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Apple_in_my_Eye
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24 Oct 2011, 11:27 pm

The majority of modern countries have some form of social security and socialized heath care, so I think the current attitudes may be particular to now and the USA.

I think maybe life has been too good for too long, and that people have forgotten why those safety nets were built in the first place. There is a story that a guy who was part of Ron Paul's campaign team who opted not to buy health insurance, got pneumonia, and died of it. I could be wrong, but I bet that guy never saw or knew anyone who died of pneumonia. He probably thought he was making an educated gamble, but mis-estimated because we all now take for granted the great success of modern medicine.

It just seems to me that it's like having a good fence around your pasture to protect your flock and then thinking, "why do I need the fence? The wolves never come in here."



kfisherx
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25 Oct 2011, 12:19 am

Entitlement is such a big word and I still do not see how it ties to ASD as a culture.

You can tie it to the millenium generation IMHO though. In our generation and the one prior HARD WORK was valued as a culture. The generation under mine valued work/life balance and thankfully help to change our culture to more sane lives. The millenium generation has neither conecept but is about "more for less" or "at a push of a buttong". (I am not making this stuff up btw. Facts from people who study generations) I find this a bit offputting and even see it as entitlement. I hear how there are no jobs but then see the kids who do work hard go out and find work. What is equating to "no jobs" is more about "no jobs that I WANT to do" versus no actual jobs. At the same time, I am watching this same generation emerge into our coroporate world at Intel and am excited to see what its brightest come up with. If they can make "more for less" actually happen they will be the most awesom generation yet.

Until then, I call them entitled. :D :D :D



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25 Oct 2011, 12:29 am

mori_pastel wrote:
But then, this ties into the tone argument. Should people who are discriminated against phrase all their demands for equality politely if they want to be taken seriously? Nobody likes those protesters who rant and rave. The general consensus is that if you really want to change the world, you do it by polite lobbying. But the tone argument takes a different perspective. If you have been discriminated against, put down, and made to suffer because of your difference, are you not justified in expressing your anger? If someone comes over and punches you in the face, do you politely ask them to stop or do you retaliate? It's not irrational to express anger when you have been wronged. The world isn't just. Nobody knows that better than people who are subject to injustices. But is this enough to excuse the various inflammatory arguments individuals within a minority often make?


The tone argument is not strictly "Stop being so angry." It's more, everything you say is made out to be angry. You can be more polite than Miss Manners and people will still twist your words and accuse you of excessive anger - and this has happened to me.

I think you're overgeneralizing the concept of "privilege" and how useful or useless it is. I agree that a lot of people online have a very black and white perspective on the concept and tend to take it sometimes to inflammatory degrees or use the concepts to harass or bully others, but the concept itself is sociologically sound and much of it has been found to be relatively sound via research.

Privilege is simply a matter of the fact that society is biased toward and benefits some people over others. It's not a strictly linear thing because this bias comes along multiple axes, so all men are not automatically more societally privileged than all women, but generally speaking all else being equal men tend to receive more benefits for being men than women receive for being women. There's also being straight or lesbian, gay, or bisexual. There's being cisgender or transgender, there's being a person of color or being white, there's being a disabled person or a temporarily abled person, and so on. It's not entitlement to make arguments about these disparities in power and wealth. They're real, and they're unjust, and they shouldn't exist. People who are members of marginalized groups don't necessarily work any less hard than people who are less marginalized (hardly anyone is not marginalized in any way), but their work will nearly always be worth less economically than less marginalized people.

That said, I think that the way people talk about privilege online is often terrible and inaccurate. It's often used to eclipse all the challenges some people might face, or minimize them in some way. It can be used in an accusatory fashion to silence people. It can be used to bully people. Overall, I don't participate in many social justice conversations because I tend to think they go off the rails online. But the basic concepts are sound.



OJani
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25 Oct 2011, 4:38 am

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
IME most people (ASD & NT) are not good with empathy across a gap. So, if you have, say, sensory issues that someone else doesn't, then that person may decide that you, "want everything your way -- just so," "you are spoiled," and "you have a sense of entitlement." It's like when people get jealous of disabled people using the blue handicapped parking spots. Somehow people forget the part about how they aren't disabled/effected such they actually need that spot in order to buy food to maintain their survival.

This is a good point (along with btbnnyr's), besides mori_pastel's two.



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25 Oct 2011, 9:43 am

marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I think that anyone - Autie, Aspie, or Entie - who does little to prepare themselves for an opportunity, and then carries on about how unfair it is that those who do make such preparations can exploit the opportunity and become wealthy, popular, influential, et cetera, has an exaggerated sense of entitlement.
Do that many aspies/auties really want to become wealthy, popular, or influential? Most I know just want live more happily and be free of perpetual anxiety.

Many people have found that living happily and free from anxiety involves becoming wealthy, popular, influential, or any combination thereof. Think about it ... with all of those attributes, you could hire others to manage your more mundane tasks (housework, yard-work, general cleaning and maintenance), as well as those tasks that are irritating or anxiety-inducing (meetings, bill-paying, shopping, organizing). You could say to your employee, "do this", and it would be done while you read, paint, sculpt, learn a new language, et cetera.

No more hassles, and plenty of time to develop your own interests. What could be better?


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kfisherx
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25 Oct 2011, 11:00 am

Fnord wrote:
marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I think that anyone - Autie, Aspie, or Entie - who does little to prepare themselves for an opportunity, and then carries on about how unfair it is that those who do make such preparations can exploit the opportunity and become wealthy, popular, influential, et cetera, has an exaggerated sense of entitlement.
Do that many aspies/auties really want to become wealthy, popular, or influential? Most I know just want live more happily and be free of perpetual anxiety.

Many people have found that living happily and free from anxiety involves becoming wealthy, popular, influential, or any combination thereof. Think about it ... with all of those attributes, you could hire others to manage your more mundane tasks (housework, yard-work, general cleaning and maintenance), as well as those tasks that are irritating or anxiety-inducing (meetings, bill-paying, shopping, organizing). You could say to your employee, "do this", and it would be done while you read, paint, sculpt, learn a new language, et cetera.

No more hassles, and plenty of time to develop your own interests. What could be better?


Uh.... You're kidding right? The more people I hire, the more stress I have. It doesn't work like you post AT ALL. Wow....



marshall
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25 Oct 2011, 11:34 am

Fnord wrote:
marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I think that anyone - Autie, Aspie, or Entie - who does little to prepare themselves for an opportunity, and then carries on about how unfair it is that those who do make such preparations can exploit the opportunity and become wealthy, popular, influential, et cetera, has an exaggerated sense of entitlement.
Do that many aspies/auties really want to become wealthy, popular, or influential? Most I know just want live more happily and be free of perpetual anxiety.

Many people have found that living happily and free from anxiety involves becoming wealthy, popular, influential, or any combination thereof. Think about it ... with all of those attributes, you could hire others to manage your more mundane tasks (housework, yard-work, general cleaning and maintenance), as well as those tasks that are irritating or anxiety-inducing (meetings, bill-paying, shopping, organizing). You could say to your employee, "do this", and it would be done while you read, paint, sculpt, learn a new language, et cetera.

No more hassles, and plenty of time to develop your own interests. What could be better?

I think that's overly simplistic. Having employee's do things for you can be more stressful than doing them yourself if you're a perfectionist like myself. I know someone on the spectrum who tried to run his own business and hire employees. Dealing with employees was too stressful and he quit. Being popular also has its own anxieties. Make one personal mistake or social blunder and you have to deal with negative publicity. People tend to look up to public figures, but at the same time they can be unreasonably unforgiving and critical.

Most people aren't interested in your definition of "success". Most people just want a steady income doing something they can tolerate and not have to worry about losing the roof over their head. Most physically and mentally healthy people are okay with working to support themselves. They aren't okay with having to constantly worry about not being able to support themselves.



mori_pastel
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25 Oct 2011, 11:44 am

Verdandi wrote:
The tone argument is not strictly "Stop being so angry." It's more, everything you say is made out to be angry. You can be more polite than Miss Manners and people will still twist your words and accuse you of excessive anger - and this has happened to me.


Oh, huh. Haven't heard that. I've been relying mostly on other people's definition of the tone argument. Maybe I was looking in the wrong places, but when I first came across the term and started googling, there didn't seem to be a concise definition. Or even a functional definition. 0-0 Just lots of people arguing.

Verdandi wrote:
I think you're overgeneralizing the concept of "privilege" and how useful or useless it is. I agree that a lot of people online have a very black and white perspective on the concept and tend to take it sometimes to inflammatory degrees or use the concepts to harass or bully others, but the concept itself is sociologically sound and much of it has been found to be relatively sound via research.
. . .
That said, I think that the way people talk about privilege online is often terrible and inaccurate. It's often used to eclipse all the challenges some people might face, or minimize them in some way. It can be used in an accusatory fashion to silence people. It can be used to bully people. Overall, I don't participate in many social justice conversations because I tend to think they go off the rails online. But the basic concepts are sound.


Oh, yeah, I know. But that was just kind of my point. I'm not saying that the idea of privilege is incorrect. In fact, when I first came across the concept I really liked the perspective it takes. I get that the idea is sound, I've just never seen it used well in practice. Of course, I've only seen it in practice online.

It's almost become a warning sign. I'll be reading some social justice argument and then BAM! "The such-and-such privilege..." It's like the hourglass on a black widow. "Here there be dragons!" "This person is going to make a ridiculous argument."

Verdandi wrote:
Privilege is simply a matter of the fact that society is biased toward and benefits some people over others. It's not a strictly linear thing because this bias comes along multiple axes, so all men are not automatically more societally privileged than all women, but generally speaking all else being equal men tend to receive more benefits for being men than women receive for being women. There's also being straight or lesbian, gay, or bisexual. There's being cisgender or transgender, there's being a person of color or being white, there's being a disabled person or a temporarily abled person, and so on. It's not entitlement to make arguments about these disparities in power and wealth. They're real, and they're unjust, and they shouldn't exist. People who are members of marginalized groups don't necessarily work any less hard than people who are less marginalized (hardly anyone is not marginalized in any way), but their work will nearly always be worth less economically than less marginalized people.


How does that make the concept of "privilege" any different the concept of "discrimination"? I thought that the whole idea of privilege was that it took a different perspective than the "disabled" or "discrimination" perspective. Sort of instead of saying "we have less than you," saying "you have more than us." So it changed the perspective of "no discrimination" as normal and "discrimination" as an atypical detriment to "no discrimination" as a special benefit and "discrimination" as normal. I thought the whole point was to change the way people looked at those in minority groups.

And I kind of like that idea. Getting people to think "it's not that you're unnaturally cursed, it's me who is unnaturally blessed" would, at least in my opinion, make people a lot more grateful for what they do have and a lot more willing to help those who don't have. Because from that perspective, having a "normal" life isn't something you deserve. I guess what I'm saying is it seems like it'd make "normal" people feel less entitled to a normal life.



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25 Oct 2011, 3:01 pm

kfisherx wrote:
Fnord wrote:
marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I think that anyone - Autie, Aspie, or Entie - who does little to prepare themselves for an opportunity, and then carries on about how unfair it is that those who do make such preparations can exploit the opportunity and become wealthy, popular, influential, et cetera, has an exaggerated sense of entitlement.
Do that many aspies/auties really want to become wealthy, popular, or influential? Most I know just want live more happily and be free of perpetual anxiety.
Many people have found that living happily and free from anxiety involves becoming wealthy, popular, influential, or any combination thereof. Think about it ... with all of those attributes, you could hire others to manage your more mundane tasks (housework, yard-work, general cleaning and maintenance), as well as those tasks that are irritating or anxiety-inducing (meetings, bill-paying, shopping, organizing). You could say to your employee, "do this", and it would be done while you read, paint, sculpt, learn a new language, et cetera. No more hassles, and plenty of time to develop your own interests. What could be better?
Uh.... You're kidding right? The more people I hire, the more stress I have. It doesn't work like you post AT ALL. Wow....

I'm not kidding. Please re-read the part in bold type. "Many" is not "All". Perhaps being in charge of so many people is not in your best interest. Maybe you would feel better if you cut a few of them loose...


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Fnord
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25 Oct 2011, 3:04 pm

marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I think that anyone - Autie, Aspie, or Entie - who does little to prepare themselves for an opportunity, and then carries on about how unfair it is that those who do make such preparations can exploit the opportunity and become wealthy, popular, influential, et cetera, has an exaggerated sense of entitlement.
Do that many aspies/auties really want to become wealthy, popular, or influential? Most I know just want live more happily and be free of perpetual anxiety.
Many people have found that living happily and free from anxiety involves becoming wealthy, popular, influential, or any combination thereof. Think about it ... with all of those attributes, you could hire others to manage your more mundane tasks (housework, yard-work, general cleaning and maintenance), as well as those tasks that are irritating or anxiety-inducing (meetings, bill-paying, shopping, organizing). You could say to your employee, "do this", and it would be done while you read, paint, sculpt, learn a new language, et cetera. No more hassles, and plenty of time to develop your own interests. What could be better?
I think that's overly simplistic...

It is, and there is a lot more to it than dumping one's needs and duties onto a mere hireling.

Many people also find fulfillment in complete simplification - meeting the minimum necessities while simultaneously ridding themselves of any pretense and desire. This seems to be the basis of Buddhism.


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25 Oct 2011, 3:13 pm

I love your cute new avatar, Marshall....

Anyway about people who are disabled being entitled, well I think a lot of us have missed out on so much in life already, I think we do deserve a bit of a break, and I think that it would be helpful if there were agencies which could help us into work which would be sustainable and not result in an eventual burnout.


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25 Oct 2011, 3:19 pm

Fnord wrote:
kfisherx wrote:
Fnord wrote:
marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I think that anyone - Autie, Aspie, or Entie - who does little to prepare themselves for an opportunity, and then carries on about how unfair it is that those who do make such preparations can exploit the opportunity and become wealthy, popular, influential, et cetera, has an exaggerated sense of entitlement.
Do that many aspies/auties really want to become wealthy, popular, or influential? Most I know just want live more happily and be free of perpetual anxiety.
Many people have found that living happily and free from anxiety involves becoming wealthy, popular, influential, or any combination thereof. Think about it ... with all of those attributes, you could hire others to manage your more mundane tasks (housework, yard-work, general cleaning and maintenance), as well as those tasks that are irritating or anxiety-inducing (meetings, bill-paying, shopping, organizing). You could say to your employee, "do this", and it would be done while you read, paint, sculpt, learn a new language, et cetera. No more hassles, and plenty of time to develop your own interests. What could be better?
Uh.... You're kidding right? The more people I hire, the more stress I have. It doesn't work like you post AT ALL. Wow....

I'm not kidding. Please re-read the part in bold type. "Many" is not "All". Perhaps being in charge of so many people is not in your best interest. Maybe you would feel better if you cut a few of them loose...


I am curious as to your experience with this and who these people (Many) are... I am afluent as are my peers and I know not one who would agree with this statement. We all agree that the more you have, the more responsibility it is... not less.



cubedemon6073
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25 Oct 2011, 3:41 pm

kfisherx wrote:
Fnord wrote:
kfisherx wrote:
Fnord wrote:
marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I think that anyone - Autie, Aspie, or Entie - who does little to prepare themselves for an opportunity, and then carries on about how unfair it is that those who do make such preparations can exploit the opportunity and become wealthy, popular, influential, et cetera, has an exaggerated sense of entitlement.
Do that many aspies/auties really want to become wealthy, popular, or influential? Most I know just want live more happily and be free of perpetual anxiety.
Many people have found that living happily and free from anxiety involves becoming wealthy, popular, influential, or any combination thereof. Think about it ... with all of those attributes, you could hire others to manage your more mundane tasks (housework, yard-work, general cleaning and maintenance), as well as those tasks that are irritating or anxiety-inducing (meetings, bill-paying, shopping, organizing). You could say to your employee, "do this", and it would be done while you read, paint, sculpt, learn a new language, et cetera. No more hassles, and plenty of time to develop your own interests. What could be better?
Uh.... You're kidding right? The more people I hire, the more stress I have. It doesn't work like you post AT ALL. Wow....

I'm not kidding. Please re-read the part in bold type. "Many" is not "All". Perhaps being in charge of so many people is not in your best interest. Maybe you would feel better if you cut a few of them loose...


I am curious as to your experience with this and who these people (Many) are... I am afluent as are my peers and I know not one who would agree with this statement. We all agree that the more you have, the more responsibility it is... not less.


Yes, I can imagine so. First, you have to make sure those you hire are doing their job. Second, you probably have to deal with all kinds of paperwork including making sure potential employees pass drug tests. I can't even imagine what you have to. You have to worry about making sure they paid as well. There are more tasks to do.



marshall
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25 Oct 2011, 7:33 pm

Fnord wrote:
marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I think that anyone - Autie, Aspie, or Entie - who does little to prepare themselves for an opportunity, and then carries on about how unfair it is that those who do make such preparations can exploit the opportunity and become wealthy, popular, influential, et cetera, has an exaggerated sense of entitlement.
Do that many aspies/auties really want to become wealthy, popular, or influential? Most I know just want live more happily and be free of perpetual anxiety.
Many people have found that living happily and free from anxiety involves becoming wealthy, popular, influential, or any combination thereof. Think about it ... with all of those attributes, you could hire others to manage your more mundane tasks (housework, yard-work, general cleaning and maintenance), as well as those tasks that are irritating or anxiety-inducing (meetings, bill-paying, shopping, organizing). You could say to your employee, "do this", and it would be done while you read, paint, sculpt, learn a new language, et cetera. No more hassles, and plenty of time to develop your own interests. What could be better?
I think that's overly simplistic...

It is, and there is a lot more to it than dumping one's needs and duties onto a mere hireling.

Many people also find fulfillment in complete simplification - meeting the minimum necessities while simultaneously ridding themselves of any pretense and desire. This seems to be the basis of Buddhism.


Okay fine. If someone thinks they should be able to lead the life of an aristocrat, be able to hire underlings to do everything for them while they pursue leisure activities 24/7, then they are probably full of it. Very few people get to live like that.

I think there's a difference between people who just don't want to do certain things for themselves because they think they are special and people who try to live on their own but find it nearly impossible to cope. There are fuzzy cases where people retreat and become dependent on family/welfare after experiencing extreme stress or burnout. It might partly be learned helplessness/fear leading to agoraphobia but at the same time they still can't cope with the level of stress that lead to the burnout. Taking the middle road would be so much better but that isn't the way things are set up. According to the government it's always black-and-white. Either you can work and are expected to be completely independent in everything or you're disabled and unable to work period. So yea, I think aspies who experience emotional burnouts and use that as an excuse to sit in their parents basement and play video games for the rest of their lives should definitely be pushed into being more productive. I just think it would be nice if society had a better middle ground. With the job market being so competitive these days there isn't any attention to accommodating people who have trouble coping with work.



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25 Oct 2011, 7:39 pm

zen_mistress wrote:
I love your cute new avatar, Marshall....

Anyway about people who are disabled being entitled, well I think a lot of us have missed out on so much in life already, I think we do deserve a bit of a break, and I think that it would be helpful if there were agencies which could help us into work which would be sustainable and not result in an eventual burnout.


Yeah I agree with this...sadly though it is more likely people expect you to just push even harder then the average person and not utter a single complaint about it.



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25 Oct 2011, 7:40 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Do a good chunk of us aspies have a huge sense of entitlement? Is this really true about a good chunk of us? If it really is and a lot of us have a huge sense of entitlement could this be a cause for a lot of our problems? Is this sense of entitlement really affecting the autism community in a very profound and negative way? If we do have a sense of entitlement my question is this. Is it possible to lose it? Has any person whether ASD or not ever had a sense of entitlement that they were able to get rid of? How did they do it and how did they make themselves better? Personally, I believe if aspies in general are to better their one of the first steps is to lose their sense of entitlement if they truly have it. Kfisherx, I invite would love for you to especially join this discussion.

It is true for a good chunk of western civilization and it has been demonized in the press. It is not a bad thing. Having a sense of entitlement is like having a sense of self esteem and it should be encouraged. People should not be hesitant to demand the best for themselves. Don't be cowed into thinking you do not deserve nothing but the best and as much as you can get. If you let yourself be brainwashed into thinking poverty is noble that is what you will be stuck in for the rest of your life.

Ask and ye shall receive as the saying goes.