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t0
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23 Jan 2009, 12:08 pm

slowmutant wrote:
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Court of law has nothing to do with morality.


That must be why OJ Simspon was never convicted for the double-homicide he committed. :roll:

That must also be why everybody swears on the Bible. :roll:

Seriously though, morality is the foundation of any legal system.


I really wasn't trying to start a PPR flame war - but here's my experience.

1) No bible swearing. Witnesses were asked to raise their right hand and to swear to "Tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." No swearing to a god either.

2) We were specifically told by both the prosecutor and the defense attorney that we could only use the facts to decide the case. If there was behavior involved that we were morally against (by either the defendant, police or others) we could not use our moral compass to decide the verdict of the case. Yes it is true that the legal system was originally based on moral values. I probably should have written:

t0 in hindsight wrote:
Participating as a juror in a court of law does not require an individual to override/interfere with God's moral judgement. The juror's only decision is whether or not the defendant violated mans' law. Your god will make the only judgement as to whether or not the defendant lived a morally correct life.


I still think it's BS to claim religious exemption based on an objection of judgement. The bible clearly indicates that God's law is above mans' law - which means they are separate entities.



ruveyn
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23 Jan 2009, 12:49 pm

slowmutant wrote:



That must also be why everybody swears on the Bible. :roll:



Not I. I bind myself under the laws concerning perjury by affirmation. No Bible, no invoking the deity de jour. I simply affirm that in the testimony I am about to give I will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. (Hooray for the First Amendment!).

It says in the Talmud that our yes should mean Yes and our no should mean No. We are bound by our word and we do not have to invoke the deity of our choice to be bound so.

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slowmutant
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23 Jan 2009, 5:34 pm

The Talmud is a religious text. Why give a damn what it says?



ruveyn
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23 Jan 2009, 6:41 pm

slowmutant wrote:
The Talmud is a religious text. Why give a damn what it says?


It is also a source of ethical guidance and a survival manual. Unlike the TNKH which is supposed to be god inspired, the Talmud is man made by sages and scholars.

Don't you think people ought be be bound by their promises and oaths. Shouldn't people keep contracts they make freely? Shouldn't people respect each other's property and lives?

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Marcia
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23 Jan 2009, 6:55 pm

I think everyone has a civic duty to serve on a jury if required to, unless they can demonstrate that they are unable to for some reason. Not wanting to do it, or fearing that you will be uncomfortable, or inconvenienced by it is not a good enough reason.

The only time I was called for jury service was when I was pregnant. I wrote back, with documentation, to explain that I would either be in a maternity hospital or hopefully breastfeeding a new born baby by the time of the trial. That reason was accepted without question.

If I were called again to serve on a jury, then I would consider part of my living within this society to play my part as best I can.

Btw - there is no requirement, in the UK, to swear an oath on a Bible. You can choose to affirm instead and don't have to give any reason. Also, I am a Christian, and see no problem in being part of a group of people who listen to evidence, and decide on its credibility and make a decision based on that.



slowmutant
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23 Jan 2009, 6:59 pm

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Also, I am a Christian, and see no problem in being part of a group of people who listen to evidence, and decide on its credibility and make a decision based on that.


Nor do I, and I am Christian, as well. Somewhere in the Bible I'm sure there's a verse that states a person's civic ohbligations.



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23 Jan 2009, 7:06 pm

If you're unable to do such due to your label, it's not an excuse, it's a reason. You have to interact with a whole heap of people, as well as being in a loud environment, among a million other things that would be too difficult for someone with my level of AS.

If you can do it, cool, but if you can't, that's what you have the label for.



slowmutant
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23 Jan 2009, 9:47 pm

Danielismyname wrote:
If you're unable to do such due to your label, it's not an excuse, it's a reason. You have to interact with a whole heap of people, as well as being in a loud environment, among a million other things that would be too difficult for someone with my level of AS.

If you can do it, cool, but if you can't, that's what you have the label for.


The label can exculpate you from just about anything, including murder and other felony charges. :roll:


(not!)



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23 Jan 2009, 9:54 pm

slowmutant wrote:
The label can exculpate you from just about anything, including murder and other felony charges. :roll:


(not!)


Your point? Other than saying the obvious (i.e., mental illnesses/disorders don't make you immune to criminal actions, which most people should know; it can define how your punishment is given, of course).

I used my label to refrain from jury duty, and for very good reason; the government didn't have any qualms with me doing such (I needed the doctor to sign the form, of course).

The whole point of having a label is for this very reason, to give you a valid reason for others to know why you can't do something.



slowmutant
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23 Jan 2009, 10:34 pm

Has your label ever prevented you from doing things you enjoy doing? Or does it rear its ugly head only when obligations arise?



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23 Jan 2009, 10:40 pm

I don't know if it's a "ticket out" or not, but I will keep it in mind if I ever get called to duty. I wouldn't make a good juror anyway, due to the hassels with the law that I've already been through. I think I would tend to be more unforgiving that most, and tend to press for a harsher punishment. Plus, I would be pissed off that I had to be there in the first place, so that wouldn't help matters either. Basically, you wouldn't want me as your juror. :shrug:


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Danielismyname
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23 Jan 2009, 10:43 pm

slowmutant wrote:
Has your label ever prevented you from doing things you enjoy doing? Or does it rear its ugly head only when obligations arise?


You know, I can see what you insinuate, and judging others doesn't work too well when you don't even know them.

To answer your question, it stops me from visiting someone I love, it stops me supporting someone else I love, it stops me from doing my dream job (military; they didn't like the label, ironically), and it has completely disabled me in all superficial ways. I don't enjoy anything.



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23 Jan 2009, 11:24 pm

bonez wrote:
if i tell them i have AS will that get me off? and how about if i dont have a diagnosis but i explain to them which symptoms i have that would make me a bad jury....?

I suppose it'd have to do with your level(s) of impairment.


I, for one, wouldn't be able to do jury duty.
Just in case someone thinks I'm using it as an "excuse" (I have to say to the OP, that was some bad phrasing.), my reasons would be:
Selective mutism
Anxiety to the point that if anyone tried to make me talk, I'd most likely go into instant meltdown: at which point, I get "scary". Banging my head on things, biting and punching myself, crying uncontrollably... such and ect. ... these things a good juror do not make.


I will most likely regret asking this, but....
slowmutant, any particular reason for you picking on Danielismyname?


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slowmutant
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24 Jan 2009, 8:34 am

BelindatheNobody wrote:
bonez wrote:
if i tell them i have AS will that get me off? and how about if i dont have a diagnosis but i explain to them which symptoms i have that would make me a bad jury....?

I suppose it'd have to do with your level(s) of impairment.


I, for one, wouldn't be able to do jury duty.
Just in case someone thinks I'm using it as an "excuse" (I have to say to the OP, that was some bad phrasing.), my reasons would be:
Selective mutism
Anxiety to the point that if anyone tried to make me talk, I'd most likely go into instant meltdown: at which point, I get "scary". Banging my head on things, biting and punching myself, crying uncontrollably... such and ect. ... these things a good juror do not make.


I will most likely regret asking this, but....
slowmutant, any particular reason for you picking on Danielismyname?


No, I'm just sick and tired of hearing about people with AS using their label to absolve themselves of responsibility and accountability. My beef is not specifically with Danielismyname.



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24 Jan 2009, 8:57 am

In writing, I asked to be excused from jury duty. My reasons were that I can have trouble coming to consensus with other people and that would be disruptive to the process through the trial. I didnt feel that I could discharge my civic duties fairly.

I was excused. I didnt say I was incapable of it, but that in all good consciousness I was not an asset to the process.

Sure, I used my label as an excuse, but I also did was I thought was right. They want to hear that you feel responsibility, not just an excuse. I wasnt an asset, I would have dragged the court case out, adding to expenses.


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craola
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24 Jan 2009, 9:50 am

Excuse?
Surely unless there is a definitive reason that you can't do it you should let them know and let them make the decision.
Has anyone else noticed that Aspergers and Autism as well to some extent has become a joke to an awful lot of people, it seem to be everywhere.