Asperger's Syndrome and Narcissistic Personality Disorder

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NoMore
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31 Jan 2006, 3:43 pm

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Last edited by NoMore on 19 Mar 2006, 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

autisticon
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31 Jan 2006, 4:05 pm

One of my roommates is narcissistic and thus I am far too familiar with the PD. In my opinion, it has nothing to do with AS. In fact I would say they're quite opposite.



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31 Jan 2006, 6:55 pm

BeeBee wrote:
Niether connect with the larger world in an NT way but for totally opposite reasons. My son understands himself but not the way the world works or how he fits in it. My ex- understands how the world works and how to fit in very, very well...at least in the short term but is clueless about himself.
BeeBee


Very well said BeeBee. My mother has NPD and I saw this a lot growing up. If she ever got involved in something, she was the best at it, an expert. She knew so much about society and social skills, that she assymilated into everything, not to blend in as we do, but to become (in her eyes) the best at it.
I can look at it humorusly now, when she calls and I know she wants me to ask how she is and I will not (don't care), I know that is why she doesn't call.
I supposed it was better to have been rejected by her than a "NT" mother, but it still hurt a great deal.


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31 Jan 2006, 8:30 pm

They are very much alike! I think I said as much in that Ever had a narcissistic significant other? thread. They merely diverge paths of development, based on the person's life experiences and environment. I can easily see, if an Autistic were taught not rote social skills but the underlying logic of human behavior, and grew up in an environment of constant manipulation that they excelled at, they would grow extremely narcissistic. One wonders, though Neant, why you argued so vehemently with me about whether autism and narcissism is similar. What changed your mind?


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31 Jan 2006, 10:09 pm

I know I definitely have narcissistic traits (which I'm trying to work on). Probably more of a Narcissistic Personality Style.


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danlo
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31 Jan 2006, 11:11 pm

How are you trying to work on them, Sophist? Trying to get rid of them? I love being narcissistic. I wouldn't want to get rid of them. Others might not like you but who cares? That's the price you pay for being at the top. They always feel you're putting them down, or showing off, or feel threatened. It just confirms your position at the top.


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01 Feb 2006, 12:06 am

danlo wrote:
They are very much alike! I think I said as much in that Ever had a narcissistic significant other? thread. They merely diverge paths of development, based on the person's life experiences and environment. I can easily see, if an Autistic were taught not rote social skills but the underlying logic of human behavior, and grew up in an environment of constant manipulation that they excelled at, they would grow extremely narcissistic. One wonders, though Neant, why you argued so vehemently with me about whether autism and narcissism is similar. What changed your mind?

My opinion is that Asperger's syndrome and narcissistic personality disorder have a few superficial similarities (empathy deficits, egocentricity) but that they are vastly different conditions. I suppose a person with Asperger's syndrome could theoretically also have narcissistic personality disorder or at least some cognitive markers of it (their social skills may be so lacking, though, that they are unable to manifest enough diagnostic criteria of the disorder itself, though).

I don't know how an individual with Asperger's syndrome and a narcissistic personality disorder–like condition would present. I doubt he or she would be a sophisticated manipulator or an especially effective liar; these two narcissistic personality traits require a highly developed theory of mind. The haughtiness and arrogance could easily be found in a disdain for most other people. In people with Asperger's syndrome, the desire to affiliate only with special people would mean other people with Asperger's syndrome, most likely. It would be hard to distinguish the narcissistic lack of empathy from the autistic one; maybe it's being untroubled by others' pain. The narcissist with Asperger's syndrome would also likely be introverted (almost a contradiction of the definition) yet somehow yearning for admiration.



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01 Feb 2006, 1:59 am

I understand very much about people with AS attracting narcissists who are looking for a ready-made "fan club". How about having a pastor whom you're completely obsessed with and who's a total narcissist? Nothing good can come of that, I tell you. Now, I understand why he alternately was kind and treating me like crap. And I wasn't alone, either. By him becoming a pastor with so much power over a congregation's spiritual life, it was just fuel for his huge ego and his tirades, refusal to take responsibility for his actions and insisting that everyone else meet his high standards drove most of the congregation away.

He's also been divorced three times and has a history of womanizing behavior. The thing is, he's so likeable if one's encounter with him is brief, he can fool anybody into thinking he's this "godly", caring, compassionate person. He only associates with those he can use to "better" the church meaning having thousands of members, million dollar facilities and drawing wealthy, educated members who can give large sums to the church.

If you're poor, uneducated or dared challenge him, you're a none entity, not worthy of his time. I learned the hard way I was one of them and after a long time of trying to adjust myself to what I thought he wanted and failing, I picked up whatever was left of my dignity and left. After looking back, I don't think his behavior was anything close to AS type traits. He typified negative NT behavior to a tee.


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danlo
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01 Feb 2006, 5:43 am

NeantHumain wrote:
My opinion is that Asperger's syndrome and narcissistic personality disorder have a few superficial similarities (empathy deficits, egocentricity) but that they are vastly different conditions. I suppose a person with Asperger's syndrome could theoretically also have narcissistic personality disorder or at least some cognitive markers of it (their social skills may be so lacking, though, that they are unable to manifest enough diagnostic criteria of the disorder itself, though).

The diagnostic criteria of which disorder? AS or NPD? Don't you think it's possible to be both lacking in social skills and successfully manipulative? It's a personality disorder. It's not dependent on having the full range of social skills, but how you use them. You don't need good social skills to be able to manipulate emotions, play on their feelings.

NeantHumain wrote:
I don't know how an individual with Asperger's syndrome and a narcissistic personality disorder–like condition would present. I doubt he or she would be a sophisticated manipulator or an especially effective liar; these two narcissistic personality traits require a highly developed theory of mind. The haughtiness and arrogance could easily be found in a disdain for most other people. In people with Asperger's syndrome, the desire to affiliate only with special people would mean other people with Asperger's syndrome, most likely. It would be hard to distinguish the narcissistic lack of empathy from the autistic one; maybe it's being untroubled by others' pain. The narcissist with Asperger's syndrome would also likely be introverted (almost a contradiction of the definition) yet somehow yearning for admiration.

Are you kidding? Lying is as easy as pie. Lack of empathy and lack of emotion contributes really well to the successfulness of lying. It's not about theory of mind; it's about controlling your facial expressions and voice tone. Haven't you learnt to say stuff with a straight face? To stay stuff without a hint of emotion, that they do not question what you say. So long as you're truthful on the big lies you will be found out on, they're likely to swallow the small lies. Emotional manipulation, as I stated before, isn't dependent on social skills. You can learn manipulative skills just as readily as social skills. I think you're confusing theory of mind with knowledge of human behavior. You don't need to know what they're thinking, you need to know how to make them respond a certain way. Trial and error, my lad. Also, I don't think anyone quite understands the evolution of a narcissist's game. There seems to be a persistent belief that they stop at the one point all their lives, and only want fans and adoration. Assuming they're unable of development is big mistake.


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01 Feb 2006, 7:03 am

Yet again, the idea that people with autism can be good at lying or deceit confounds me. I'm not, never have been, never will be good at lying. If I were, I would not need to take the disability pension.



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01 Feb 2006, 10:05 am

It's good to see you again, PostPerson. How is Albany? How does the idea that autistics might be good at lying confound you?


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01 Feb 2006, 11:03 am

danlo wrote:
Are you kidding? Lying is as easy as pie. Lack of empathy and lack of emotion contributes really well to the successfulness of lying. It's not about theory of mind; it's about controlling your facial expressions and voice tone.

A person with an insufficiently developed theory of mind would be unable to tell a convincing lie. The most convincing liars are able to simulate any emotion necessary to make their lie seem more believable, more deeply held.

Consider this: If a student wanted to make an excuse for being late finishing a major project, he or she might tell a lie: My grandmother died, and her funeral was just last weekend. If he or she says that without emotion, the teacher might be skeptical. If the student shows grief, the teacher will be less likely to doubt and even feel raising questions would be inappropriate. A convincing liar would have to go further, though, and appear grief stricken in other classes with teachers who might talk to the teacher he lied to so that this teacher doesn't raise the question with her coworkers and hear contradictory testiments from them.

Of course, people with narcissistic personality disorder are more likely to be compulsive liars who blurt out the first convenient lie they think of without putting much strategy into it. They lie often and can easily be caught in their web of lies because the inconsistencies are all over the place, from what I've read on the Internet.

Also, I have no doubt that a narcissist could be a versed manipulator without being overall socially adapted. Such maladaption is part and parcel to all the personality disorders. Typically, a narcissist will appear to have many acquaintances or at least sycophants who follow him or her around and constantly praise his or her opinions and actions. To him or her, they are interchangeable and not personally significant. If you met the prototypical narcissistic personality disordered individual, you would find him or her to be vain and lavish in his or her spending and aesthetic sensibilities (very gaudy, flamboyantly showing his or her wealth and social status), glib and a little too easy with the often flattering words (often to the point of being obnoxious and in love with his or her own voice), spoiled and used to having what he or she wants, trendy, overly self-preoccupied, and disdainful towards certain "unappealing" groups of people (e.g., racial minorities or the poor). A lot of people would admire the prototypical narcissist from afar and, for some reason, want to spend time with such a person. Don't ask me why; it doesn't make much sense, does it?



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01 Feb 2006, 12:14 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
A person with an insufficiently developed theory of mind would be unable to tell a convincing lie. The most convincing liars are able to simulate any emotion necessary to make their lie seem more believable, more deeply held.

Lol. The most convincing liars are able to withold emotion and state the lie matter-of-factly. You should see how flattered people are when you out and out tell them you like them in plain terms, matter-of-fact. They're a lot less suspicious of lies when there is no emotion involved.

With regards to your example, it is utterly flawed. Such an excuse is easily checked, and such an obvious attempt to escape an assignment. It is an event of such magnitude that the professor would be immediately skeptical. The best excuse is to tell the truth, and flatter that professor outrageously. Beg convincingly but subtly and allow him to think he's doing you a favor of his own free will. Talk about your grades and how you really really want to do well. Tell him you enjoy his subject very much, but don't make it personal. He will still feel flattered because a) he is teaching you, therefore by association you like his teaching; and b) because you share a common interest and he will want you to do well. Do it plainly and simply, without any hint of duplicity on your face but that of a simple person who would never lie or attempt to manipulate. A look of honesty doesn't require much emotional attachment at all. Effective lying consists much more of knowing how to seem emotionless and honest, yet evoking emotional responses.

Yes, they are likely to be compulsive liars, but I would think it is a mistake to think there is no strategy in it because of that. I'm sure that they would be able to take into account all of those variables in their subconscious thought processes when they concoct a lie. Do you do any less when you employ social skills? Sometimes, yes, but often no.

What you have described is the classic NPD individual. The one who needs sycophants and fans and adoration. But again, the mistake of thinking that they cannot advance beyond that stage. If you think about it from a narcissist point of view, the game of manipulation can fill all that without needing to resort to open and out adoring fans. It's easy to lie to yourself persistently that people respect you and like you without needing it reflected, and you get the superiority from the manipulation itself. If you have adoring fans, all the better, but it becomes less necessary as you develop both more self-lies and better control of the game.

I understand why people would want to be with a narcissist. They often have magnetic personalities and are masters of the art of flattery. Flattery will get you everywhere. A lot better than playing on the grief of someone.


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01 Feb 2006, 12:59 pm

danlo wrote:
How are you trying to work on them, Sophist? Trying to get rid of them? I love being narcissistic. I wouldn't want to get rid of them. Others might not like you but who cares? That's the price you pay for being at the top. They always feel you're putting them down, or showing off, or feel threatened. It just confirms your position at the top.


By reminding myself, verbally, of humility as well as reality. It's gotta sink in sooner or later...

Narcissism can help keep my ego in tact to a certain point. But with too much, my ego becomes more and more delicate and vulnerable to slights. I don't like how I ruminate over insults so small to me, but I do. IRL I don't think I really act narcissistic; it's more a bit of closet narcissism and not centered around my entire personality but more focused around my talents-- the things I can do-- as well as my intelligence.

It has some positive aspects like not being scared to aim for the stars. But it has negative aspects of vulnerability and it wears on other peoples' nerves as well. I've noticed it on here.

And I think the egocentrism of my AS only adds to it.


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01 Mar 2006, 11:35 pm

danlo wrote:
I understand why people would want to be with a narcissist. They often have magnetic personalities and are masters of the art of flattery. Flattery will get you everywhere. A lot better than playing on the grief of someone.

If you've ever watched the Colbert Report on Comedy Central, Stephen Colbert acts like the prototypical narcissist. It's an over-the-top version of Bill O'Reilley and other conservative "talking heads." He deliberately acts extremely pro-Republican conservative and is highly ironic.



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02 Mar 2006, 9:19 am

A narcissistic individual is primraryly emotionally driven, an aspie by logic. I would find it difficult to imagine an individual that could exhibit both disorders.

While both personalities are lacking in empathy, utilise false social reaction and are based on the self rather than others, a narcissist's goal is extro-verted while an aspie's is introverted.