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vickygleitz
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14 Nov 2013, 2:46 pm

This is difficult for me to put into words. I am not intellectually gifted [as many or most people active on WP tend to be, regardless of a recent thread by a poster saying otherwise] and I am an autistic person whose feelings get hurt very easily [mostly an SE from meds I am on, but not entirely] but here goes.

I strongly believe that as autistics we need to work together cooperatively MUCH more than we,as a group, do now. We need to reach out [online is a great start, but we need to go FAR beyond that] to each other, to support each other, to work interdependently with each other, to gain the civil rights and the societal acceptance and considerations that we need.

Before the "you can't herd a cat," and the "Autistics are too independent to do that," comments, please hear me out. To a lesser or a greater extent, most, if not all of us, have, at least at times, struggled against our basic natures in order to,to whatever extent, fit into the NT culture. It has been costly, and sometimes detrimental to our own well-being. I have chosen to transfer some of the effort of attempting to "pass," to the significantly more important cause of being, as an autist, and as a sister to millions of other autists,not only willing, but eager, to work interdependently with other autistics to affect positive change for our people, both individually and as a whole.

I am married to an extraordinarily wonderful man, who is NT. Coincidententally, he is married to an extraordinary woman,who is autistic.
We have an incredible marriage [complete with all the sh#t that even a great marriage endures] We work interdependently with each other. If it were not for his support of me, and my awareness that he is committed to continue with that support, I would most likely not enjoy the life and INDEPENDENCE I have, to the extent I do now. I believe the reverse is true on his part.

Working cooperatively does not mean giving up our integrity and independence. It does not mean instating a pecking order, bullying, gaslighting, scapegoating or treating others as 'less than" to keep everything in order. Why? Because we are not NT's.
We do not have to follow their rules for creating a productive culture. We CAN work together to create a culture that values our differences without having a need to create a pyramid whose bottom portion is filled with the agonized souls who cannot stand [and never should have been put there in the first place] any longer.

Please, we need to work together. We need to find a tuna, or catnip, or,heck, concern for so many of our hurting little kittens, that will allow us to herd together [ in a positive, non NT way] and help each other. We need to stop saying that we can't and instead work on how and what we can do.

There are so many gifted, activist autists who are blogging, donating their time and money to help their fellow auties. I have had several of them tell me of the frustration of being unable to build because of lack of participation of other autists. I am no activist. I'm just a granny. With lots of kids. And lots of grandkids. The majority are honorary [some of them are probably reading this now and have no idea how much I care for them and their happiness] and some of them will not be born until a future generation. But I love them all, and I am so willing to work for the well- being of my people. And I do not have to give up my independence, compromise my integrity, or waste more of my life energy placating NT's to do so.



Liblady
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14 Nov 2013, 3:37 pm

I'm planning on helping an autistic counselor in the community start a chapter of ASAN once I can get through my present drama. Right now the focus has to be on survival, however, if not repairing my career which appears irreparably destroyed, at least getting myself to a point where I can make ends meet economically and stabilize psychologically in a non-toxic work environment. I found out last night that the autistic counselor I mentioned is now in a battle with her own employer and has filed an EEOC suit. Unfortunately, the ongoing fight for survival in an NT world drains the time, mental, and economic resources that we need to most effectively advocate for ourselves. However, I do agree that we need our own civil rights movement and to make ourselves visible in our communities and educate NTs. In the meantime, we can help each other through forums such as this.



btbnnyr
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14 Nov 2013, 4:14 pm

I think that autistic people should work together to do things that benefit autistic people.


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16 Nov 2013, 7:34 am

vickygleitz wrote:
I strongly believe that as autistics we need to work together cooperatively MUCH more than we,as a group, do now. We need to reach out [online is a great start, but we need to go FAR beyond that] to each other, to support each other, to work interdependently with each other, to gain the civil rights and the societal acceptance and considerations that we need.


Yes.

The "herding cats" concept is unfortunate, because it encourages people with projects and concepts to not even reach out for feedback. I think one of the good things about this post and your AuHaven project is that it encourages people to think beyond the "herding cats" concept.


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17 Nov 2013, 5:00 pm

Cooperation is painfully lacking in today's world, for NTs too. It has been devalued almost completely, in favor of money. In today's world, most humans believe that rather than risk giving and hoping to receive in return, it's more effective to give in exchange for money, which is faster, more secure, and allows you to choose how you want to be remunerated.


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Exclavius
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17 Nov 2013, 5:52 pm

May I suggest a reading.

Charles Darwin: On the Origin of Species

Once you read this, and understand what it is saying, you will realize that a group which gives equality to it's weakest members is destined to fail, and replaced by a stronger group that ignores and subjugates it's weakest members.

Now add in some memetic theory and you will start to question what I just said.
The idea and concept of equality is an idea that is appealing to many people, and I will dare say that it is extra appealing to autistics, who either are or perceive themselves to be in that weakest group that benefits from such an ideology.

This idea will flourish, for a time, until it comes to such a situation where real survival again supplants ideological survival. At this point the group where equality reigns is less than the sum of its individual parts, but the part that embraces it's strengths and delegates its weakest to the chores they are best suited will be greater than the sum of its individual parts, and it will win in the great game of survival of the fittest.

the "No child left behind" policies of today have damned the future of the human race.

This all pains me grievously to say, because equality is RIGHT... But it is and always will be a failure in the making. Unless of course everyone surrenders individuality, but what Austist can do that? NT's might well be able to, and that is the greatest fear I possess.

But, alas even if everyone surrenders individuality, eventually someone will re-embrace it, and will eventually overpower the society that was created.... Like a deadly virus invading an organism's body.

So far, i've contributed nothing but pessimism in this reply, which though it may have been my initial intent, is not sufficient to make me respond. So....

The answer, that perhaps takes the best of both sides, or at least the best elements from each side, is instead of offering equality to the weakest, and those that contribute the least. Instead spend our energies at motivating them. Bringing them UP instead of holding the strongest back. Doing this, up to the point where the energy expended bringing people up, exceeds the amount of energy produced as a result of their elevation is a net gain. The best way to do that, is to teach them to awaken the ones that yet sleep, to be the foot soldiers in the new army of the Autists.

But you cannot avoid a hierarchy. Too many cooks spoil the stew... Too many chiefs and not enough braves, etc etc.



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17 Nov 2013, 6:37 pm

Well said vickygleitz.

But you must also remember and recognise that each one of us is on a personal journey from childhood to adulthood.

We start out knowing nothing. We are taught by our parent (for good or for bad), not all parents are worthy of the name.
And as we mature, we learn to cope with our own brain, our own idiosyncrasies, our own abilities.
And when our mind has matured to a point, we become functional members of society.

You are at that functional point in your life. But not everyone is. Many still have a long way to go. So be patient and forgiving.

Exclavius;
Equality is a concept only. It can not, and should not be achieved. We are not ants; we are individual humans each with strengths and weaknesses. The challenge that not everyone rises to meet, is to find your place in the world.



naturalplastic
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18 Nov 2013, 9:42 am

Thank you vickygleitz for posting this.

I do what I can (you and I talked about a certain 'hurting kitten' already), and hope to do more-like get more involved in the local autism support group.



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18 Nov 2013, 10:10 am

I think you have good ideas, so there's not a lot I can add to that part but I do want to say a couple of things. Please don't take this as negative, because it's not meant that way. I don't have anything to add to the positive part, you have it covered, so this may come across like it's all negative, but it's not meant that way.

You mentioned civil rights, and I want to first point out that we already have civil rights. Each person has their own issues and may or may not need accommodations. Also, one person's accommodations may not be the same as someone else's. Some accommodations just can't be mandated though, such as preventing others from getting offended or taking something we do or say the wrong way. We have to learn on our own to explain this to someone else when those situations come up.

As for working as a group, we are no better or worse than NT's. We have human nature and if you look around here you will see that we are no starry eyed harmonious community. There are factions, cliques, groups, crowds, pecking order, popularity, bullying, dissing, crushes, etc. We have everything that NT society does, we just have more misunderstandings within that society. I'm not saying this won't or can't work, I'm saying be prepared to deal with what you gotta deal with to make it work.

But, that being said, get out there and get your feet wet with the advocacy thing. I think it's a good thing you are wanting to do, and if I had time to volunteer and there was something near me to volunteer at, I might do it myself.



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18 Nov 2013, 2:00 pm

as usual vicky your gift of compassion comes through loud and clear. i could not agree with you more. i hope your post inspires at least some people to rethink their attitudes and behaviors. i know my own journey has been long and filled with many moments of reflection and renewed humility as i have realized how dogmatic and contemptuous i have been, even at times i thought i had achieved new levels of insight. so many times now i just accept that whatever i think i know, i really only think.


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18 Nov 2013, 2:21 pm

Can people who are not officially diagnosed help too?



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18 Nov 2013, 2:53 pm

Exclavius wrote:
May I suggest a reading.

Charles Darwin: On the Origin of Species

Once you read this, and understand what it is saying, you will realize that a group which gives equality to it's weakest members is destined to fail, and replaced by a stronger group that ignores and subjugates it's weakest members.

Now add in some memetic theory and you will start to question what I just said.
The idea and concept of equality is an idea that is appealing to many people, and I will dare say that it is extra appealing to autistics, who either are or perceive themselves to be in that weakest group that benefits from such an ideology.


This just shows you didn't understand The Origin of the Species.



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18 Nov 2013, 3:00 pm

Here's an article about such misunderstandings:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... understood

Quote:
Unfortunately, that is what happened, and it led to two myths about evolution that persist today: that there is a prescient directionality to evolution and that survival depends entirely on cutthroat competitive fitness.

Contrary to the first myth, natural selection is a description of a process, not a force. No one is “selecting” organisms for survival in the benign sense of pigeon breeders selecting for desirable traits in show breeds or for extinction in the malignant sense of Nazis selecting prisoners at death camps. Natural selection is nonprescient—it cannot look forward to anticipate what changes are going to be needed for survival. When my daughter was young, I tried explaining evolution to her by using polar bears as an example of a “transitional species” between land mammals and marine mammals, but that was wrong. Polar bears are not “on their way” to becoming marine mammals. They are well adapted for their arctic environment.

Natural selection simply means that those individuals with variations better suited to their environment leave behind more offspring than individuals that are less well adapted. This outcome is known as “differential reproductive success.” It may be, as the second myth holds, that organisms that are bigger, stronger, faster and brutishly competitive will reproduce more successfully, but it is just as likely that organisms that are smaller, weaker, slower and socially cooperative will do so as well.



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18 Nov 2013, 4:19 pm

I would love to be part of a female Aspergers/Autistic group or committee.I am very high functioning and even my Aspergers traits/tendencies are kind of leveling themselves out now.It is nice to know you are not alone or the only one dealing with what you are.It's great to have a resource online but would be even more helpful in person.I don't know if I would ever want to work with other Aspergers or Autistic people for a living,but maybe once a month or ever few weeks would be good.I realize now that growing up I was essentially on my own and never met anyone with similar traits and ways of learning and coping as I did.I wasn't diagnosed until I was in my later twenties and even then I didn't meet other women on the spectrum.Peer support is very important and giving just few hours of your time to someone who needs it ever once in a while is definitely something I would want to do.



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18 Nov 2013, 4:41 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Here's an article about such misunderstandings:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... understood

Quote:
Unfortunately, that is what happened, and it led to two myths about evolution that persist today: that there is a prescient directionality to evolution and that survival depends entirely on cutthroat competitive fitness.

Contrary to the first myth, natural selection is a description of a process, not a force. No one is “selecting” organisms for survival in the benign sense of pigeon breeders selecting for desirable traits in show breeds or for extinction in the malignant sense of Nazis selecting prisoners at death camps. Natural selection is nonprescient—it cannot look forward to anticipate what changes are going to be needed for survival. When my daughter was young, I tried explaining evolution to her by using polar bears as an example of a “transitional species” between land mammals and marine mammals, but that was wrong. Polar bears are not “on their way” to becoming marine mammals. They are well adapted for their arctic environment.

Natural selection simply means that those individuals with variations better suited to their environment leave behind more offspring than individuals that are less well adapted. This outcome is known as “differential reproductive success.” It may be, as the second myth holds, that organisms that are bigger, stronger, faster and brutishly competitive will reproduce more successfully, but it is just as likely that organisms that are smaller, weaker, slower and socially cooperative will do so as well.


if one group reproduces more successfully given sufficient generations, the group(s) that don't will be eliminated through attrition.

"It may be that ... smaller, weaker, slower ... do so as well"
This is only true in the short run.

If a group is able to develop a group mentality, and can utilize the weak and slow for purposes that are specific to them and contribute back to the group sufficiently to support their existence, then they will continue to exist, because they do serve a productive purpose. They will reproduce sufficiently until they can "separate"

But what that really boils down to Speciation, because a new environment is created, and those that have the survival advantage in that niche environment will prosper. But they will no longer be the same species (at least in the long term.)

Speciation is the divergence or branching on the tree of life. Much like Canada Geese that have started to stay in the northern climes instead of migrating are starting to speciate from their cousins that still migrate.

The speciation will be a VERY slow process, but at a point where inter-breeding stops, the process will speed up.



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18 Nov 2013, 4:45 pm

Exclavius wrote:

if one group reproduces more successfully given sufficient generations, the group(s) that don't will be eliminated through attrition.

"It may be that ... smaller, weaker, slower ... do so as well"
This is only true in the short run.


What you're saying here is populist pseudoscience. Try reading some Dawkins.