Aspergers and Borderline Personality Disorder

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Recently I've had some big revelations in therapy. After being in therapy for 4-5 months we've both noticed I have symptoms and behaviors that are consistent with borderline personality disorder. I'm not surprised, while I'm not one of the out-of-control raging bpd'ers I do have emotion regulation problems, big time. For one thing I self-injure (cutting), I can go from waking up in a fairly good mood to crying and massively depressed and sad within hours. There are other issues but I won't get into all those now. But I flat out asked him if bpd can be comorbid with aspergers and he said yes. I had a very very negative environment growing up. I actually believe my parents had this too...I don't mean to play psychologist but they were extremely unstable. And they say being raised by someone with bpd can cause a child to develop it. But even if my parents didn't have it, I did not have a good childhood and I believe it caused me to develop this as a result. (If you google it you can see that psychologists believe something like 75% of people with bpd had abusive childhoods either emotionally or physically). I wondered if anyone else might be interested in this because I asked awhile back on the board and many said they cannot be comorbid. But it appears they can, which is sad. I have a feeling I will be in therapy for a very long time :/

I would want a second opinion.

but I believe (from what I've heard anyway) that the cognitive behavioral therapy works on both. if you're going to have a personality disorder, BPD is the one to have because the prognosis is positive with therapy. your garden variety NPD isn't going to change.

my question would be why BPD? if you take out all the symptoms of a PDD, what's left and does it fit BPD? could it be a mood disorder not explained by PDD?

It depend upon what you take AS and BPD to be. If we are just talking traits, i.e. roughly fitting a certain pattern of actions, then yes they can be co-morbid. If they are taken as more than merely traits, so neurological defects for example, then the issue becomes more tricky. It would be like suggesting you have two discrete neurological defects as opposed to one. Yet since we can only observe your actions, perhaps one neurological defect causes one bunch of action, those action then affecting your personality which then causes another bunch of actions. So in one sense, one discrete neurological defect caused only one set of actions, in another sense it caused both. Considering that it is difficult to establish just how discrete neurological defects are, given that everyone is different not only at the neurological level but also in what AS traits they have, it seems difficult to say even one discrete neurological defect could be causing any particular set of actions, let alone two.

This tricky conceptual issue is resolved by removing the abstract theorising and just base it on the question being asked. If you have AS traits you've got AS, in so far as the term AS is an idealised generalisation that fits no-one perfectly but still contributes to our understanding of people. Say the same with BPD, if you've got the traits then calling yourself BPD contributes to your understanding of who you are and how you act. All knowledge is ultimately language, so the applicability of a given phrase is solely determined by if having that phrase helps us understand and interact with the world. If both the phrase BPD and AS contribute to understanding who you are more than they detract then you've got them. Of course, how well BPD and AS contribute to understanding you may vary dependent upon the understanding science provide of them.

They can, technically, be comorbid, but I think that it's pretty rare for somebody to actually have both. A lot of AS symptoms can outwardly mimic BPD symptoms, so it would be quite easy to diagnose both. I think I actually meet most of the criteria for BPD, probably enough to be diagnosed. But so many of my reasons are so opposite of BPD. Like, there's the fear of abandonment thing. That's pathological in borderlines, because they tend to form relationships extremely quickly to begin with.. whereas if you don't really know how to meet people, make friends, etc., it doesn't seem to me like it should be at all abnormal to be afraid that you might be abandoned. If you know that you have social inabilities that can drive people away, and that you can't easily make friends, it would seem more abnormal NOT TO HAVE any fear of abandonment. Most professionals are quick to diagnose BPD in anybody who self-injures, too. But it's not like it's that uncommon in autistics. When you have a lot of frustration, trouble communicating, and inability to cope with a lot of things... how surprising is it, really? Plus it also seems to me like kinda the ultimate "sensory seeking." From what I've see, people with AS are likely to have more severe self-injury. I've had more than one psychiatrist tell me that I was the worst cutter they've ever seen. My best friend from high school, who I'm even more sure is on the spectrum that I am that I'm on the spectrum, is the only person I've ever known who cut as badly as I did. There seems to be a difference in the thoughts around it.
So... yes, they can be co-morbid.. but simply fitting the diagnostic criteria for both doesn't mean that they actually are. The way borderlines tend to form "instant" relationships seems to be pretty contradictory to AS. People with ASDs also tend to have problems with emotion regulation, too. I think that very frequently, the same symptoms that are diagnosed as AS in a male are diagnosed as BPD in a female. It may very well be that you do also have symptoms of BPD as well, just be careful that you don't mistake symptoms of your AS for BPD symptoms.

It's difficult for me to try to explain because I don't feel like I completely understand it. My theory is I had aspergers from birth (of course) and developed bpd due to an invalidating and abusive environment. Plus I was unfortunate enough to marry a highly unstable abusive husband (talk about bad luck and poor decisions) but thank god I'm away from that now. I think I do feel things so much more than others. I have a huge fear of rejection and abandonment. I get clingy and feel so needy when I find someone that I connect with, and when that person backs off I feel panicky. I'm sort of like the "I hate you don't leave me" book. For example in relationships with men I will idealize that person and feel head over heels in love. But if they do something unexpected or say something that I take the wrong way I will get very angry and tell them off and accuse them of not caring about me at all (etc.) And then when they stop communicating with me or tell me maybe we should be apart for a while I freak out and cry and say "I'm sorry don't leave". It's a difficult life to live. I was hospitalized a few weeks ago due to a depressive episode where I really did want to die and I told my therapist I was seriously considering it. I feel like I'm in so much emotional pain I can't function. After my hospital stay I have improved, I'm on medications now and I do very much love my family and am willing to do anything to spare them from having to deal with my problems, I'd never hurt them for anything. I just have a long road ahead of me. I'm basically just doing talk therapy right now, but I'm ok with that. I don't know if I'd even try the group therapy even if it was suggested to me, waaaay to introverted for that!

This is a difficult one. The way I tend to view it is that AS is neurological. It is with a person from birth. It is innate. It is the way the brain is wired and does not develop as a result of an outside influence. BPD on the other hand, is thought to develop as a result of environmental factors such as abuse, a chaotic upbringing, instability in childhood, therefore, not neurological. It is not something that is generally thought to be innate, and usually is diagnosed after the age of around 9.

Bearing that in mind, I cannot see why bpd and AS could not exist side by side, given their differing origins.

Anorexia is very common in people with bpd, yet recently there have been several articles suggesting that anorexia is the female Aspergers.
The topic of bpd and AS has come up quite a few times on this forum since I joined.

I think the thing that makes it hard to believe they could co-exist is the social aspects. The borderline is renowned for being needy and for swinging from person to person like branches of a tree. Aspies are known for being capable of being content alone with their special interests, and for having difficulty forming even one relationship.

I'm not sure I can explain this well, but for me... I am not a social person most of the time. But I do want to have friends and I've always felt like I had to be in a relationship especially. Like if I don't have a man, I can't make it in life. Like I need that support. As far as having friends I don't feel any need to have alot of friends, but I would like to have a close friend, even that one person I can talk to when I'm lonely. Unfortunately due to me having terrible social skills I never maintain friends, so I'm sure that is just confirming my abandonment issue and enforcing it in my mind. As far as my relationships, I am not good with dating, so when I finally felt I "clicked" with someone I would feel euphoric, like "wow I found someone, I won't be alone!" it's sad how I do feel so empty when I'm totally alone. I feel like a big nobody. When I'm with someone I cling to them and try so hard that it has pushed them away. I call, I email, I text... and if they "abandon" me I flip out. I get so angry, I cry, I cut myself... I really feel so incredibly hurt I feel like I'll be nothing if they leave. It's terrible, I know this isn't normal behavior, to feel this need to have a man in my life and like my world depends on theirs. I hope that therapy can get me past it. I love my husband, but our marriage hasn't been doing well (big surprise) and if things do get worse and I have to part, I know it will be 100 times more painful for me in so many ways. The thought of my husband not being there for me to lean on and rely on is very scary, I truly feel like I'd fail. When I'm alone I have the painful memories of my childhood too, and I feel like it all builds up and I am afraid I will self-destruct if I can't work through this in therapy.

and yet I've read so many posts from females that they find themselves in all kinds of weird or abusive relationships because of their naivete. I spent my young years trying so hard to stay in a relationship because that's what everyone else did and that's what was modeled for me. my mother simply could not live without a man so I thought that I had to have a boyfriend and have sex, even when it was utterly inappropriate and even when it was damaging to me to do so. I feel differently now. I love my husband but if I didn't have him I feel I wouldn't be that interested in seeking out a relationship because I quite frankly don't want the complications that come with trying to get to know someone well enough to have a relationship with them. it's too stressful and I'm too old and tired to put up with the BS

This seems like a statement that would be unlikely to come from a borderline.


Well here's the question.. is it true? An awful lot of people with ASDs just can't handle the world on their own. Many live with their parents, or with some kind of assistance. Do you feel that need because you don't know who you are without somebody else, or because you can't get by in the world on your own?


Is this a real abandonment, or an imagined abandonment? I know that the criteria for BPD say "real or imagined" but in the case of somebody who doesn't know how to develop relationships to begin with, and who can't really manage life on their own, fear of abandonment is rather reasonable.

Here's another question. The big BPD "thing" is the "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" phenomenon. Are you afraid of being abandoned by everyone, or more just afraid of being abandoned by the people that you love/care about/put great effort into getting to know/etc.? Would you rather be with somebody you hate than be alone? (for emotional reasons)


I disagree with part of that. One of the major things that distinguishes AS from more classical autism is that aspies do have the desire to form relationships--just not the ability. So while an someone with AS unlikely to do much of the branch-swinging thing, they're also likely to be very lonely and wishing for the ability to form friendships and relationships.

Saying that aspies are known to be capable of being content alone with their special interests is not the same thing as saying they do not get lonely or desire a relationship. My meaning was that a borderline can experience extreme distress and be totally incapable of spending any period of time in total aloneness without great distress.
An aspie does not react in the same manner to the same situation. They might be lonely, and might long to be with someone but not to the degree they are going to get themselves into a suicidal state over it, or feel that horrible emptiness the borderline feels. They also have far too much difficulty in forming a relationship to begin with to be able to swing from person to person, that is what I was trying to say. Not that aspies don't get lonely or desire to relate. I just think they are more able to cope with the experience of being alone than someone with borderline personality disorder. Their reaction to alonenesss or the prospect of abandonment is not so extreme.

(warning, tried to turn off pedantic mode, but I don't think it worked...)

Maybe there's an apples and oranges problem --

Early abuse/neglect in NT person == BPD, which leads to traits A,B,C.

AS without abuse will lead to traits X,Y,Z.

So, then what do abused/neglected AS people look like? Assuming it's ABC+XYZ, and there's the problem of, say, B and X contradicting each other, etc. But maybe the traits don't add up like that. AS people aren't going to be immune from the effects of abuse, so there's got to be some profile, but maybe it doesn't look exactly like AS or BPD. I agree with oppositedirection that since it's all fuzzy stuff, that probably the best anyone can do is take what's helpful, and try not worry about the details too much.

BTW, maybe look up complex-PTSD. I haven't read enough to know much yet, but there is apparently the idea that that's what BPD 'really' is. (early trauma from caregivers leading to extreme stress reactions, from certain 'triggers', basically) And other talk that having an ASD super-sensitive emotional/sensory neurological set-up could make normally non-traumatic aspects of life traumatic (or moreso). Maybe there's a way in that framework to make sense of AS-BPD (since AS and PTSD can defintely co-exist)

AS would cause BPD due to terrible childhood experiences. I display many of those symptoms too.

Awesome, so we can add the symptoms of BPD to the list of all the other s**t like depression, anxiety, CAPD, ADHD, and OCD that we already have to deal with.

...And some people think evolution has created ASD on purpose. I say thats a statement that disproves evolution.

bpd is the adult version of reactive attachment disorder (caused by trauma/abuse/neglect, if the reactive attachment disorder goes untreated you will end up with a bpd adult). kind of like childhood AS and adult AS, the symptoms are different because of experience and age, but it is the same disorder.

Very interesting posts. One of the questions I think from Maggiedoll, sometimes the abandonment isn't "real". I just think someone is leaving. One good example is when I was first dating my husband he would decide to go hang out with his friends and the thought of a big social gathering made my anxiety raise so I'd say "no let's stay home and do something together" me suddenly picturing something romantic. Well anyways, to make a long story short he'd say "no I'm going" and suddenly I would be sitting there crying and thinking "he doesn't really love me he hates me" and being completely irrational. He wasn't abandoning me just by going out for one night. At least I'm coming around better now. I don't react quite so badly, at least, not as often. But I'm doing the same type of thing with my therapist. I really like him so I keep having fears that he's suddenly going to drop me, leave, move, etc. even though he hasn't indicated doing that. I even did this last night, I was sitting here, my husband at work and I suddenly just felt very sad and really felt like no one remembered me or cared about me.

I guess when it's all said and done it doesn't really matter what label it is. Like my therapist said, labels only help develop treatment options, it doesn't mean that I fit all the criteria, or even change how he thinks of me as a person (or so he says). Whatever my label is I just have to find out what is causing me so much distress and try to deal with it.

The most famous combination platter of Asperger's and Borderline PD that I'm aware of is Nancy Spungen. You might want to read her biography, And I Don't Want To Live This Life. It explained a few things to me. In my opinion, the two diagnoses are a natural fit because Asperger's creates isolation and isolation creates abandonment issues, probably no matter how good your parents were. All BPD is is a failure to resolve the separation issues you're working on during your "terrible twos."

The answer to Borderline PD is to get yourself into a good Dialectical Behavior Therapy program run by people who have actually been trained in it (a lot of shrinks think they're trained in DBT if they once flipped through Linehan's book on the subject). It's a one-year program where I live, not a lifetime commitment.

Walking the Borderline topic

I went through this (surpised) in my twenties and thirties due to hormonal surges(which do a real number on women with AS) and I thought I was supposed to want a relationship. It started petering out with a fixation on one person to have nookie with, but this never materialized because of my inability to form a relationship. Just as well, as I could have been severely more abused than i was. My inner logical voice saved my from irreparable harm, thankfully. Now at my age I have no interest in such a relationship at all.