A New Idea About Other People´s Jealousy

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Morgana
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14 Jan 2009, 4:06 pm

I have been reading some of your threads about "Social Status", Hierarchy, what NT´s do with conversations, etc. It´s all been very illuminating, even if I haven´t always commented on your posts. Anyway, this has caused me to come up with a new theory, in regards to my own experience.

Like many people on the spectrum, I have lived through episodes of rejection and sudden betrayal. But another phenomena that I´ve experienced quite often is what appears to be other people´s jealousy. (Mostly in work situations). For years I have wondered about this. Why me? I´m pretty good at what I do, but I don´t think I´m a genius or something, to warrant this extreme reaction. For years I´ve wondered what I may have done to draw these kinds of people to me. I worked on myself doggedly, even wondering if I had unresolved, unconscious issues that brought on these things...but found nothing.

Now I came up with a new theory. If someone meets me, and I appear socially "awkward" or uncomfortable- or maybe they even misread my social persona as being a lack of confidence in myself- maybe these people expect me to be "lower" in terms of hierarchy or status? And then, if I get great opportunities or do well in something, maybe they resent me even more because they considered me to be of "lower status"? It´s almost like some people resent me more, whereas they are more welcoming or open to other people´s success.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or similar experiences???


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14 Jan 2009, 4:19 pm

NT culture seems saturated with envy and jealousy, so it doesn't take much for them to feel it. It's good for provoking ambition in people, but apart from that it's a ranking or pecking order thing. You have to know where you are and where you want to be in the 'rank' and you do that by seeing what others have I suppose.

I have fairly low levels of it and I'm always taken by surprise by it, because I fail to anticipate it...It takes one to know one they say. I'm also somewhat oblivious to pecking orders.



neshamaruach
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14 Jan 2009, 4:24 pm

Hi Morgana,

I have also had the experience of people being jealous of me. Sometimes, they have tried to take things away from me directly; at other times, they've tried to do it through my kid, which brings out the mama bear in me something fierce.

One of the common threads that link my experiences is that people were jealous of my joy and of my daughter's joy. So many people are so unhappy with their lives that they see someone being happy with themselves and they just want to cut that person down to size. It's not that I'm always cheery; my life has been difficult in many ways. But I have found the blessings in the midst of the suffering, and I feel joy in living. Sometimes people can't see that the joy has been hard won (and so they think I'm being shallow), or they see just how hard won it is and feel badly about themselves for not working hard for it as well.

There is also a certain innocence that I have always had, and people can be jealous of that. I think it comes from the childlike parts of me that have never gone away-- a common Aspie trait, especially in women.

As far as pecking order stuff goes, having joy and innocence is extremely subversive of any social hierarchy. The pecking order exists to put people in boxes and keep them there. Both joy and innocence are very pure and powerful forces, and they can't easily be contained. Certainly, if someone pounds on you long enough, you can lose sight of them, but once you have a sense of personal power, you can fight that.


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Greentea
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14 Jan 2009, 11:36 pm

I used to suffer from others' envy a lot when I was younger. Nowadays my life is grim enough that nobody would envy me. The joy and innocence were certainly pounded out of me to a great extent.

Morgana, your theory is correct. Just to fine tune it: achievement has to be backed up by correct place-taking in the pecking order. If you don't take your place, you become an easy target. Imagine a millionaire walking alone down a dark, dangerous street at night holding his dollar bills in his hands and coming out of his pockets. Since we're not good at the pecking order thing, we're not good at taking our place in it, so we become easy targets. That millionaire would be somewhere safer, surrounded by other millionaires, with a car and a driver and his money safely in the bank. The reason they don't attack others whom they envy is those others are less accessible to attack.

A more extreme example: this is why people change social circles when they achieve something important like becoming rich or famous. If they stayed at the same place in the ladder with the same (lower) level achievers, they'd get attacked and possibly destroyed by some of them out of envy.


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alba
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15 Jan 2009, 2:44 am

Morgana i think your theory is correct.

also, when we refuse to take our place in the pecking order....we are assumed to have no self esteem and a low position is sometimes assigned to us...people try to force us into that position. if we remain passive or accept the position we've been assigned then we can be more easily manipulated.

many of us aspies sense what is happening even if we don't actually read the cues. i can sense it psychically and it feels very unpleasant - like a hair shirt or chains are being forced upon me. once i feel that, i not only throw off whatever they've put upon me, but i hurl it back at them with as much force as i can muster. pretty sure this is a common aspie tactic that prevents us from winning friends and influencing people.

when they sense you've rejected your pecking order position, they will say something like....you're very stubborn ...or... it's always your way or the highway... i just have to laugh at that.



Greentea
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15 Jan 2009, 12:31 pm

So well said, alba!


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15 Jan 2009, 10:54 pm

Morgana, I think you have something there... I have had similar experiences at work too. One thing that comes to mind was when I was promoted to be Asst. Mgr., one of the other supervisors said things like "how is she going to be an asst? She doesn't even talk?" It was hard not to have hurt feelings because I thought to myself " just because I don't talk to you doesn't mean I don't talk". It's like they see me as less so when I do get ahead it's like "OMG she doesn't deserve it". Too bad, wish I had an explanation of NT behavior and thoughts. Always elusive to me...


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Padium
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15 Jan 2009, 11:03 pm

Greentea wrote:
I used to suffer from others' envy a lot when I was younger. Nowadays my life is grim enough that nobody would envy me. The joy and innocence were certainly pounded out of me to a great extent.


Ah, the story of my school life. I WAS happy, when people left me to my own devices and were just social enough. But naturally there is something about being an aspie that just draws people in to hate me.



pandd
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15 Jan 2009, 11:24 pm

Morgana wrote:
Now I came up with a new theory. If someone meets me, and I appear socially "awkward" or uncomfortable- or maybe they even misread my social persona as being a lack of confidence in myself- maybe these people expect me to be "lower" in terms of hierarchy or status? And then, if I get great opportunities or do well in something, maybe they resent me even more because they considered me to be of "lower status"?

I have the same theory.
Quote:
Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or similar experiences???

Yes, similar experiences, and, yes, the same thoughts about them, and I have observed it happening with others also.



tweety_fan
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16 Jan 2009, 1:07 am

that makes sense to me



FrogGirl
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16 Jan 2009, 1:48 am

I am married, and I still find myself without any help when it comes to many things. Right now, my washing machines agitatior isn't working. My husbands idea is to just junk it. I looked up the info on the computer and now know how to fix it. If I don't do it, no one will. That is my lifes motto. I fixed my clothes dryer when the heating element went out. Even when I was growing up, I always wanted to do things myself, with no help. I've learned, over the years, on how to ask for help, if needed, but many times, I find it easier to just do it myself.



millie
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16 Jan 2009, 4:16 am

Quote:
neshamaruach wrote:
Hi Morgana,

I have also had the experience of people being jealous of me. Sometimes, they have tried to take things away from me directly; at other times, they've tried to do it through my kid, which brings out the mama bear in me something fierce.

One of the common threads that link my experiences is that people were jealous of my joy and of my daughter's joy. So many people are so unhappy with their lives that they see someone being happy with themselves and they just want to cut that person down to size. It's not that I'm always cheery; my life has been difficult in many ways. But I have found the blessings in the midst of the suffering, and I feel joy in living. Sometimes people can't see that the joy has been hard won (and so they think I'm being shallow), or they see just how hard won it is and feel badly about themselves for not working hard for it as well.

There is also a certain innocence that I have always had, and people can be jealous of that. I think it comes from the childlike parts of me that have never gone away-- a common Aspie trait, especially in women.

As far as pecking order stuff goes, having joy and innocence is extremely subversive of any social hierarchy. The pecking order exists to put people in boxes and keep them there. Both joy and innocence are very pure and powerful forces, and they can't easily be contained. Certainly, if someone pounds on you long enough, you can lose sight of them, but once you have a sense of personal power, you can fight that.


more times than not, i just have to place 'ditto" under nesh's posts. girl, you save me an awful lot of typing. bless your little knitted socks.



millie
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16 Jan 2009, 1:13 pm

Quote:
Padium wrote:
Greentea wrote:
I used to suffer from others' envy a lot when I was younger. Nowadays my life is grim enough that nobody would envy me. The joy and innocence were certainly pounded out of me to a great extent.


Ah, the story of my school life. I WAS happy, when people left me to my own devices and were just social enough. But naturally there is something about being an aspie that just draws people in to hate me.



what is it? i wonder about that. i've had a crap time from other women mostly. just don;t get me. i've found some that do here and there, but not the total complexity of me and my special interests. although i have found a handful of women anf men here on WP who relate to the intensity and ingel focus of how i live.

i have been told how deeply i polarise people. lots of people want to actually look after me and then, there is always a bunch of envious women waiting in the wings with sharpened knives. i think it is something about the complexity of the AS - that it is threatening because it is not easiuly "readable?" that is a guess.
i am still contemplating that one, and shall no doubt do so until the day i cark it.

it may well be what morgana says --- that we refuse to take our places in the pecking order and so we become unfathombale on that very banal level (which can unfortunately be the criteria for life that many subscribe to.) how does someone like me fit into that?



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16 Jan 2009, 1:35 pm

I read a definition of difference somewhere once which seems to particularly apply to AS and to the social ranking thing. Apparently people perceive disability/difference as "other" as "not us" and they then relegate you to one of three categories

a) Up there (they're all saints, angels, etc)
b) Down there (they're all evil, repulsive, shocking etc)
c) Out there (insanity or ungraspable)

This can be drawn as a diagram of a central circle (normal/us) with 3 other circles of up there, down, there and out there that slightly overlap the central circle. the overlap represents the degree to which we 'seem' like them, a slight kinship.

In my experience this is how people perceive me, and they switch between all 3 categories. So yeah I guess we're unclassifiable in pecking order terms.



Morgana
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16 Jan 2009, 1:36 pm

Thanks, everyone, for your feedback! Now that´s one more of my life´s mysteries finally coming to light.

I guess I always kind of knew there was a "professional pecking order", but I never realized it might be affected first by a different, "social pecking order". I always figured if I did good work, that was that. Maybe that was why I often felt like people were trying to thwart me, or at least reacted badly to me. Even now that I do have more "credentials", I think will always come off as being somewhat innocent and lacking in confidence when meeting people for the first time; (though I don´t lack confidence in my work, it´s the social part).

neshamaruach: that´s terrible that people sometimes tried to get to you through your daughter! It´s unbelievable, what people will resort to. Sometimes, people have tried the same kind of thing with me, but using my students. I find this deplorable, especially as young students in the dance and theater arts can be very vulnerable. It´s bad enough when they do it to me, but at least I´m old enough that I can take it. I just hate it when they use students in that way.


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Morgana
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16 Jan 2009, 8:11 pm

millie wrote:




what is it? i wonder about that. i've had a crap time from other women mostly. just don;t get me. i've found some that do here and there, but not the total complexity of me and my special interests. although i have found a handful of women anf men here on WP who relate to the intensity and ingel focus of how i live.

i have been told how deeply i polarise people. lots of people want to actually look after me and then, there is always a bunch of envious women waiting in the wings with sharpened knives. i think it is something about the complexity of the AS - that it is threatening because it is not easiuly "readable?" that is a guess.
i am still contemplating that one, and shall no doubt do so until the day i cark it.

it may well be what morgana says --- that we refuse to take our places in the pecking order and so we become unfathombale on that very banal level (which can unfortunately be the criteria for life that many subscribe to.) how does someone like me fit into that?


I wonder if another reason might be the fact that people like us are in some way immune to mind games...partly because we don´t even realize they´re happening sometimes! (Or, even if we do, we don´t answer in the "normal" way, thereby throwing off the people who meant us harm). I know I´ve experienced this situation, and sometimes people even admitted that I didn´t react in the so-called "right" way.

Here´s a hypothetical example, taken from greentea´s thread, "NTs DO things with conversations". Let´s say that "person A" is neurotypical..."person B" is socially naive Aspie. Person A says "I like your dress, but not the color...I would never wear that color!" What´s confusing about that statement is the contradictory elements. What the person is saying is 1) "I like your dress" and 2) "I don´t like your dress". This is what gets me suspicious...(I have some practice, because my very NT Mom "does" things with conversation- though in a much more blatant and obvious way. It took me years to figure out the subtleties of most people, and I still miss a lot). Anyway, my guess is that person A is saying 1) "I like your dress"- meaning, I´m acting nice and civil to your face....but 2) "I don´t like the color, I would never wear that color"- meaning, this is my passive-aggressive way of lowering you a notch on the social scale. "I wouldn´t be caught dead in that color, that is a tasteless choice"...(of course it could mean something else in a different circumstance, that is just one possibility). So person B- clueless Aspie replies- in a genuine manner, with no hint of malice in her voice- "Thank you, yes, I like this dress too. Of course, I see what you mean about the color...you´re right, this color probably wouldn´t look good on you, I wouldn´t wear it either if I were you". (Of course, that´s one possible answer of many).
Person A is angry and irritated because:
a) her intended slight went apparently unnoticed
b) because person B answered in a genuine fashion, person A feels bad about herself because person B did not "stoop down to her level"
c) Person B- unwitting Aspie- "one-upped" person A by actually insulting person B, without even intending to, as she didn´t even "get" the slight in the first place and was only answering honestly. (But person B doesn´t realize this).

This is just hypothetical conjecture; my mind is really working now, due to all the things I´ve been reading lately. But I know that I often upset or irritated people and had no idea why, in fact, my intentions were good. I think this may be one reason why.


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