Page 20 of 21 [ 335 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 17, 18, 19, 20, 21  Next

Janissy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 May 2009
Age: 57
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,450
Location: x

03 Aug 2012, 9:15 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Point being blaming it on any specific disorder is probably a bad idea.......if he does have a disorder then yes it could have been a factor, but its not like most people with schizophrenia are murderers anymore than most people with AS would be.


This is an inevitable artifact of our legal system. The insanity defense exists so defense lawyers are obligated to use it any time there is even a remote possibility of it working. To refuse to use it if it might work would be negligence towards their client. This means tyhey must spend the entire trial quite literally blaming the crime entirely on the specific disorder rather than just having it be a mere factor among many. Have that happen enough times (even though it usually doesn't work) and the idea that a mental illness could cause a person to commit violence will be firmly entrenched in the culture.

But consider the alternative. Suppose such a defense did not exist, that people were held criminally responsible for everything they did regardless of their state of mind. That would be unfair to people who do not have rational control over their actions. In order to help rather than jail people who have lost control of their minds, we have to keep alive the concept that in certain situations it is possible to lose control of your mind and become dangerous due to something not in your conscious control. So we are in this bind. Either we say there is no such thing as losing conscious control through no fault of your own (as opposed to losing control through a deliberate action like taking meth) or we allow that sometimes people can't control what they do through no fault of their own. And once we do that (as we have done), people will always be wondering which mental states can lead to this.

People with any given mental disorder are statistically unlikely to become dangerous. But this does not mean that it's impossible for a mental disorder(or a prescribed drug- thank you Surfman!) to cause somebody to become dangerous.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,439
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

03 Aug 2012, 9:21 am

Surfman wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
but its not like most people with schizophrenia are murderers anymore than most people with AS would be.


I think the reason schizophrenia has such a bad rep is that there actually is a higher incidence of murder......

I know many people who hate labelling groups

like being intoxicated all the time doesnt always make you a good judge

neither does youth qualify much in the way of experience


I don't know in a recent psychology class I took it was said schizophrenic people are typically less violent then the general population and more likely to be the victims of violent crimes than perpetrators of it. Not to mention I am kind of of the opinion if the 'murder' is committed when they are in a state of psychosis its not what I really see as a murder since a murder usually involves intent.

I mean if someone is convinced they are being attacked or going to be attacked by someone.....they will react accordingly, only issue is people with psychosis might be convinced of that when it is not the case which could lead to murder in a state of psychosis. But to me that is very different than murdering someone. And why do I even care about this distinction......because with my PTSD when it gets set off badly Its pretty scary because its very hard to keep a good grip on 'reality' and keep from doing stupid/harmful things. But I don't like it, I would like not having to worry about potentially hurting others if I get set off. I imagine people who experience psychosis might feel similarly when not experiencing the psychosis...I doubt its something they enjoy.

And how is 'being intoxicated all the time doesn't always make you a good judge.' a generalization? That sounds like a fact because I am pretty sure its true that being intoxicated all the time might interfere with your judgement.


_________________
We won't go back.


Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,439
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

03 Aug 2012, 9:43 am

Janissy wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Point being blaming it on any specific disorder is probably a bad idea.......if he does have a disorder then yes it could have been a factor, but its not like most people with schizophrenia are murderers anymore than most people with AS would be.


This is an inevitable artifact of our legal system. The insanity defense exists so defense lawyers are obligated to use it any time there is even a remote possibility of it working. To refuse to use it if it might work would be negligence towards their client. This means tyhey must spend the entire trial quite literally blaming the crime entirely on the specific disorder rather than just having it be a mere factor among many. Have that happen enough times (even though it usually doesn't work) and the idea that a mental illness could cause a person to commit violence will be firmly entrenched in the culture.

But consider the alternative. Suppose such a defense did not exist, that people were held criminally responsible for everything they did regardless of their state of mind. That would be unfair to people who do not have rational control over their actions. In order to help rather than jail people who have lost control of their minds, we have to keep alive the concept that in certain situations it is possible to lose control of your mind and become dangerous due to something not in your conscious control. So we are in this bind. Either we say there is no such thing as losing conscious control through no fault of your own (as opposed to losing control through a deliberate action like taking meth) or we allow that sometimes people can't control what they do through no fault of their own. And once we do that (as we have done), people will always be wondering which mental states can lead to this.

People with any given mental disorder are statistically unlikely to become dangerous. But this does not mean that it's impossible for a mental disorder(or a prescribed drug- thank you Surfman!) to cause somebody to become dangerous.


I know that mental disorders can cause someone to become dangerous in a sense....My issue is more with the idea someone would be seen and treated as a potential murder simply for having a disorder before they even do anything. I mean something tells me the more you treat someone like a potential murderer the more likely they might lose it and murder someone someday. I mean yes it is true mental illness can contribute to violence....but then I think the better approach would be to help people who are struggling with mental illnesses before they reach that point. Not stigmatize, ostracize and alienate them which society in my opinion does a great job of.

I mean people wonder why I have such a negative opinion of mainstream society.....well that is kind of what happens when you're different as a child so people treat you like a freak including teachers and other students. I mean maybe if people had been a little more kind I wouldn't feel that way. I mean for example in highschool I didn't have friends or anything and was not really enjoying life...and mostly listened to my headphones unless i was in class with the teacher talking. I mean sure it kinda sucked but I didn't really think too much of it I was more concerned with just trying to get done with school so I wouldn't have to deal with it anymore. But apparently in the minds of other kids and probably teachers I was the 'exploding time bomb' waiting to happen.....so when someone actually did come into the school with a gun and eventually killed someone this one girl verbalized what was already in peoples minds 'I'm surprised it wasn't you.' And did people warm up towards me and try to include me as part of the group effected by the tragedy after this? No I was still excluded.

Anyways point is it does do damage to assume someone who fits a certain 'profile' is a potential murderer waiting to happen...at the same time it is true mental illness can contribute to someone reacting violently but that knowledge should be used as a reason why if someone seems to be really down or struggling with their mental state you should help them not kick them while they're down.....I mean if people truly believe mental illness makes one more likely to commit violence why then would they want to push a mentally ill person in that direction via negative stigma and treatment of them before they've even done anything wrong.


_________________
We won't go back.


Mayel
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 493

03 Aug 2012, 10:09 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
I mean yes it is true mental illness can contribute to violence....but then I think the better approach would be to help people who are struggling with mental illnesses before they reach that point. Not stigmatize, ostracize and alienate them which society in my opinion does a great job of.

Agree.

Sweetleaf wrote:

Anyways point is it does do damage to assume someone who fits a certain 'profile' is a potential murderer waiting to happen...at the same time it is true mental illness can contribute to someone reacting violently but that knowledge should be used as a reason why if someone seems to be really down or struggling with their mental state you should help them not kick them while they're down.....I mean if people truly believe mental illness makes one more likely to commit violence why then would they want to push a mentally ill person in that direction via negative stigma and treatment of them before they've even done anything wrong.

This isn't about profiles which could lead to violence. This is more about a case that already happened and it's about the why (At least for me). And I think there needs to be more research done on the whys of such cases, exactly to extract knowledge and use it to help people instead of throwing insults without any knowledge and be done with it (because this is what is happening and will happen). That's a societal black and white thinking pattern: You're evil or good. You're crazy or normal.
I think it's difficult for such information not to be used for stigmatization but unfortunately, many will do this (just look at most media-outlets, it's about sensationalism there, which means that painting stuff as negatively as possible will get you more viewers and readers).

Talking about all this, this blog post and especially its comment section ruminate on this themes:
inside the minds


_________________
Knowing / that I could walk seventeen miles through a ravine / in the heart of Toronto,
and never / directly see the city/ is of some comfort


Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,439
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

03 Aug 2012, 11:25 am

Mayel wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I mean yes it is true mental illness can contribute to violence....but then I think the better approach would be to help people who are struggling with mental illnesses before they reach that point. Not stigmatize, ostracize and alienate them which society in my opinion does a great job of.

Agree.

Sweetleaf wrote:

Anyways point is it does do damage to assume someone who fits a certain 'profile' is a potential murderer waiting to happen...at the same time it is true mental illness can contribute to someone reacting violently but that knowledge should be used as a reason why if someone seems to be really down or struggling with their mental state you should help them not kick them while they're down.....I mean if people truly believe mental illness makes one more likely to commit violence why then would they want to push a mentally ill person in that direction via negative stigma and treatment of them before they've even done anything wrong.

This isn't about profiles which could lead to violence. This is more about a case that already happened and it's about the why (At least for me). And I think there needs to be more research done on the whys of such cases, exactly to extract knowledge and use it to help people instead of throwing insults without any knowledge and be done with it (because this is what is happening and will happen). That's a societal black and white thinking pattern: You're evil or good. You're crazy or normal.
I think it's difficult for such information not to be used for stigmatization but unfortunately, many will do this (just look at most media-outlets, it's about sensationalism there, which means that painting stuff as negatively as possible will get you more viewers and readers).

Talking about all this, this blog post and especially its comment section ruminate on this themes:
inside the minds


Yeah why do you think I hate the mass media....that is all they are about. And they also never know when enough is enough......I mean do they really think someone who's gone through something traumatic wants to sit there and be interrogated by some reporter with a shallow smile on their face trying to get 'the good story.' And that's what they do. But yeah I suppose as long as there are humans around there will be stigma.


_________________
We won't go back.


angelbear
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,219

03 Aug 2012, 4:03 pm

I am just curious about the case as well.



Mayel
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 493

08 Aug 2012, 1:52 am

James Holmes' Psychiatrist Contacted University Police Weeks Before Movie-Theater Shooting(ABC)

Fenton would have had to have serious concerns to break confidentiality with her patient to reach out to the police officer or others, the sources said. Under Colorado law, a psychiatrist can legally breach a pledge of confidentiality with a patient if he or she becomes aware of a serious and imminent threat that their patient might cause harm to others. Psychiatrists can also breach confidentiality if a court has ordered them to do so.The statement went on to say that police involvement with threat assessment "could include security matters, badge access, background checks, wellness checks, criminal investigations and referrals and outreach to other law enforcement agencies." [quote]


_________________
Knowing / that I could walk seventeen miles through a ravine / in the heart of Toronto,
and never / directly see the city/ is of some comfort


Mayel
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 493

09 Aug 2012, 6:01 pm

Quote:
Accused Colorado shooter James Holmes, charged with murder over a shooting rampage last month at a movie theater in a Denver suburb, has a "mental illness" and tried to get help before the shooting, his defense attorney said in court on Thursday.
During the hearing, Holmes' public defender, Daniel King, repeatedly made references to his client's unspecified mental illness.

"He tried to get help with his mental illness," King said of his client, who appeared in court wearing maroon prison garb and shackled at his hands and ankles, with his dyed hair fading to pink in some places from its original reddish-orange.

cnbc


_________________
Knowing / that I could walk seventeen miles through a ravine / in the heart of Toronto,
and never / directly see the city/ is of some comfort


Mayel
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 493

22 Oct 2012, 4:55 pm

Now that there's a little bit more information out. What do you think about this?


_________________
Knowing / that I could walk seventeen miles through a ravine / in the heart of Toronto,
and never / directly see the city/ is of some comfort


JRR
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 294

22 Oct 2012, 5:14 pm

No, there's a whole boatload of crazy in there, things we can't relate to. Most Aspies/Autistics have no interest in harming anyone ever, and are way too much into their interests to be even theoretically bothered by it.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,439
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

22 Oct 2012, 5:26 pm

I kind of feel like there was more to this story than the media let on...I mean how did the guy order all that advanced equipment to create complex bombs in his apartment. Where would a medical school student afford all that for one and how would they know how to work it. I feel something odd is gong on with that whole thing. Things just don't seem to add up.


_________________
We won't go back.


1000Knives
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jul 2011
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,036
Location: CT, USA

22 Oct 2012, 8:31 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
I kind of feel like there was more to this story than the media let on...I mean how did the guy order all that advanced equipment to create complex bombs in his apartment. Where would a medical school student afford all that for one and how would they know how to work it. I feel something odd is gong on with that whole thing. Things just don't seem to add up.


It's a government black op. It's quite simple. MKULTRA...



Mayel
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2011
Age: 37
Gender: Female
Posts: 493

23 Oct 2012, 3:14 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
I kind of feel like there was more to this story than the media let on...I mean how did the guy order all that advanced equipment to create complex bombs in his apartment. Where would a medical school student afford all that for one and how would they know how to work it. I feel something odd is gong on with that whole thing. Things just don't seem to add up.

Have you seen his scores and grades? He was/is highly intelligent at least in some form or another. I guess he's not intelligent in all areas but he did excel in natural sciences (besides other subjects,in practically everything he chose to do). It's entirely possible he set up those bombs himself. And if he'd already planned to end up in prison, he would have no concern on how to pay for some of the things he ordered. Besides, he ordered much more than he needed.


_________________
Knowing / that I could walk seventeen miles through a ravine / in the heart of Toronto,
and never / directly see the city/ is of some comfort


truthbetold7
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 1 Nov 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 5
Location: England

02 Nov 2012, 4:59 am

little_black_sheep wrote:
Hello everyone!

I know this might be a sensitive issue, but I just read that James Holmes was suspected to have Aspergers. Actually, I googled whether anyone has suspected that yet, because I thought he kind of looked like he might be on the spectrum. (Yes, there is no proof that one can "see" Aspergers in the face, but wel,l there are some similarities especially regarding the eyes in many of us, aren't they?)

Interesting enough, the description of him sounds suspicious. Brilliant mind, excellent grades in college, a loner, disconnected from society, not able to find a job despite his intellectual achievements, fascinated by comic book superheros, utter lack of empathy...

There are dangerous NTs and there are dangerous Aspies I guess. What do you think? Could Holmes be an Aspie and if so, do you think his actions will hurt the community?

Little black sheep


I believe his lack of empathy only arose due to being medicated and undergoing a sudden withdrawal from those medications which caused a severe discontinuation syndrome. Those with autism have an increased permeability of the blood brain barrier and therefore can experience adverse drug reactions and much more severe withdrawal symptoms. The point is his behaviour changed drastically from anxiety/depression to complete psychosis ONLY after being medicated and all evidence points to him suffering initial anxiety due to social difficulties which does lend itself to a diagnosis of higher functioning autism.



truthbetold7
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 1 Nov 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 5
Location: England

02 Nov 2012, 5:09 am

[quote="JeremyNJ1984"]Apparently it has already made its way into the public discourse:


This is what annoys me - saying James has higher functioning autism should NOT equate to labelling those with autism as maniacs! The facts are that those with autism suffer from anxiety and the more intelligent ones tend to be misdiagnosed with an anxiety disorder rather than autism due to the fact they are more likely to self manage their condition, thereby making the condition less obvious for diagnosis. They are then medicated for the anxiety and due to the increased permeability of the blood brain barrier of those with autism, the medications have a much more potent/toxic effect and this usually results in an abrupt withdrawal which in turn results in much more severe withdrawal symptoms/discontinuation syndrome. So, people with autism are much more likely to be medicated with psychotropic drugs that are almost guaranteed to cause some form of mental breakdown. FACT. The sooner people get this phenomenon highlighted to medical practitioners and in the media the better!



truthbetold7
Emu Egg
Emu Egg

User avatar

Joined: 1 Nov 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 5
Location: England

02 Nov 2012, 5:19 am

questor wrote:
I cannot for the life of me, understand why, whenever some nut job goes on a killing rampage, everyone, including many people here, immediately start saying he may be on the Autism spectrum. It does not automatically follow that a mass murderer is on the spectrum. It does a disservice, and an insult to us on the spectrum to automatically say all killers are on the spectrum.

From what I can tell by the news articles, the only thing that is clear to me is that James Holmes is psychotic in some way, not on the spectrum. Psychos do sometimes take to being loners, and do sometimes totally freak out after real or perceived setbacks in their lives. This does not mean they are on the spectrum. It does mean that they are having some kind of problems, but the Autism spectrum disorders are only one set of problems that can lead to acting out, and usually don't lead to mass murder. There are a number of other, more likely conditions that can lead to such violent behavior. Please stop lumping us with him until you have some REAL evidence to back it up!


James showed NO signs of psychosis prior to being medicated - he was medicated for ANXIETY, once those facts are acknowledged it is fairly easy to arrive at an accurate diagnosis. People who have autism have an increased permeability of the blood brain barrier - this means that psychotropic drugs have a much more potent effect, often leading to a sudden withdrawal from the medications which in turn results in much more severe withdrawal symptoms/discontinuation syndrome. James appears to suffer from higher functioning autism, this was misdiagnosed as an anxiety disorder, he was medicated, the medications led to a manic reaction that made James believe he must be suffering from dysphoric mania (which is a condition that massively worsens upon being medicated!) So - it is logical to assume that if James believed himself to have dysphoric mania he will have stopped taking the medications abrutly. The sudden withdrawal would have caused all the ensuing behaviours/mania. James is not schizophrenic - he has suffered a severe reaction to the medications - no psychiatrist worth their salt can make a diagnosis that ignores the part the medications have played in this tragedy