired" because we cannot take into account facial expressions or body language at a normal level. But these are really important for the learning process. Right? That would somehow make sense

And that would also mean that you can maybe develop more normally if you'd get enough help when you are learning empathy.

Can you force on a switch to normally account for facial expressions and body language?
If yes then that's one possibility

But I doubt that our brain can handle that, because that would trigger an overload, which will automatically make you feel bad.
Tolerance to overload? I think it is already trained to a quite high level, so some small potential improvements may be possible, here also.



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06 Nov 2012, 1:03 am

I think it all comes down for a lot of people with AS to communication....there is a link broken somewhwere along the line that makes it difficult to read people..but as for empathy..i don't have a problem, i can show and feel happiness and sadness in all situations..the problem for me is how to express these feelings.....we are all different and although some people might seem to show no empathy i'm sure it's there but they have problems in showing it!..so people think they have none...WRONG in my case anyway it's how to communicate this to others that i have the problem with.



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09 Nov 2012, 7:05 pm

I was diagnosed at the CLASS clinic, it is run by Pro Baron- Cohen. He has no time for internet forums. Sadly.


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onks
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10 Nov 2012, 7:46 am

davidgolfpro wrote:
I was diagnosed at the CLASS clinic, it is run by Pro Baron- Cohen. He has no time for internet forums. Sadly.


Well some of his people are probably every now and then scanning this forum for some ideas. If I were a researcher in that field then Id do it.

If you're not yourself on the spectrum then you should use all info that is available,
especially those ones that are about AS related feelings.
things that you cant experience as NT.



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04 Jan 2013, 6:35 pm

I've spent a lot of time considering empathy and have done some serious degree of research; I got a suggested diagnosis of Aspergers from a therapist who extensively deals with AS children last year, and have a nephew who is autistic, which added to my thoughts.

I have some situationally impaired empathy; I'm a sexual sadist, and can find enjoyment in the suffering of another, but only in a sexual context, only consensually and I hate the concept of injury or damage even in that context. I'm not cruel in normal situations with family, friends and strangers. I do deeply feel that for me, my distance to a subject effects my affective empathy towards someone. I don't feel grief, disgust or so on for disconnected or conflicting situations, but do for direct relationships or observations.

I am not saying AS has anything to do with my sadism (my childhood probably had a lot to do with that,) but I do have a lot of experience considering empathy.

Baron-Cohen said in his 2004 EQ paper that CE and AE were interconnected, and thus the initial paper didn't try to separate the concepts. The issue is that cognitive empathy is a filter for affective empathy, not only externally but internally too, when we consider our own affective empathy. Also, like quantum mechanics, the test can effect the result. Asking about an empathetic choice includes our own judgement in the answer, and clearly people don't *want* to be unfeeling; that's the realm of NPD and ASPD... and regardless, we DO feel.

The additional physiological testing B-C includes in his EQ testing is certainly a noble goal but they arent determinative clearly. There really aren't good ways of separating CE from AE in testing thus far.

I've read the thread here, and understand that the AS community doesn't like the idea of being labelled "empathy imparired", but there IS a reason why there are social impairments within AS beyond anxiety. Thus far, impaired ToM fits better than any other, has not been disproven and no serious competing theory has been advanced.

I don't buy the criticism that the EQ in autism study is self referential (that autistic people are empathy impared because of this test I designed and visa versa). Clearly the test is seeking an answer to help explain one of the completely obvious tennets of autism; that of social impairment.

If there is an alternate, figure out a method to test it, create a statically valid study including controls, and publish it.