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ixochiyo_yohuallan
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22 Feb 2008, 3:45 am

zendell wrote:
Modern medicine has a few advantages. It likely leads high rates of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma, allergies, autoimmune disorders, chronic fatigue, chronic pain, and other lifelong "incurable" and debilitating diseases that affect probably over 50% of Americans (and it's probably high in other countries as well).


Could you please elaborate on this in more detail? I am quite curious indeed to find out how conventional medicine could have caused any of those illnesses.

If there is an increase in the rate of such illnesses in developed countries, it is most probably due to pollution (asthma, allegries, cancer), an unhealthy, sedentary lifestyle with little exercise (diabetes, obesity), inadequate nutrition (diabetes, obesity), smoking (cancer), and hectic urban lifestyles which result in a great deal of stress (heart disease, mental illness, most probably chronic fatigue as well). And, for that record, these illnesses are present in the poorest developing countries as well - and the mortality rates for some types of cancer, for instance, are TWICE or THRICE higher, precisely because most people do not have access to the modern medicine which, as you claim, is causing the illness itself. I cannot give you the exact numbers since I do not have the sources at hand at the moment, but I am sure you will be able to find that information.

Thank you for posting those abstracts. It would be interesting to read those studies. Still, they do not sound as conclusive evidence that autism as such is caused by rubella infection. There is such a thing as "autistic-like" or "autism-mimicking" syndromes, which can have a varied etiology (from different infections to emotional trauma), and which, unlike genuine autism, are completely curable. I wonder whether it is such a syndrome that they are speaking about. From the abstract alone, it is impossible to tell.

It would also be interesting to find out what they actually mean by "recovery". I've noticed a tendency where, whenever a "cure" for autism is promoted, children are pronounced recovered without being such. What is usually done is this: they describe children who have made a significant adjustment, which, as I've mentioned earlier, is not at all surprising in itself, and then present this as "recovery". In other words, they describe only the child's general external behavior, without ever asking him (her) how he (she) feels, and stress only those aspects of it which point at the adjustment that has been made. Many things are simply left out on purpose, so as not to show that the child is still pretty much autistic. I would like to read a single case description where a real recovery would be documented, and where it would be proven with all certainty that it is, indeed, a recovery: that the child does not stim in private, when nobody is looking; that colors do not glow for them and rough clothes do not feel like being dressed in sandpaper; that he (she) can understand absolutely everything they hear without having the words blur together; that he (she) has started to recognize faces; that they do not interrupt in conversation and are always aware when and what to say; that they actually understand the dynamics of non-autistic social interaction; etcetera, there are more things in here than I can possibly think of. For now, all I have read about are people who have improved greatly and have managed to more or less blend in, whatever that means. It is simply too easy to try and present this as "recovery" by not mentioning the subtle or not-so-subtle traits that still point at these people remaining autistic.



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22 Feb 2008, 4:06 am

sinsboldly wrote:
TLPG wrote:
Complete and utter garbage. Like so many other things - this is at best a placebo. This father is treating the symptoms, but he will NEVER get to the root condition. It's there for life.

This is dangerous quackery, and worst of all he's not even seeking proper guidance from herbalists and the like!!

Immune system problem my arse!

YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE YOURSELF AND NO ONE CAN TAKE THAT AWAY FROM YOU



TLPG,
just enjoying your sense of irony with your post and your sig line.

Merle


If you want to look at it from one point of view - yeah maybe it is.

It's my favourite saying - but there is a caveat attached, and that's the "right". One thing no one has the right to do is endanger their own or another's life. I find it hard to fathom that anyone being themselves would willingly do that.

And on your other quote - yeah death comes to all of us. My point was for those with MS it comes a lot sooner than it otherwise would.

zendell wrote:
Modern medicine has a few advantages. It likely leads high rates of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma, allergies, autoimmune disorders, chronic fatigue, chronic pain, and other lifelong "incurable" and debilitating diseases that affect probably over 50% of Americans (and it's probably high in other countries as well).


No, that's quackery causing that - and laziness and/or stress of living too fast for your own good. Applies to NT's and Aspies BTW. Modern medicine - when used correctly has led to longer lives across the western world. We have an aging population which has a higher average of older people than we've ever had in history. There was a time that getting to 100 was deemed a miracle. Now it's almost a regular occurence.



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22 Feb 2008, 7:19 am

zendell wrote:
pbcoll wrote:
Exactly. And how many people die each year because of a lack of conventional medicine?
An oh yes, natural nutrients and herbs - the sort of things people used back in the days when life expectancy was 40, and most children died before adulthood. The sort of thing that people used when MILLIONS were killed by bubonic plague (now easily cured with antibotics), syphilis (likewise), smallpox (now erradicated thanks to vaccines), rabies (preventable with vaccines), etc. Modern medicine is terrible, it lets people get to experience old age.


Tell yourself whatever you want if it makes you feel good. If think better nutrition, sanatitation, and living conditions were probably the main reason those diseases decline.

Modern medicine has a few advantages. It likely leads high rates of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma, allergies, autoimmune disorders, chronic fatigue, chronic pain, and other lifelong "incurable" and debilitating diseases that affect probably over 50% of Americans (and it's probably high in other countries as well). The big advantage is that theses diseases result in enormous profits for drug companies, doctors, medical researchers, and other people in the disease care industry. Feel free to blame it all on aging (after all, we live longer now) and think it's all just a part of getting old.



Better nutrition and sanitiation do not cure bubonic plague or syphilis (people sometimes catch them in developed countries, including the US, but now they're easily cured instead of invariably fatal) - antibiotics do. Better nutrition and sanitation did not erradicate smallpox - vaccines did (it has been erradicated even in desperately poor countries so no, it's not nutrition and sanitation). These are the facts, however much you may wish to deny them. I'll take allergies over untreated bubonic plague any day, thank you very much.
Do you think doctors and pharmaceutical companies have a monopoly on greed? Do you think all the sellers of alternative remedies, the traditional healers, the alterntaive therapists, etc have no financial interests? Every single doctor is corrupt, and every single alternative healer is honest? Do natirust health shops do it out of the goodness of their hearts, or do they charge you money?


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sinsboldly
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22 Feb 2008, 10:49 am

TLPG wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
TLPG wrote:
Complete and utter garbage. Like so many other things - this is at best a placebo. This father is treating the symptoms, but he will NEVER get to the root condition. It's there for life.

This is dangerous quackery, and worst of all he's not even seeking proper guidance from herbalists and the like!!

Immune system problem my arse!

YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE YOURSELF AND NO ONE CAN TAKE THAT AWAY FROM YOU



TLPG,
just enjoying your sense of irony with your post and your sig line.

Merle


If you want to look at it from one point of view - yeah maybe it is.

It's my favourite saying - but there is a caveat attached, and that's the "right". One thing no one has the right to do is endanger their own or an other's life. I find it hard to fathom that anyone being themselves would willingly do that.

And on your other quote - yeah death comes to all of us. My point was for those with MS it comes a lot sooner than it otherwise would.


I can see we disagree on several points, but I am not interested in changing your mind on any of the points. I am just interested on expressing myself about how I see what your thoughts evoked in me.

I am not convinced that I don't have the right to endanger or even end my life at my choice. I didn't sign any social contract nor do I buy into any religious schema that would have me live other than my own situation dictates.

and also, one is not given a specific time of life. MS might cause one to expire before others may, but even someone with a fatal disease can get hit by a bus and expire before their shortened lifetime. One has no 'right' to a specific length of life, it's pretty much a twirl of the dice.

just sayin'

Merle



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22 Feb 2008, 11:11 am

Exactly what I was thinking.... I don't have the right to endanger anyone else, but endangering my OWN life, or even ending it, is strictly up to me. I believe that I own my body and my life, and that's it. What I do with them, is my business and no one else's. I do NOT have the right to endanger someone else, or harm them. Peacefully ending my life should be my right under law as well as under ethics.


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22 Feb 2008, 12:08 pm

srriv345 wrote:
zendell wrote:
Modern medicine has a few advantages. It likely leads high rates of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma, allergies, autoimmune disorders, chronic fatigue, chronic pain, and other lifelong "incurable" and debilitating diseases that affect probably over 50% of Americans (and it's probably high in other countries as well). The big advantage is that theses diseases result in enormous profits for drug companies, doctors, medical researchers, and other people in the disease care industry. Feel free to blame it all on aging (after all, we live longer now) and think it's all just a part of getting old.


Did you just make that statistic up? I'd like to see some real numbers. Real numbers for non-senior citizens would be great as well. You can't just lump all these things together and assume they have the same or similar causes...


I'm not a liar. Here is the statistics:

cardiovascular disease (from American Heart Association): 64.4 million
arthritis: 50-70 million
alzheimer's disease: 4 million
parkinson's disease: 1.5 million

"Chronic illnesses account for 70% of deaths and for the expenditure of over 75% of direct health care costs in the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (1). Direct costs are now estimated at over $1.5 trillion (2). Indirect costs of chronic diseases, in the form of lost productivity and nonreimbursed personal costs, add several more hundreds of billions of dollars each year. In a landmark study published in 1996, Hoffman et al (3) reported that in 1990 90 million people in the United States lived with a chronic disease or condition"

http://radiology.rsnajnls.org/cgi/content/full/235/1/9



Last edited by zendell on 27 Feb 2008, 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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22 Feb 2008, 12:22 pm

zendell wrote:
I'm not a liar. Here is the statistics:

cardiovascular disease (from American Heart Association): 64.4 million
arthritis: 50-70 million
alzheimer's disease: 4 million
parkinson's disease: 1.5 million

"Chronic illnesses account for 70% of deaths and for the expenditure of over 75% of direct health care costs in the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (1). Direct costs are now estimated at over $1.5 trillion (2). Indirect costs of chronic diseases, in the form of lost productivity and nonreimbursed personal costs, add several more hundreds of billions of dollars each year. In a landmark study published in 1996, Hoffman et al (3) reported that in 1990 90 million people in the United States lived with a chronic disease or condition"


I'm not sure what your point is. More people have illnesses like that today because people live LONGER and also because we can TREAT people with illnesses like that.

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I don't think cancer existed 100 years ago. Some doctors who practiced at the time stated that it wasn't until vaccines were introduced that cancer started becoming a problem. I think cancer is primarily caused by viruses in the vaccines, although I can't prove it.


Of course cancer existed. Again, people live longer so more people can get it. It's also talked about now. Some types of cancers that were death sentences even back in the '80s are now treatable with fairly good prognosis (or whatever the plural of that word is ;) ).



zendell
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22 Feb 2008, 12:47 pm

ixochiyo_yohuallan wrote:
zendell wrote:
Modern medicine has a few advantages. It likely leads high rates of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma, allergies, autoimmune disorders, chronic fatigue, chronic pain, and other lifelong "incurable" and debilitating diseases that affect probably over 50% of Americans (and it's probably high in other countries as well).


Could you please elaborate on this in more detail? I am quite curious indeed to find out how conventional medicine could have caused any of those illnesses.


One theory is that viruses in vaccines, mercury from dental amalgams, and fungal infections caused by antibiotics cause may of the chronic diseases I listed above. There are probably thousands of testimonials of people recovering from many of these diseases with dental amalgam removal, chelation to get rid of mercury and anti-infective drugs to get rid of viruses and fungal infections. Many alternative doctors treat autism just like other chronic diseases.

I think type 2 diabetes is cause by antibiotics. I think antibiotics cause an overgrowth of Candida albicans, which can transform into a fungal infection and infect the beta cells of the pancreas. The immune system attacks the fungus and destroys part of the pancreas in the process resulting in the person being dependent on insulin. Right now, it's just a theory. It hasn't been proven but clearly something is responsible and it's not old age since the age of onset is becoming earlier every year and now children get it.

A few studies have shown that a very safe treatment called chelation improves autism and cancer. Many doctors report that chelation improves Alzheimer's disease, allergies, and eczema. Dental amalgams increased mercury exposure and antibiotics drastically reduce the body's ability to get rid of mercury. More studies are needed before it is considered conclusively proven. The good news is that NIH is conducting a large $30 million study involving 2,372 patients using chelation to treat heart disease due to its potential benefit and low risks. http://nccam.nih.gov/news/2002/chelatio ... elease.htm

ixochiyo_yohuallan wrote:
Thank you for posting those abstracts. It would be interesting to read those studies. Still, they do not sound as conclusive evidence that autism as such is caused by rubella infection.


The US Centers for Disease Control (CDC) was convinced enough to put on their website that rubella is a known cause of autism. That's enough for me. Researchers were convinced enough to stop studying it. I only posted two of several studies. Tell the CDC they made a mistake.

ixochiyo_yohuallan wrote:
There is such a thing as "autistic-like" or "autism-mimicking" syndromes, which can have a varied etiology (from different infections to emotional trauma), and which, unlike genuine autism, are completely curable. I wonder whether it is such a syndrome that they are speaking about. From the abstract alone, it is impossible to tell.


This seems to be a game alot of people here play. Anytime someone recovers, they weren't really autistic to begin with. The problem is they had the exact same symptoms and couldn't be differentiated from other autistics. I know people say no two people are alike but the criteria for autism is so vague and non-specific that many conditions can cause autism. Autism is similar to depression in that it's one condition with multiple causes. People who are depressed because they lost their job will often recover when they find a new job whereas if someone is depressed due to a chronic, incurable disease, they are much less likely to recover.

I'll tell you a little secret. Some of these autism recoveries are people diagnosed with PDD-NOS and because it's considered part of the spectrum, they can validly say they recovered from autism. When they say autism they mean autistic spectrum disorder (ASD) and NOT autistic disorder.

PDD-NOS is used "when there is a severe and pervasive impairment in the development of reciprocal social interaction or verbal and nonverbal communication skills, or when stereotyped behavior, interests, and activities are present, but the criteria are not met for a specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder." http://www.autism-society.org/site/Page ... DD#pdd-nos

I'm sure most experts agree that there are numerous causes of impaired social interaction and communication skills. I believe lead poisoning is a known cause of these symptoms and can be treated safely with chelation. There is no chance that everyone diagnosed with PDD-NOS has symptoms due to genetics.



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22 Feb 2008, 1:01 pm

Wolfpup is right zendude....

Look, EVERYBODY dies... first of all accept that. Second, EVERY death certificate lists a proximate cause of death and "contributing" causes. Every single one. "He was older than dirt" is not an acceptable answer. They're going to list something like "Heart Failure" a chronic disease, or "Respiratory Failure" a chronic disease, or a fast cause such as myocardial infarction (heart attack) and coronary artery disease as a contributing factor....

Oh and HELL yes cancer existed 100 years ago... it existed thousands of years ago too... The difference being, when you got cancer 100 years ago, you DIED. Period. End of story. Most of the time no one could see WHY, without cutting someone open and that wasn't done all that often. When someone died you buried them, usually within a day or two unless you had a cold storage area to put the corpse in, like outside in sub-zero weather. Corpses rot fast and spread disease, and in a highly religious time, death was often considered "God's Will". The REASON for death wasn't questioned. A case history from 100-150 years ago might mention "chronic wasting" for a few months prior to death. Very often that wasting was caused by cancer.


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22 Feb 2008, 1:12 pm

zendell wrote:
I'm not a liar. Here is the statistics:

cardiovascular disease (from American Heart Association): 64.4 million
arthritis: 50-70 million
alzheimer's disease: 4 million
parkinson's disease: 1.5 million


Some people may have more than one of those, so you've not proven anything about your original claim.

Quote:
"Chronic illnesses account for 70% of deaths and for the expenditure of over 75% of direct health care costs in the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (1). Direct costs are now estimated at over $1.5 trillion (2). Indirect costs of chronic diseases, in the form of lost productivity and nonreimbursed personal costs, add several more hundreds of billions of dollars each year. In a landmark study published in 1996, Hoffman et al (3) reported that in 1990 90 million people in the United States lived with a chronic disease or condition"


Interesting, but again this is vague. "Chronic condition" can mean a lot of things, and not all of them are serious. And this doesn't address my point that part of the reason we have so much chronic illness is because more people are surviving rather than dying. You've not proven a single thing with regards to the causes of these conditions. I also would note that while 90 million is a lot of people, it's not half of the US population. That was your original claim.

Quote:
I don't think cancer existed 100 years ago. Some doctors who practiced at the time stated that it wasn't until vaccines were introduced that cancer started becoming a problem. I think cancer is primarily caused by viruses in the vaccines, although I can't prove it.


Is there any problem in the world which can't be traced back to vaccines, in your view? The idea that cancer didn't really exist until vaccines were introduced is flat-out wrong, BTW. The Ancient Greeks knew about cancer. People in the so-called "Dark Ages" knew about cancer and attempted to treat it, albeit in a primitive way. Various discoveries about cancer were made long before the twentieth century. Your theory is provably wrong, plain and simple. I acknowledged in my previous post that carcinogenic pollutants have made cancer more of a problem in modern times. Tracing it to the viruses in vaccines is a crackpot conspiracy theory, plain and simple. If that were the case, then wouldn't actually getting these viruses cause cancer as well?



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22 Feb 2008, 3:33 pm

AspieDave wrote:
...and in a highly religious time, death was often considered "God's Will"....


Oh crud, people STILL say that. I had people saying things like that when my brother died. I was like "no it wasn't". Which probably wasn't what I was supposed to say, but geez :?



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22 Feb 2008, 3:40 pm

Wolfpup wrote:
AspieDave wrote:
...and in a highly religious time, death was often considered "God's Will"....


Oh crud, people STILL say that. I had people saying things like that when my brother died. I was like "no it wasn't". Which probably wasn't what I was supposed to say, but geez :?


A teacher told a story about a guy like that. He left a tire standing up on his driveway while his son was playing outside. The tire fell on top of his son and killed him. He didn't seem like he felt responsible. Instead, he said it was God's will.



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22 Feb 2008, 4:20 pm

zendell wrote:
Wolfpup wrote:
AspieDave wrote:
...and in a highly religious time, death was often considered "God's Will"....


Oh crud, people STILL say that. I had people saying things like that when my brother died. I was like "no it wasn't". Which probably wasn't what I was supposed to say, but geez :?


A teacher told a story about a guy like that. He left a tire standing up on his driveway while his son was playing outside. The tire fell on top of his son and killed him. He didn't seem like he felt responsible. Instead, he said it was God's will.


Yes indeed, because clearly there was no way to predict that a tire would tip over. After all, the theory of gravity is just a theory, it's not a fact!




(This was extreme sarcasm for anyone who didn't pick up on that :P )



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22 Feb 2008, 9:56 pm

Zendell, do you want to look up testimonials for the efficacy of witchcraft? Testimonials without external corroboration are, well, as believable as witchcraft.
Saying that chelation is perfectly safe is a dangerous and blatant lie - it is dangerous and should only be carried out when people really have severe heavy metal poisoning, not as a (profitable) placebo (maybe your source is the people that sell this treatment?).
Would you say that a deaf person that learned to speak and read lips 'recovered' from deafness? Of course autistics can learn about social cues and at least partially (depending on severity) compensate for a lack of social intuition. That does not mean the fundamental condition is gone, just that the person has learned to work around the disadvantages.
As others have pointed out, in the past people used to die of things like plague, leprosy, syphilis, smallpox, tetanus, etc well before they got a chronic illness.


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22 Feb 2008, 11:55 pm

pbcoll wrote:
Zendell, do you want to look up testimonials for the efficacy of witchcraft? Testimonials without external corroboration are, well, as believable as witchcraft.


I disagree but believe what you want.

pbcoll wrote:
Saying that chelation is perfectly safe is a dangerous and blatant lie - it is dangerous and should only be carried out when people really have severe heavy metal poisoning


Everything I read about chelation from several reliable sources states that it is practically harmless. Do you have any evidence that chelation is dangerous?

From wikipedia:

The Supreme Court of Missouri found that chelation is a reasonable treatment for heart disease that doesn't harm the patients receiving it.

"In 2003, the Supreme Court of Missouri...overturned a decision of the State Board of Registration sanctioning a doctor who used chelation therapy for the treatment of heart disease. The Court held that the therapy was not harming patients, and the standard for determining repeated negligence in using an alternative therapy such as chelation is not whether it is popular or commonly accepted by the medical community, but rather whether heart specialists would consider its use to be reasonable."

The American College for Advancement in Medicine (ACAM) recommends chelation. They claim that 800,000 patient visits for chelation therapy, with an average of 40 visits per patient, were made in the United States in 1997. If it is still used just as often, that means there were 8 million chelation visits in the past 10 years.

Side effects and safety concerns
"There is a low occurrence of side effects when chelation is used at the dose and infusion rates approved by the U.S. FDA. A burning sensation at the site of delivery into the vein is common." Other side effects are rare. Most docs recommend oral chelation and a recent study using chelation in autism found it was effective and practically harmless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation_therapy



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23 Feb 2008, 12:09 am

Here's ACAM's homepage

http://www.acamnet.org/site/c.ltJWJ4MPI ... D/Home.htm

Frankly, after reading what they say, I'd stick with the witchcraft if I were you.... you're safer with a witch, some of them are damned hot, and if you're lucky they'll do a ritual for you skyclad. It appears to be a nicely designed page for a bunch of "alternative medicine" nutjobs. Now I'll go wait for my check from Big Pharma, since I'm one of their biggest fans... they must be paying me to say good things right? It has nothing to do with the fact they keep me alive....

A nice webpage with impressive graphics and writing doesn't mean they know what the HELL they're doing....


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