Adults with Aspergers Seem 'Normal' to Me

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Verdandi
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21 Apr 2012, 7:37 am

melanieeee wrote:
criteria: not being able to differentiate between someone with aspergers and NTs


Under what conditions? On videos? During brief social interactions? During prolonged social interactions? What behaviors do you observe that are similar when looking at someone with AS and an NT?

Quote:
P.S. I am NOT arguing that an AS diagnosis means that one is not disabled, I am saying the majority (if not ALL) of the AS people I've met seem pretty normal to me.


You posted this:

melanieeee wrote:
If people with asperger's have practice communicating with NT's to the point that their type of communication is indistinguishable from that of a normal person, is it really a 'disability' then?

Maybe asperger's is a disorder which is predominate in childhood (like separation anxiety and bed wetting which may also occur in adulthood but to a smaller degree)?


What was your intention by asking if AS is really a disability?

In any event, I'm still not sure what your criteria for "normal" are. "Not being able to differentiate between Aspies and NTs" strikes me as fairly imprecise. Do you mean none of the Aspies you know fail to respond to tone of voice, to facial expressions, to body language? That they tend not to have flat affect (that is, a lack of expressiveness), or a lack of body language, and use tone of voice exactly the same way NTs do? That when NTs say one thing but mean another that the Aspies are flawlessly able to determine that hidden meaning? That the Aspies are able to communicate implied meanings in a similar fashion? That when NTs go into a novel social situation and are able to adapt to that situation based on their own social perceptions, that Aspies can do the same thing?

That Aspies can make small talk in an elevator or standing in line or riding the bus or an aircraft or a train, or while at a wedding or a funeral or a birthday party? That they don't become overwhelmed by adding more people to a social situation? That they always get jokes?

I'm trying to think of all the things that trip me up, and that's just a short list.

I don't understand what you're trying to get at.



melanieeee
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21 Apr 2012, 7:37 am

lundygirl wrote:
I agree with the comments about invisible disability. I have depression and also fibromyalgia - two invisible conditions which both affect me significantly and have a big impact on my life. People see me and say, aren't you looking well, you always seem so happy. They don't see what goes on behind the scenes, or guess that I'm pretending to be OK. In some respects, I think we become conditioned by society to behave a certain way, to grin and bear it and present a postive face to the world.

The best description I've read of invisible disabilities is that it's like a swan gliding across the water, apparently effortlessly. However, the swan's feet are working frantically underwater to keep it gliding so elegantly. All that effort remains hidden, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening!


See depression and fibromyalgia I understand, but AS is defined by social abnormalities and restrictive interests/repetitive behaviour. One should notice that easily.



Last edited by melanieeee on 21 Apr 2012, 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

melanieeee
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21 Apr 2012, 7:47 am

Verdandi wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
criteria: not being able to differentiate between someone with aspergers and NTs


Under what conditions? On videos? During brief social interactions? During prolonged social interactions? What behaviors do you observe that are similar when looking at someone with AS and an NT?

Quote:
P.S. I am NOT arguing that an AS diagnosis means that one is not disabled, I am saying the majority (if not ALL) of the AS people I've met seem pretty normal to me.


You posted this:

melanieeee wrote:
If people with asperger's have practice communicating with NT's to the point that their type of communication is indistinguishable from that of a normal person, is it really a 'disability' then?

Maybe asperger's is a disorder which is predominate in childhood (like separation anxiety and bed wetting which may also occur in adulthood but to a smaller degree)?


What was your intention by asking if AS is really a disability?


that was in response to another person's post on the invisible disability

Quote:
In any event, I'm still not sure what your criteria for "normal" are. "Not being able to differentiate between Aspies and NTs" strikes me as fairly imprecise. Do you mean none of the Aspies you know fail to respond to tone of voice, to facial expressions, to body language? That they tend not to have flat affect (that is, a lack of expressiveness), or a lack of body language, and use tone of voice exactly the same way NTs do? That when NTs say one thing but mean another that the Aspies are flawlessly able to determine that hidden meaning? That the Aspies are able to communicate implied meanings in a similar fashion? That when NTs go into a novel social situation and are able to adapt to that situation based on their own social perceptions, that Aspies can do the same thing?

That Aspies can make small talk in an elevator or standing in line or riding the bus or an aircraft or a train, or while at a wedding or a funeral or a birthday party? That they don't become overwhelmed by adding more people to a social situation? That they always get jokes?

I'm trying to think of all the things that trip me up, and that's just a short list.

I don't understand what you're trying to get at.


okay how was it that Han's Asperger was able to 'notice' that people who have AS were different to those who were NT's. he obviously had to notice that they behaved differently than NT's.



Marcia
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21 Apr 2012, 8:00 am

Hans Asperger was more highly educated, qualified, intelligent and observant?



melanieeee
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21 Apr 2012, 8:01 am

Okay let me try to explain this - in psychology there are two types of clinical disorder. There is 'internalising' disorders and 'externalsing' disorders.

Internalizing disorders refer to dysfunction within the self so for instances depression and anxiety. The problem is within the person.

Externalising disorders refer to when the dysfunction comes from externalities most often a result of a persons behavior. This includes personality disorders, oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder etc.

It is my understanding that AS is an external disorder. One should be able to readily observe the way a person acts is different to others.



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21 Apr 2012, 8:03 am

melanieeee wrote:

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I have meet a few people with aspergers and I have watched numerous videos of adults with aspergers and they seem don't really seem 'abnormal' to me...


It's probably just because your Autistic yourself, other people with Aspergers do seem to be a bit different to me, but I don't notice the difference as much as everyone else. To what extent it is a disorder in communication and other things I think depends on your point of view. I've engaged with other people with Aspergers just fine, in ways that seem "normal" to me. And then afterwards watched someone come along and talk to them as if they are a complete idiot, and the social interaction looked quite "abnormal." Only we can decide what communication is right for us.



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21 Apr 2012, 8:04 am

I am 39, I have an informal diagnosis from a GP who specializes in AS. Very few people know about my condition because I have 39 years practice hiding it. I can hold my own in big meetings, so you might perceive me as NT. However I prepare mentally for the meeting for hours before, I visit the room to ensure I don't have light in my face, I arrive early and observe everyone if I can, I then look for traits I might find difficult and try to mitigate them. I sweep the room with my eyes to give the perception of eye contact without giving any. I have a rule not to talk for over 30 seconds to avoid giving too much detail.

I complete my meeting and am exhausted, I find somewhere quiet under the pretence of post-meeting note taking, I always have a good reason why I cannot stay for drinks and chatting.

The experience is painful (literally ) and exhausting. But nobody knows.

I do not consider myself disabled, but I have to work very hard to fit in, much harder than an NT. Does an Aspie have to be visibly different for it to be a problem?



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21 Apr 2012, 8:07 am

Marcia wrote:
Hans Asperger was more highly educated, qualified, intelligent and observant?


LOL

/facepalm



Verdandi
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21 Apr 2012, 8:22 am

melanieeee wrote:

that was in response to another person's post on the invisible disability


But why did you ask that question?

Quote:
okay how was it that Han's Asperger was able to 'notice' that people who have AS were different to those who were NT's. he obviously had to notice that they behaved differently than NT's.


Hans Asperger's involvement with his patients was on a fairly intense one-on-one level coupled with parental reports of their behavior and constant observation. This is a bit different from the observation you're describing. He was also interacting with children, not adults.

It may be useful to question whether your initial premise is correct: Are they really indistinguishable to NTs? Are there aspects to their interactions that you may not be seeing?



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21 Apr 2012, 8:34 am

melanieeee wrote:
Callista wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
If people with asperger's have practice communicating with NT's to the point that their type of communication is indistinguishable from that of a normal person, is it really a 'disability' then?

Maybe asperger's is a disorder which is predominate in childhood (like separation anxiety and bed wetting which may also occur in adulthood but to a smaller degree)?
No, because there's more to autism than socializing, and because normal-seeming socializing is not the same as functional socializing.

Autism also involves things like sensory overload, cognitive differences including transition problems, extremely detail-oriented thinking, and the need to think in very concrete terms. It also involves problems with understanding non-verbal communication--there's a difference between faking it and using it successfully. You also need to be able to understand how to maintain a relationship; and for that matter, how to maintain a conversation.

Also, remember that when you see those vidoes, that's a person talking to a camera--not a person talking to another person. That's a much simpler thing to do. You don't have to worry about what the other person will say in response. You don't have to try to plan what you'll say while still listening to the other person. You don't have to try to detect the subtle shifts that tell you when it's your turn to talk. What they're doing on video is simply giving a speech. That's about ten times easier than having a conversation.


When I say they appear to be normal I don't just mean in terms of social. I haven't notice any adult aspies with with sensory overload with my time being with them.

Also I see that you study psychology. I study psychology too and I know that the DSM is only applied to those who actually display the characteristics to the point where it intervenes their lives and causes dysfunction. Normal seeming social behavior is not differentiated from actually being able to socialize.

Also there is a difference between normal psychological phenomia and abnormal psychological phenomia. The difference that you mentioned in terms of cognition does not sound as if it brings dysfunction to the individual - I would even ague that it is more acceptable to view it as normal individual differences.

In regards to your camera point, I've watched those videos made by Alex (creator of this site) interview heaps of people -again All still normal to me.


Because we've learnt to manage it. As a child I would have sensory overload when my mum put suncream on me. There'd be big meltdowns and distress the entire time it was on my skin.

As an adult I don't have that issue because I don't use it. You will see me out and about without any of that sensory overload. I'm perfectly normal in this respect. Or at least that's what you observe. What you don't see is that I spend most of my time indoors so as not to burn. I don't go on holiday, or to the zoo, or the amusement park or the beach or even just sitting in the garden.

What you see when you judge an adult with autism as 'normal' is only a very carefully constructed snapshot. You don't have clue of the difficulty they have to overcome the rest of the time in order to construct it.



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21 Apr 2012, 8:35 am

melanieeee wrote:
Callista wrote:
Well, what do you expect--a great big flashing neon sign? We've practiced our whole lives to communicate with NTs, and it'd be ridiculous if we didn't have anything to show for it!

That's why they call it an "invisible disability". We can often tell, when we watch each other. But not everybody can tell right away. The comment "you seem normal to me" is something we all seem to get occasionally, even when in our daily lives we're teetering on the edge of independence, or even unable to live on our own at all.

It's easier to hide a disability when everybody thinks that it has to be obvious to exist. It doesn't, of course. Plenty of them can't be detected at first glance. Autism goes all the way from glaringly obvious to very subtle. Naturally, Aspies are some of the people for whom it's more subtle, because we're missing the speech delay that's among the most obvious symptoms.


If people with asperger's have practice communicating with NT's to the point that their type of communication is indistinguishable from that of a normal person, is it really a 'disability' then?

Maybe asperger's is a disorder which is predominate in childhood (like separation anxiety and bed wetting which may also occur in adulthood but to a smaller degree)?


I certainly don't have any such practice, and I doubt I could come off as normal even if I wanted to.


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21 Apr 2012, 8:41 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
melanieeee wrote:
Callista wrote:
Well, what do you expect--a great big flashing neon sign? We've practiced our whole lives to communicate with NTs, and it'd be ridiculous if we didn't have anything to show for it!

That's why they call it an "invisible disability". We can often tell, when we watch each other. But not everybody can tell right away. The comment "you seem normal to me" is something we all seem to get occasionally, even when in our daily lives we're teetering on the edge of independence, or even unable to live on our own at all.

It's easier to hide a disability when everybody thinks that it has to be obvious to exist. It doesn't, of course. Plenty of them can't be detected at first glance. Autism goes all the way from glaringly obvious to very subtle. Naturally, Aspies are some of the people for whom it's more subtle, because we're missing the speech delay that's among the most obvious symptoms.


If people with asperger's have practice communicating with NT's to the point that their type of communication is indistinguishable from that of a normal person, is it really a 'disability' then?

Maybe asperger's is a disorder which is predominate in childhood (like separation anxiety and bed wetting which may also occur in adulthood but to a smaller degree)?


I certainly don't have any such practice, and I doubt I could come off as normal even if I wanted to.


I like to think I can and to believe I come off as normal. Clearly the fact that I am just as isolated as I was when I was a child says I'm deluding myself.



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21 Apr 2012, 8:43 am

melanieeee wrote:
Okay let me try to explain this - in psychology there are two types of clinical disorder. There is 'internalising' disorders and 'externalsing' disorders.

Internalizing disorders refer to dysfunction within the self so for instances depression and anxiety. The problem is within the person.

Externalising disorders refer to when the dysfunction comes from externalities most often a result of a persons behavior. This includes personality disorders, oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder etc.

It is my understanding that AS is an external disorder. One should be able to readily observe the way a person acts is different to others.


Actually personality disorders are not caused by the persons behavior, but rather are part of what causes the persons behavior........Also with depression and anxiety the problem can be within the person more specifically their bran and the way the brain chemicals are working, but those can also be contributed to by external factors.

I took abnormal psychology and never heard internalizing disorders or externalizing disorders....I guess I will have to look that up.


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21 Apr 2012, 8:45 am

melanieeee wrote:
Okay let me try to explain this - in psychology there are two types of clinical disorder. There is 'internalising' disorders and 'externalsing' disorders.

Internalizing disorders refer to dysfunction within the self so for instances depression and anxiety. The problem is within the person.

Externalising disorders refer to when the dysfunction comes from externalities most often a result of a persons behavior. This includes personality disorders, oppositional defiant disorder, conduct disorder etc.

It is my understanding that AS is an external disorder. One should be able to readily observe the way a person acts is different to others.


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21 Apr 2012, 8:59 am

melanieeee wrote:
When I say they appear to be normal I don't just mean in terms of social. I haven't notice any adult aspies with with sensory overload with my time being with them.

I have sensory overload hence the reason I can't spend much longer than a half hour in places like wal-mart or the grocery store and why I am still sensitive to light and sound. Only difference is as a child I expressed this by getting up set, now I can leave such environments...turn lights off, get away from loud noises ect so if I go off alone for a while that is probably why.


The DSM is only applied to those who actually display the characteristics to the point where it intervenes their lives and causes dysfunction. Normal seeming social behavior is not differentiated from actually being able to socialize.



For some of us it does...I know I have difficulties with any form of normal social interaction, so I always still come off as a bit odd, not everyone really reacts well to that.


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21 Apr 2012, 9:02 am

Verdandi wrote:
melanieeee wrote:

that was in response to another person's post on the invisible disability


But why did you ask that question?


Because I believe it is a valid question to ask?


Quote:
okay how was it that Han's Asperger was able to 'notice' that people who have AS were different to those who were NT's. he obviously had to notice that they behaved differently than NT's.

Hans Asperger's involvement with his patients was on a fairly intense one-on-one level coupled with parental reports of their behavior and constant observation. This is a bit different from the observation you're describing. He was also interacting with children, not adults.

It may be useful to question whether your initial premise is correct: Are they really indistinguishable to NTs? Are there aspects to their interactions that you may not be seeing?


That is why I was suggesting that maybe it is a childhood disorder?