Email from WP to ARC request debate on WP with S.B Cohen.

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aghogday
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19 Jul 2011, 12:32 am

Dantac wrote:
I don't see what the argument would be about. Its true.


Mirror neurons are always found to not function at all in people with autism and have very low activation rates (or outright lack of) in people with AS that have been tested. NT's always have those neurons working in perfect order.


Recent studies suggest Mirror Neurons are functional in some people with Autism.

https://sfari.org/news-and-commentary/open-article/-/asset_publisher/6Tog/content/broken-mirror-concept-of-autism-challenged#ref1

Perhaps a more interesting article here. How much environment affects the ability for empathy.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/entertainment/feel+really/1021915/story.html

These empathy problems are far from limited to Autistic people. For a proper study all the environmental factors would need to be taken into account also. I don't think it would be possible to isolate environmental factors; there is too many, and everyone is influenced differently by them depending on their life experience. Research has suggested that some people have more sensitive mirror neurons than others. However, all these environmental factors can desensitize anyone to empathy, if applied in copious quantities.

I mentioned it in another post but they train the military going into combat with violent video games to desensitize them to the empathy that can freeze them in a combat situation when they can't pull the trigger, when faced with killing another human being. Not much choice in the harsh reality of combat, either kill or be killed.

I've heard some people here comment that they feel a great deal of empathy when watching a movie, but none with a real person. Normal people that have been abused by another individual, wouldn't feel the same empathy for that person than they would someone that has loved them and nurtured them. A simple brain scan can't possibly determine for sure whether or not it is a result of environment or genetics, or just the circumstance. For instance if a Autistic person hates sports, they are hooked up to a brain scan, and don't show much mirror neuron activity when the are showed a baseball game; is it because their mirror neurons are defective, or because they hate baseball?

And regarding people with Autism how many factors below would influence Autistic people more than the general population? It's also a snowball effect, isolation and social abuse can lead to stress, stress can lead to the loss of feelings of empathy, and the loss of feelings of empathy can lead to less motivation to interact with others leading to social isolation...... it can be hard to break out of the cycle, once an individual is in it. It's a little hard to understand which came first no feelings of empathy or conditions that lead to no feelings of empathy.

There also may be a danger here in the idea of not forgiving others or blaming the world for one's problems. It could be a self fulfilling prophecy.


Quote:
10 things that make us less empathetic

1) Fear. Fear can cut people off from their natural empathic tendencies, as self-preservation sometimes trumps concern for others.

2) TV. Watch someone watching TV: You often see a blank-faced trance. Adbusters magazine recently featured a frightening montage of children's unfeeling faces as they watch TV.

3) Stress. According to Mary Gordon, founder of Roots of Empathy, brains bathed in cortisol, one of the main stress hormones, apparently have difficulty empathizing.

4) Isolation. Studies have shown that people with more active social lives tend to be more empathetic.

5) Environments. There is some evidence that environment affects mental states. People who live in bland, ugly environments may become less empathetic.

6) Narcissism. People obsessed with themselves naturally can have trouble feeling for others.

7) Childhood neglect. Childhood neglect is seen as a key factor in the failure of people to develop basic empathy.

8) Unresolved trauma. According to psychologists, unresolved traumas may block natural empathic ability.

9) Some video games. Spending hours blowing away faceless entities may both undermine empathy and reinforce narcissism.

10) War. War is probably the ultimate de-empathizing trend. To bomb people, you need to not care about them.

10 things that make us more empathetic

1) Being around empathetic people. Mary Gordon, founder of Roots of Empathy, says empathy is taught by putting people in a "soup" of empathic behaviour. Empathy is emotional and contagious by nature, and cannot be taught intellectually or with stern lectures.

2) Listening. Just the act of listening to people can produce empathic behaviour, as long as they are not too boring.

3) Mirroring. People can practise empathic behaviour by mirroring or imitating other people. It may be the act of mirroring increases the activation of mirror neurons, which in turn improve empathy. However, mirroring can also be obnoxious.

4) Arts. Classical music, live concerts, live theatre, good movies ... As empathy is driven by sensory awareness, anything that amplifies the senses may increase empathy.

5) Suffering. Strangely, suffering and pain tend to produce empathy. It may be that people need to learn to empathize with themselves before they can empathize with others.

6) Caring for babies. Caring for babies and infants can naturally produce empathy. Generally, we are built to empathize with babies to an extent. However, small babies are examples of pre-empathetic behaviour as they can drive their parents to the edge, without seeming to care.

7) SInging. Singing in groups produces empathetic behaviour as harmonizing requires advanced mirroring.

8) Laughter. Because of its connective contagious nature, regular group laughter seems to improve empathic behaviour.

9) Animals. Although some see over-empathizing with animals as a sign that someone can't empathize with people, animals can be empathy-inducing. A special centre in West Bolton, in the Eastern Townships, uses animals to help treat autistic children.

10) Chick flicks. Although it's hard for me to say this, so-called chick flicks may be excellent exercises for the empathy-impaired. Although men generally resist them, chick flicks may create the "empathy soup" effect that allows contagious empathy.


When the cashier at Mcdonalds is abused these days because the fries were ten seconds late, what causes that? Autism? I don't think so. Much of it is related to expectation, experience, and a lack of empathy for others. What causes that? People didn't always act this way, when the stakes are so low; it happens all the time now. It's obvious that our culture is impacting most everything everyone does. It doesn't require a diagnosis.

I would imagine that those that are Autistic that have suffered a great deal at the hands of others, and never learn to dislike people, have more empathy than most, whether or not they can feel it or not.

I'm not stating here that the environment causes no empathy and that causes Autism. But it seems to me that in some cases, it might make the difference in someone seeking a diagnosis vs. someone not seeking a diagnosis.



aghogday
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19 Jul 2011, 1:13 am

Regarding the ARC organization, I doubt they would discuss this in a public forum, however if I remember correctly, RDOS, a member here with the Neanderthal Theory of Autism had some email correspondence with SBC, regarding his theory. If we presented serious objective ideas by email, that differ from what they have considered before, we might get a couple of back and forth emails to get the ARC viewpoint.

In my opinion a better approach might be to not ask for a public debate, and focus on a smaller goal for private email correspondence. If they respond with a viewpoint, that might be the time to ask them if they are interested in coming here for discussion.

But, I seriously doubt they are going to be interested in debating their ideas vs our ideas; it might be better presented as a request for discussion to discuss our ideas, leaving their ideas completely out of the conversation. In fact, I wouldn't mention the word debate or mention any of their research in any correspondence, if we want the best possibility of them ever actually coming here to discuss our ideas with us.



memesplice
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19 Jul 2011, 1:35 am

I have a hangover.

I got to go and hit things with hammers.

Duh-ouch x 8 hours.

Will think on this one.

Using 'tractor beam' would be rude and most likely interpreted as a hostile act.

They have probably read this already.



Meame.



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19 Jul 2011, 9:07 pm

Hog, when you stick that list in, I hope you're saying "us" as in humanity in general, not ASD peeps specifically. Because if you're saying that list is specific to us - ASD us, I'm gonna add a post tearing it to shreds.



aghogday
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20 Jul 2011, 2:00 am

OddFiction wrote:
Hog, when you stick that list in, I hope you're saying "us" as in humanity in general, not ASD peeps specifically. Because if you're saying that list is specific to us - ASD us, I'm gonna add a post tearing it to shreds.


That was not my wording, it is part of the quote from the link I provided from the MontrealGazette. The article has nothing to do with autism; it's about empathy, in general. It's pertinent to environmental factors, and which ones cause people to lose or gain empathy. I used in support of my opinion that this lack of feelings of empathy issue isn't isolated to Autistic people, and certainly not indicative of all Autistic people.



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20 Jul 2011, 9:20 am

Oddfiction if we are going to shread anything maybe we look at the internal logic of ToM and start testing for structural weakness. I think I have identified on possible area, It may be we do not want to destroy ToM, rather modify it to meet mutually acceptable forms of description and understanding. There are certainly parallel models which seem as strong-as, and a possible fusion of these models may move us all on from our current opposed position.

Here, those like ahogday are suggesting environmental factors may be useful in building part of the potential fused model. Environment does not explain everything but it contains elements of useful understanding from which we can build a unified approach.

This may be one goal- a more unifed field theory drawing on different disciplines.

Dealing with NT's requires a degree of carrot and stick. The first raised stake in the game is I am contacting Dr Thomas S. Szasz, ( Emeritus professor NYSU) to see if he will peer review our approach
and lend support, perhaps he or one of his collegues will make first contact if we are initially ignored by ARC.

This is not a threat or hostile act , merely a status equilization which is required for communication to commence- it seems normal NT proceedure in these matters.

I am doing that now.

The' tractor beam' is not yet engaged , this involves using a number of agencies to bring the debate about, if ARC are not forthcoming. This is a fun game. They should understand it is our 'sport' and play.

Meme

Update : email sent to Dr. T Szasz and Dr J Schaller.



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21 Jul 2011, 6:30 pm

on the logic of ToM

ok there is a classic experiment that I recall from college on this subject.
you have a doll house 1st Molly (the doll) goes into a room in the doll house and has a marble
she hides this marble in a box in the room now she leaves.
Next Fred (another doll) comes into the room and takes Molly's marble from its hiding place and moves it to the closet.

now the observer is asked where Molly will go to find her marble. The ToM argument is that only the Autistic will say to look in the closet 1st (because we know that is where it is as opposed to being able to view the situation through Molly's eyes and look in the box then panic) . is this a lack of understanding her emotions, or a cold view of her, or a reality that giving the logical response that is most accurate is just an inherent part of some of us.


You could even say that in a case like my own (my father has a PHD from Caltec and has just retired from being a professor at Uconn, and, yes I could do the 90's version of Tim Page's book) I grew up in a world of science, I had more friends who were grad students then were my own age, (oddly enough no one caught on to the why of "little professor").
I make this argument because I believe that prior to its being recognized as a diagnosis achademia was where many of us found a home. (like the brilliant guy with no social skills isn't a stereotype for scientists already).

ok i am not sure where the second half of this was goin g either, but In case i can put together no better coherient conclusion, i'll just post as is


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memesplice
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22 Jul 2011, 3:14 am

I went through a stage where I could never understand how a doll with plastic eyes could have basic sensory awareness , let alone see around a room to find a hidden marble. I think I would have failed this test completely and not been able to express this inbailty to anthromorph a doll to the reseacher. I would have thought it was a lie test to see if I would fall for the NT trick of trying to get me to believe they had a doll that could see. Which I would not have fallen for at this stage and refused to play the game. I have survived to the age of nearly 50 and this is a more useful skill than marble finding, I think.



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24 Jul 2011, 8:13 am

I agree that the doll test seems kind of unimportant. After all, when will we ever have to turn into a doll to go and find a marble? I suppose it's meant to be used to determine whether we can put ourselves in the shoes of others, but it does seem that they could surely find better examples.

There will always be a few autistic people who think about the test and figure it out, or non-autistic people who give the wrong answer.

I don't think that we lack in empathy in any such way. The way many people put it is incredibly unfair. Some seem to believe that we are unfeeling and do not ever take others into consideration etc. which is completely untrue. People on the spectrum can be incredibly caring and generous even though it might appear in a different way and they might not express it in the same way as an NT.

Though the fact that you might give what seems at the time like the logical answer as a child on the doll test, that doesn't mean that you don't understand that other people have minds and feelings. I think empathy is often defined in the wrong way and the way that people interpret/think about empathy should be challenged.

I like the entire e-mail of the debate or the e-mails to try and make a difference and get our ideas/opinions heard as well as trying to learn more about those opinions as others.

Even though we might not all be scientists or phsychologists there are some things you can only really know about the mind of someone on the spectrum if you are on the spectrum. NT people will interpret things their way and therefore there needs to be a mix of ideas from both sides :)



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24 Jul 2011, 9:15 am

memesplice wrote:
SyphonFilter wrote:
I like the sci-fi aspects to your letter.


Er yes, but is it enough to intiate first contact?

Do you think it should be more serious?

Will they understand this is us playing and being serious at the same time?

These are important questions.

Meme


I don't think they will understand the humour, I would leave it out and stick to the serious but polite tone.



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24 Jul 2011, 1:40 pm

[q
I don't think they will understand the humour, I would leave it out and stick to the serious but polite tone.[/quote]

Hmm, we don't want to fighten them off. I would be wary about stepping on board this vessel if I were an NT.

This is intended a friendly open communication. I am currently scanning their Twitter communications and hopefully some may respond to messages left there.

I'm inviting them to join in a light-hearted take on sociology . If any of them turn up for this it might be worth encouraging them to return here to debate on a more serious note once they realise the nature of this diplomatic mission.

I will keep hailing them in the hope they respond.

They are certainly aware of our interest in them .

If anyone else has an idea of how to operate the communication called Twitter please feel free to comtact them. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me and I'm not actually sure they can read the messages.

Meme



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24 Jul 2011, 2:24 pm

ForestRose wrote:
I agree that the doll test seems kind of unimportant. After all, when will we ever have to turn into a doll to go and find a marble? I suppose it's meant to be used to determine whether we can put ourselves in the shoes of others, but it does seem that they could surely find better examples.

There will always be a few autistic people who think about the test and figure it out, or non-autistic people who give the wrong answer.

I don't think that we lack in empathy in any such way. The way many people put it is incredibly unfair. Some seem to believe that we are unfeeling and do not ever take others into consideration etc. which is completely untrue. People on the spectrum can be incredibly caring and generous even though it might appear in a different way and they might not express it in the same way as an NT.

Though the fact that you might give what seems at the time like the logical answer as a child on the doll test, that doesn't mean that you don't understand that other people have minds and feelings. I think empathy is often defined in the wrong way and the way that people interpret/think about empathy should be challenged.

I like the entire e-mail of the debate or the e-mails to try and make a difference and get our ideas/opinions heard as well as trying to learn more about those opinions as others.

Even though we might not all be scientists or phsychologists there are some things you can only really know about the mind of someone on the spectrum if you are on the spectrum. NT people will interpret things their way and therefore there needs to be a mix of ideas from both sides :)


Well said Forestrose.



aghogday
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24 Jul 2011, 6:50 pm

@memesplice

Dog vs. Wolf empathy:

Research suggests Dogs have empathy for humans, and Wolves can learn it if they are associated with humans.

http://yourlife.usatoday.com/parenting-family/pets/dogs/story/2011/07/Dogs-adept-at-reading-peoples-minds/49607122/1

But levels of sensitivity did vary by how domesticated the dog or wolf was.

Quote:
"Domesticated dogs were more likely to beg from someone paying attention to them, but shelter dogs and wolves who don't often see a person reading books were not likely to get that cue," Udell related. "So it does seem like specific life experiences really do matter in this context."

The findings, said Udell, are "important because previous research suggested that something happened to dogs during genetic domestication that made them begin to think like humans. This shows that wolves are capable, if reared with humans, of (picking up human cues)."




Of course, dogs have no purposeful hidden agendas. Maybe that's why some people have more faith in them than humans; I don't think that is just an AS reality.

Why is it that people with Autism are less likely to have hidden agenda's. It's easier for others to understand the hidden agendas because often they are not hidden from others "in the know".

Competition and Cooperation, I think are an equal part of social interaction.

Is it just because we are not as interested in interaction, perhaps lost in ourselves and sensation more than most, not as concerned about competition and cooperation as others are?

I had friends come to the conlusion that I was f**king with people's minds, because I was too smart not to be able to understand what the hidden agendas in what seemed like "secret" slang terms that were being used. Terms of endearment, and slang that bonded groups of people never did anything for me, but it obviously had a bonding affect for others, not unlike when people gossip among themselves.

If I had google back then, I could have at least figured out was the slang meant, but I probably wouldn't have used it if I new what it meant, because if it didn't match the correct picture in my mind I couldn't do it. I think the only word I ever used was "cool" because it represented a relaxing sensation rather than a picture. Sweet was a picture of a nice person in my head, I can't bring myself to change it to represent a sharing of something good that happens in life..

It's a different way of thinking, one which is more meaning specific, I think. Maybe it has something to do with relying more on visual imagery than words when some of us think.

Another example I have heard here is not being able to call people nicknames, when we know their real name. And by nicknames I don't mean alternate normal names, I mean things they that they literally aren't to me like "bull", "grandpa", Bear, Ma. As I look back I clearly remember people like me that would never use the nicknames, and they all seemed to have my same rigid way of thinking.

Why don't we stray off the sidewalk? It seems to me that if it doesn't match what we see as reality, it is hard for us to venture out further to explore the land of emotion and bonding that may motivate others to participate in it.

I don't think we get the same benefit out of it as others do but I'm not sure if it is environment or genetics and the resulting structure/plasticity of our brains that make us one of the few in the group that don't usually participate with the slang and nicknames of others.



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24 Jul 2011, 10:53 pm

Mirror Neurons are their problem, we were spared from living a reflection of our suroundings.

Sometimes I try, but when I read their state of mind I try to put them at ease by petting their head and giving a scratch behind the ears.

Simon my man! Let me put it in the greatest words ever spoken for you. "Frankly my dear, I do not give a damn." It is not that I missed the signal, I just ignored it.

While I do have goals and missions, reading how you are upset because the tea is not hot does not help fix the computer. Seeing me as rejecting your humanity is seeing clearly. You have been living in a world of pandering, I invite you to join non pandering. I have studied your type, traffic is the last place to have an emotional reaction to thing beyond your control. Accept that, and you could accept me.

We do have the same mirror neurons, by ours are tuned to the physical world. How could anyone think they could do research while being most concerned with the mental state of the people working around you?

Besides that, why is it you all copy word for word anything that has been published before, without question? I have to question the present, and past, before I can take a shot at the future. If the future had to fit all prior work, because it was peer reviewed and published, we would be stuck in a mess that would look just like today.

Science has to be done with an open mind, forgetting what you learned is a good start. Just like no one invents anything, it was always there, just waiting for an open mind to see it.



aghogday
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24 Jul 2011, 11:16 pm

Inventor wrote:
Mirror Neurons are their problem, we were spared from living a reflection of our suroundings.

Sometimes I try, but when I read their state of mind I try to put them at ease by petting their head and giving a scratch behind the ears.

Simon my man! Let me put it in the greatest words ever spoken for you. "Frankly my dear, I do not give a damn." It is not that I missed the signal, I just ignored it.

While I do have goals and missions, reading how you are upset because the tea is not hot does not help fix the computer. Seeing me as rejecting your humanity is seeing clearly. You have been living in a world of pandering, I invite you to join non pandering. I have studied your type, traffic is the last place to have an emotional reaction to thing beyond your control. Accept that, and you could accept me.

We do have the same mirror neurons, by ours are tuned to the physical world. How could anyone think they could do research while being most concerned with the mental state of the people working around you?

Besides that, why is it you all copy word for word anything that has been published before, without question? I have to question the present, and past, before I can take a shot at the future. If the future had to fit all prior work, because it was peer reviewed and published, we would be stuck in a mess that would look just like today.

Science has to be done with an open mind, forgetting what you learned is a good start. Just like no one invents anything, it was always there, just waiting for an open mind to see it.


I've never had much emotional response to traffic either; never attributed it to AS, but as I remember quite a few of the other people I have driven with are highly reactive to that type of thing.

I have found it to be a bit overstimulating at times, moreso when I was stressed by other things.



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25 Jul 2011, 8:44 am

Fascinating discussion meme. I wish I'd seen it sooner.

If polled, I'd vote for open discussion/conversation, with some kind of time limit, end point, to allay fears that it will just go on and on. Public rather than private, would give them a feeling of greater control.

One invitation is easy to ignore. One invitation per week is, (eventually), potentially embarassing when ignored.
As in..."Simon! How could you ignore those poor bastards, (who, after all, just want to talk to you,)week, after week, after week....?! !"

They really ought to look beyond children. Mature adults with high functioning Aspergers/ HFA, often develop quite good cognitive empathy. We sometimes lag in the moment, but often with the aid of visual thinking are able to develop excellent social pattern reasoning (cognitive empathy strung round with all sorts of real live feelings).

Just look at the career coices of women with Aspergers. Cognitive psychologist and social worker, are popular choices, as are other types of the caring professions, (re. Women From Another Planet.)

The Sally/ Ann and Molly/ Fred Tests are skewed by visual thinking perseveration. They don't actually test empathy. Not in an universal sense anyway. Auditory sequential thinkers usually come up with the worst, most ridiculous experiments/ tests for visual minds.

If this is the same Dr. Thomas Szasz, (and really how many could there be?) who is billed as "The Psychiatric Abolitionist", I rather doubt he'd be viewed as neutral. I'd vote for Dr. Elyn R. Saks, not that, that would ever happen.

I think an exchange of opinion and ideas with professionals, who speak for us and about us, to the dominant culture, is an excellent idea. It's looooooong overdue.

plantwhisperer