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beau99
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21 Feb 2008, 12:23 am

zendell wrote:
Wolfpup wrote:
allergies are practically the reverse of having a "weak" immune system. Your immune system is going after something it doesn't need to be reacting too.


Scientific studies have shown that autistics have a dysfunctional immune system. The Th1 part that fights viruses and fungal infections is weak. The Th2 part that's associated with autoimmunity and allergies is overactivated.

Then how come I haven't gotten sick in years, apart from an insecticide-induced illness?


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21 Feb 2008, 12:28 am

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He spent 90 hours a week studying autism. He became a regular fixture at scientific conferences around the world and marked himself out by constantly badgering the experts. As a trained engineer he brought a refreshingly different approach to treating autism.


From the article, about the kid's dad. Genetics much?



zendell
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21 Feb 2008, 12:33 am

ToadOfSteel wrote:
zendell wrote:
Wolfpup wrote:
allergies are practically the reverse of having a "weak" immune system. Your immune system is going after something it doesn't need to be reacting too.


Scientific studies have shown that autistics have a dysfunctional immune system. The Th1 part that fights viruses and fungal infections is weak. The Th2 part that's associated with autoimmunity and allergies is overactivated.


Then how come I don't get sick OR have severe allergies? (The worst I get in allergic reaction is some sinus problems when there's a ton of pollen outside...)


Pretty simple. Even though autistics as a group have immune system problems, there are exceptions just like any other medical condition. For example, one infection can cause 5 diseases with symptoms ranging from none to death. You could have had a super immune system that autism lessened resulting in it now being only above average instead of super.



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21 Feb 2008, 4:45 am

zendell wrote:
"this is at best a placebo" - WRONG. Some of the ingredients have already been shown effective.


Effective for what? Curing the root condition? WRONG.

zendell wrote:
"This father is treating the symptoms, but he will NEVER get to the root condition. It's there for life." WRONG. He did the research, as have I, and he is treating the root causes.


WRONG. The root cause has never been found - except in genetics.

zendell wrote:
"This is dangerous quackery" WRONG. It's NOT dangerous. It's practically harmless. And it is definitely NOT quackery.


WRONG. Any effort to cure the incurable is quackery - as well as dangerous. And far from harmless to boot. Especially as one is acting OUTSIDE medicine.

zendell wrote:
"Immune system problem my arse!" Immune system abnormalities in autism has already been proven. The scientific evidence is extensive.


And not peer reviewed and labelled by those who know as rubbish. I have no such problems and neither do a number of Aspies I know. Any immune system issue is seperate to the Autistic Spectrum - a seperation that you always deny exists. Erroneously.



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21 Feb 2008, 7:43 am

I don't agree with the article but more power to everyone who works things through in their minds and in their lives rather sit on their arses watching TV and wishing they didn't feel like s**t all the time.



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21 Feb 2008, 7:48 am

TLPG wrote:
Effective for what? Curing the root condition? WRONG... The root cause has never been found

If the cause hasn't been found, then you can't honestly say a treatment is ineffective at treating it. Doctors used to blame their patients for getting stomach ulcers by telling them they were caused by stress. Now it's been proven that a bacterial infection with H. pylori is the cause and can be treated with antibotics. Before it was proven, antibiotics were just as effective yet you would have labeled antibiotic treatment quackery because it wasn't proven yet and you would have been wrong.

Researchers believe multiple sclerosis may be caused by a virus (such as HHV-6a) but it hasn't been conclusively proven. But that doesn't change anything. Anti-viral treatments are still just as effective before it's proven than after it's proven.

There's increasing evidence that autism may be caused by a virus but it takes decades to find a virus and conclusively prove it causes a disease. This man quit a high-paying job, researched autism 90 hours a week to help his kid, and you quickly judge him as a quack. That is wrong. If he is proven right and his treatment works, you will have been proven a liar.

TLPG wrote:
WRONG. Any effort to cure the incurable is quackery - as well as dangerous. And far from harmless to boot. Especially as one is acting OUTSIDE medicine.


There is NO evidence that autism is incurable and plenty of evidence that it is curable. Acting outside of mainstream medicine is dangerous? NO. Conventional medicine, which kills an estimated 100,000 people every year, is dangerous. I think everyone should act outside of mainstream medicine, go to alternative doctors, reject vaccines, most antibiotics, and most drugs in favor of all natural nutrients and herbs.

TLPG wrote:
Any immune system issue is seperate to the Autistic Spectrum - a seperation that you always deny exists. Erroneously.


I forgot. You know more than all the researchers and experts who believe otherwise. :roll: I'll let you debate it with them if you want. I'll take the words of the experts.



ixochiyo_yohuallan
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21 Feb 2008, 8:13 am

Zendell:

I wouldn't like to get into an argument over this, but I am just curious. You keep repeating that there is plenty of evidence which proves that autism is curable, and that it is causd by a virus. Could you actually provide some of it here? With quotes and references, if possible.

I have been hearing lots of vague statements about autism being possible to cure, but I have yet to come across a SINGLE case desciption where a child was actually cured and it was proven with 100 percent certainty. Granted, lots of children do make a dramatic improvement, but that is a different matter altogether.

And yes, alternative medicine CAN be just as dangerous as conventional treatments, provided it is misused. To give you the simplest possible examples: most medicinal herbs contain alkaloids and other highly poisonous substances, and if one does not use them properly one may suffer serious damage to one's body or even die; large doses of vitamins are quite harmful for the body, and cause illness in exactly the same way as lack of vitamins does; and so forth.

Besides, quackery does exist, regardless of whether one is comfortable with this idea or not. There are plenty of dubious things going on within the official medical system too, of course, but the situation there is kept more or less under control. There is some monitoring of the treatments and their effects, and however insufficient it might be, it still helps a great deal. In alternative medicine there is NO such control whatsoever. One may basically advertise and sell any "treatment" one likes in order to make a profit, and there will be nobody to check whether it is actually effective or not (at best - at worst it could be overtly damaging).

This is what worries me most when it comes to the theories about autism being curable. There is no guarantee whatsoever that they were not concocted with a material interest in mind, simply because selling different "treatments" is quite lucrative. If this is the case, then the health of the children who are being exposed to them is the last thing anybody is going to care about. As for the parents, well, many of them are already desperate, anguished, or just worn out from having to take care of a severely disabled child; it is all too easy to take advantage of these feelings and convince them that their only hope lies in the suggested "treatment".

Given that this is alternative medicine, there is no real way to prevent such a scenario from taking place. I am very much afraid that it ALREADY IS taking place, and, frankly, thinking about it gives me a feeling of some primal terror. It is hair-raising, literally, and I cannot help wondering how many other people feel this.

(this, regarding chelation, HBOT balloons, vinegar/garlic infusions and the rest of it)

As for this man, I agree, good luck to him. :) I just hope he is not using something other than olive or rapeseed oil which could actually be damaging (many plants are far from harmless).



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21 Feb 2008, 9:18 am

Yeah, conventional medicine is so dangerous that societies where it's widely available are the ones with the longest life expectancy of any societies in history - despite obesity rates, etc. Some doctors don't know what they're doing and some are dishonest, but that's true of every profession - not least alternative medicine practitioners. But some people appear to think that if a conventional treatment is not absolutely infallible nor absolutely, infinitely safe (in the real world, nothing is, but these people don't live in the real world) then they'd rather go for an alternative treatment whose safety and efficacy have not been scientifically tested, because it's more 'natural' or something (so is bubonic plague which, incidentally is now easily cured with antibiotics and once wiped out a third of Europe's population, despite the abundance of folk remedies that were invented at the time).

By the way, there are parents in parts of the world who would swear by the efficacy of withchcraft, so if all your evidence for something is what the parents, who cannot be expected to be objective, are saying, then I'd rather go with more reliable evidence.


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ixochiyo_yohuallan
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21 Feb 2008, 9:25 am

zendell wrote:
I think everyone should...reject vaccines...


And come back to a situation akin to the Dark Ages where scores of people will die from easily preventable diseases such as measles. Then every family might well revert to having 8-10 children because most would not survive until adulthood.

zendell wrote:
...most antibiotics...


Sure. The number of people dying from pneumonia after a banal flu infection will go through the roof, but so what.

zendell wrote:
It's NOT dangerous. It's practically harmless.


You know, it is lucky that it happened to be olive oil. What if it were jimsonweed? :)



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21 Feb 2008, 9:35 am

If people with autism had weaker immune systmes don't you think organizations like the CDC would be telling us so?



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21 Feb 2008, 9:58 am

I want to know how many of us on here feel we have weak immune systems. I've always thought my immune system was sub par. Interesting theory, and I'm definitely happy to see any kind of natural remedies being tested for any illness. Natural is the way to go. This is pretty cool. Best of luck to this guy and his kid.


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21 Feb 2008, 10:13 am

My immune system is just fine. I got sick an average amount I think growing up (had strep about once a year it seems like though), and now get sick maybe once a year.

I do have an autoimmune thing though, and have quite a few allergies (my mother, father, and brother all have/had allergies and autoimmune things too).



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21 Feb 2008, 11:40 am

KristaMeth wrote:
I want to know how many of us on here feel we have weak immune systems. I've always thought my immune system was sub par.


Always had Asthma as a lad, now it seems to coming back. Had lots of sinus infections, and most always got the influenza.


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21 Feb 2008, 12:10 pm

KRistameth, we've had polls here in the past about "do you get sick a lot"? And it seems that we are either just as healthy or more healthy than the average NT.

It's interesting when an autistic has a some digestive problem or autoimmune issue, some people will tie it in with autism. When NTs have the same issues or other health problems it's just "getting sick".



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21 Feb 2008, 12:34 pm

KimJ wrote:
KRistameth, we've had polls here in the past about "do you get sick a lot"? And it seems that we are either just as healthy or more healthy than the average NT.

It's interesting when an autistic has a some digestive problem or autoimmune issue, some people will tie it in with autism. When NTs have the same issues or other health problems it's just "getting sick".


Yeah, even us aspies tend to want to make links where there aren't any when it comes to autism. It was just something for me to ponder about, 'cause I've always had a hard time getting over illness, or healing from wounds and abrasions, and overall I've always been somewhat unhealthy (scoliosis, hypothyroidism, lactose intolerance, etc.).

Yep. Just a thought though.


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21 Feb 2008, 2:12 pm

KimJ wrote:
KRistameth, we've had polls here in the past about "do you get sick a lot"? And it seems that we are either just as healthy or more healthy than the average NT.

It's interesting when an autistic has a some digestive problem or autoimmune issue, some people will tie it in with autism. When NTs have the same issues or other health problems it's just "getting sick".


Should I believe the anecdotal reports on this site or the scientific research?

Several autoimmune issues are found in autism. 58% of autistic children studied had autoantibodies against myelin basic protein. These antibodies aren't just found in autism. They are found in a few other neurological diseases such as multiple sclerosis and encephalopathy. IgG antibodies from mothers of autistics have been shown to cause autism symptoms in monkeys exposed to them. IgG antibodies from mothers of NT children did not cause these symptoms.