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Enki76
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01 Jul 2009, 10:53 am

It is my opinion that, especially at the high-functioning end, one can develop NPD.

It may develop as a result of trying to fake being normal; because the image they put out to the world is the one that is accepted, they might do everything they can to maintain the illusion...eventually forgetting that it is one. So, then, NPD may be a risk factor.

I'm not psychologist or a psychiatrist; just an aspie with an opinion.



Henriksson
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01 Jul 2009, 11:31 am

sunshower wrote:
Wow, now I'm a narcissist and OCPD. Today just keeps getting better and better.

That's what I thought when I read this thread too... 8O


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01 Jul 2009, 3:32 pm

I think another difference between a narcissist and Autistic is that the former lacks a conscience. From what I can determine, people on the Autism Spectrum have a strong sense of right and wrong and suffer greatly when they believe they have offended someone or broken their own high code of conduct. A narcissist has no regard, awareness or remorse for the pain and suffering he brings into the lives of others and has no compulsions against lying and cheating to get what he or she wants. A narcissist will not admit to being wrong about anything and blames everyone else for his or her mistakes. An Aspie or Autie has a high regard and reverence for truth. Can an Aspie have narcissistic tendencies? Can narcissism under certain unfortunate circumstance stake a claim somewhere in the landscape of the Austistic personality as other psychological disturbances do? This is open to conjecture. It seems plausible to me that this could be the case. But the pathology would be confined to the narcissism and not to the Autism, as, in my opinion, Austism is not a disease, a disorder, or pathological (morbid) in nature.



Last edited by cosmiccat on 01 Jul 2009, 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Demon-Chorus
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02 Jul 2009, 3:11 am

presentjoy wrote:
yes; withdrawal into the self is different than narcissism. i think self-centredness is different from narcissism too.


It is, one trait of narcissism does not make a narcissist. Narcissism is having a wide variety of narcissist traits in a persistant manner.

presentjoy wrote:
From Sam Vaknin, self-proclaimed narcissist:


He is "self-proclaimed" but his proclaimation of being a narcissist is oddly enough not BS, he's a true blue narcissistic sociopathic moral and intellectual deviant.

presentjoy wrote:
So narcissists are obsessed with what they are projecting into the world, how they appear. But he says they are deeply unable to love. so they try to create a lovable self-image. they will overinflate, because what lies underneath is intense insecurity.


You have to be careful with "Dr" (he's not a doctor, his "diploma" is from a diploma mill and he's had no actual theraputic discourse with any actual clients) Sam Vaknin, since he's a pathological liar and pathological imbecil who likes to put on a "big bad wolf" mask to make himself look big when he's nothing more than a yappy little dog. Basically asking him about his psychopathology is like asking a clown to explain his idiocy.

Yeah I know I'm being harsh, but Vaknin is a sociopathic clown who seems to have a partial-awareness of his deviancy but instead of actually fully waking up and bettering himself, he wears it as a "badge of honour" and scapegoats (his preferred scapegoat is "genes") so he doesn't have to change and he can remain a oblivious morally decadent imbecil, all the while pretending he's a robot or "binary machine" as he said on a radio-show and is thusly "super-logical, objective and rational", and ends up saying the strangest load of crap I've ever heard. Then when he gets "narcissistic injury" ie. "butthurt" he acts like he truly is, a big baby, he's nothing more than a rebellious teen in a grown-ups body as are most of his socially deviant ilk.

Google him and youtube his radio interviews to see his sheninigans, also he's the "star/lab-rat" of the documentary "I-Psychopath", I haven't seen it yet but I'm curious in seeing it. I've heard funny things about Sam's "narcissistic butthurt" behaviour in that documentary.

I know I'm being cruel and insensitive but Sam isn't exactly a saint, he's walked over other people and shows no remorse about it and he continues to do so, but as soon as he gets whats coming to him he whines. He can dish it out but can't take it.

Mysty wrote:
Narcissists actually tend to not like themselves deep down, actually. They need others to love them, put them on a pedestal, etc, as a boost to their self esteem. Without that influx from others, they don't feel good about themselves.


That might be part of the problem, but I'm sure theres other aspects to the problem of pathological Narcissism/Sociopathy.

sbcmetroguy wrote:
I actually know someone who is a bad narcissist.


Those people we call sociopaths.

sbcmetroguy wrote:
And being the generally nice guy that I am, we clash constantly.


I clash with the morally decadent as well, they used to target me, but ever since I've adopted more and more of a no BS attitude, they've stopped hassling me, the so-called "fearless" sociopath is nothing more than a coward who's been exaggerated by fools (both the sociopath himself and the "Pro's" who take clowns seriously).

mcm15501 wrote:
A year ago I dated a woman who quickly came to the conclusion that I was narcissistic - yet she had very mixed feelings about me, which is why she didn't dismiss me right away. It was when I told her of my realization of having AS that she said goodbye.


"Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction".

But I find it messed up that she didn't dismiss you when she thought you were a narcissist but she dismissed you when she knew you had AS. Why would any sane woman want a sociopath over a AS individual? I think she clearly wasn't sane.

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A narcissist require feedback and praise from others, acknowledgment of their greatness.


No they don't, what a narc requires is food, water and shelter like anyother human being. What they desire is the right to act like conceited amoral clowns with no-consequence for their actions, what they need to do is GROW UP!

Quote:
know of one in particular, my cousin. He is absolutely a true narcissist.


How do you know he's a Narc? He would have to show a wide-variety of persistant narcissistic traits to be a narc.

sunshower wrote:
Wow, now I'm a narcissist and OCPD. Today just keeps getting better and better.


I'm pretty sure Sam the clown has indeed "connected" AS with narcissism but he's pretty much relegated everything (Schizoid, Co-Dependency, ect) to "narcissism".

Sam's an imbecil, theres no "niceities" and "tact" around the morally and socially deviant.

lovecholie wrote:
Yeah, some of my friends are narcissists. They need people around to soothe their egos, or something. They are usually looking for a specific kind of attention from the opposite sex, imo. They can't stand it when they're alone. I actually feel bad for them.


How do you know your friends are N's? If they don't show a wide-variety of persistant narcissistic behaviour they aren't N's, one trait of narcissism or slight "narcissism" is not narcissism. Narcissism is a excess of a variety of disgusting social behaviour and attitudes.

cosmiccat wrote:
I think another difference between a narcissist and Autistic is that the former lacks a conscience.


Yep, pretty much, however I'm not sure if they truly "lack" a conscience or they just "ignore" it, either way they're social deviants.

cosmiccat wrote:
From what I can determine, people on the Autism Spectrum have a strong sense of right and wrong and suffer greatly when they believe they have offended someone or broken their own high code of conduct.


You hit me on the nails head that's for sure, I'm a big time justice-head, I view the labels of "moralistic" and "self-righteous" as badges of honor. I'd rather have morals and a sense of righteousness than have have no sense of morals and righteousness, it's usually just used as ridiculous ad-hominem by the morally-insane as an attempt to "shut-down" their moral antagonists.

cosmiccat wrote:
A narcissist has no regard, awareness or remorse for the pain and suffering he brings into the lives of others and has no compulsions against lying and cheating to get what he or she wants. A narcissist will not admit to being wrong about anything and blames everyone else for his or her mistakes.


Correct, this is why I refuse to show "clowns" as I like to call them any empathy, if refuse to give it to others then they don't deserve it. Relationships are "give and take", not "take them for all they're worth".

cosmiccat wrote:
An Aspie or Autie has a high regard and reverence for truth.


I feel I do, if that counts.

cosmiccat wrote:
, Austism is not a disease, a disorder, or pathological (morbid) in nature.


That's my take on it, Autism is not pathological, Narcissism on the other hand is, and it's Socio-Pathological.



wildgrape
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02 Jul 2009, 4:14 am

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the aspie typically suffers from self-loathing, even self-hatred


This statement is misleading at best as I am quite sure that self-loathing has no direct relationship with autism. The lack of self-esteem that one sometimes sees in Aspies is probably a result of ill-treatment, such as bullying at school, poor parenting, and social rejection. Although I agree that low self-esteem is a frequent problem with AS, I also believe that there are many self-confident autists.



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02 Jul 2009, 1:11 pm

I was raised by a narcissist mother, and there is a BIG difference.

From the start, she was all about appearances. The only thing that mattered to her was how anything looked to the outside world. I only mattered to her insofar as I reflected her in a favorable manner. She absolutely could not bear me differing from her in any way.

I, on the other hand, started off with absolutely no consciousness of, or particular care for, how people saw me. I was bullied into that over a number of years, and that was where the self-loathing came from. By my teens, I believed nobody liked me because I wasn't obsessed with clothes and hair like a 'proper girl' should be. (Never mind that as I'd grown older and gotten away from my mother dressing me up like a china dolly, I'd actually come out of myself and made a few friends. She used to tell me they couldn't really like me, because nobody could like anyone who looked as awful as me.)

I've spent decades overcoming this treatment, and I wonder how many other AS folks fall prey to narcissists. I suspect I was more easily manipulated than an NT kid might have been...although I've heard some real horror stories from the NT children of narcissists as well.


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Demon-Chorus
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02 Jul 2009, 4:02 pm

ThatRedHairedGrrl wrote:
I was raised by a narcissist mother, and there is a BIG difference.


My father isn't a narcissist but he has a pervading narcissistic trait, his argumentative style (he always has to be right, even when he's wrong in an argument), his regular conversation style is extremely odd/eccentric, and his approach on relationships is more along the lines of a schizoid one, he lacks the domineering/control freak narcissist factor instead opting for a schizoidly apathetic one (my mom wears the pants in the family).

ThatRedHairedGrrl wrote:
I wonder how many other AS folks fall prey to narcissists.


I would say that in my opinion, that alot of AS folks are prey for narcissists/sociopaths, however AS folks are not long term prey since I think alot of us wake up to the sociopath's d-bagish nature quite quickly and see through them quicker.

ThatRedHairedGrrl wrote:
I suspect I was more easily manipulated than an NT kid might have been.


I don't think so, everyone's a target to the sociopath, NTs are just as prone to being suckered by a sociopath, of course suckered doesn't just mean hustled, they may also be drawn in unwittingly as co-conspirators because the sociopath is so dominant and controlling and they fear him/her and so they follow the d-bag out of fear, doing bad things out of fear of the sociopathic "Alpha" destroying them in some manner.



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02 Jul 2009, 4:12 pm

Quoting Demonchorus:

Quote:
I don't think so, everyone's a target to the sociopath, NTs are just as prone to being suckered by a sociopath, of course suckered doesn't just mean hustled, they may also be drawn in unwittingly as co-conspirators because the sociopath is so dominant and controlling and they fear him/her and so they follow the d-bag out of fear, doing bad things out of fear of the sociopathic "Alpha" destroying them in some manner.


Wow. I think this is really right on.



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02 Jul 2009, 4:20 pm

I think there needs to be a differentiation between people who have a superiority complex and true narcissists. I admit to having a superiority complex but I'm not a narcissist. The main difference is that narcissists will lie and exaggerate to impress people. I refuse to do this even when it's expected of me. I care more about truth than appearances. I'm sensitive to disapproval and can lash out in defense of myself, but I rarely try to seek approval from external sources. It simply doesn't do much for me. I get in more trouble for disregarding compliments as this makes me "unappreciative" to some NT's.

As for having a superiority complex, well, that comes from the pain of alienation. I know I'm different, an outsider, and I'd rather be superior than inferior. I also have a hatred for human stupidity and banality. I realize I'm more intelligent than most and I guess that makes me feel a bit arrogant. I'll use it as a chip on my shoulder because the world depresses me and I'd rather feel contempt if that's all I have the energy for, rather than succumb to the horrible void.

A lot of intelligent aspies here seem to have superiority complexes even if they don't admit it. I don't care though because I can relate to these people more.



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02 Jul 2009, 5:43 pm

cosmiccat wrote:
Wow. I think this is really right on.


Pyschology is one of my intense-interests/hobbies, so I've put quite a bit of thought and research into it, but I don't believe I've truly figured out the mechanisms of pathological narcissism/sociopathy and the mind of the typical NT (alot of it is individual factor anyway). I'll always have something new to learn and think about. I don't really get why "pedantism" seen in such a negative light by NTs, I think learning for the sake of learning is great.

marshall wrote:
I think there needs to be a differentiation between people who have a superiority complex and true narcissists.


I think a "superiority complex" is a feeling of superiority based on a more objective truth (such as being more skilled in a area than another), while narcissism is as I said a vast collection of persistant narcissistic traits, mainly of which are delusional (falsities).



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02 Jul 2009, 6:06 pm

i recently read that people on the spectrum who seek psychiatric help are frequently misdiagnosed. (i guess this assumes that this is among those who have not been previously dx'ed as being on the spectrum.) personality disorders are pretty common, narcissistic PD included.

i think it's both interesting and sad. (according to one therapist, i'm "schizotypal." this was before asperger's and/or NLD was anyone's diagnostic map.) misdiagnoses--misinterpretations in general-- can really complicate an already confusing situation.

narcissists are generally extroverted (only so they can have a greater pool of people to manipulate); they're also pretty skilled at getting their way. i don't see too much of that in people on the spectrum.


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marshall
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02 Jul 2009, 8:17 pm

Demon-Chorus wrote:
marshall wrote:
I think there needs to be a differentiation between people who have a superiority complex and true narcissists.


I think a "superiority complex" is a feeling of superiority based on a more objective truth (such as being more skilled in a area than another), while narcissism is as I said a vast collection of persistant narcissistic traits, mainly of which are delusional (falsities).

Narcissists are often genuinely skilled in some area. They can be highly motivated. However they will go to ridiculous lengths with lying and cheating to cover up even the most minor mistake or failing. They might excel in some area only to sabotage themselves by getting caught up in some scandal or another. Most aspies are too honest to become pathological liars. Most narcissists are pathological liars. I think this is the most important factor to differentiate between arrogant aspies (they definitely exist) and a true narcissists. Aspies usually hold themselves to a self-imposed standard while narcissists have no internal sense of shame. They generally only feels shame after their cover gets blown.



twychy
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17 Nov 2009, 6:07 am

Would it be right in saying that a Narcissist can control his egocentricity and can judge during conversation if the feedback from others is going to be possative or negative and can change course during the conversation whils Aspies are not able to do so ? and can it not also be that Aspies, because they often do not always look people in the eye or have a sort of stilted speech or odd delivery of speech that might be minute really( as well as pronounced ) but that N.t's are picking up these often subtle signs and thinking it is a sign of someone telling an untruth? or for some reason they can't define they are disbelieving? and N.T's have also a lot of social factors like snobbery and jelousies that they are judging with. for instance. if my daughter tells people at work that her son has added another badge to his scouts jumper.. that gets a 'well done' signal. but if she says her daughter got a B in her ballet exam that usually gets a less enthusiastic signal so she never says anything about it. (she has deciphered from responses that ballet classes for daughters has a sort of snobbery attached to it- desrved or not)
Aspies are not aware of these sort of social interpretations perhaps and just jump in.. and cant read that others are finding their news disinteresting or judged.. and isnt then this selective acceptance of others acheivements and celebrating them a fault that lies in the community at large rather than in aspies?
My daughter who works with children with special needs and is doing a child protection course observed an adult education class of adults and found Jovial outgoing males who liked to talk about their 'navy' (or other) years were often popular in the group whilst jovial women who liked to talk about their life experiences were less popular in the group so there are many and varied subtle things that are going on in social groups that Aspies have no way of deciphering? therefore are unable to control their egocentricity to accommodate it? ... nothing atall like a Narcissist .. I was reminded that there is a lot of judgement that goes on in society and not just Aspies are being labelled and defined by it and this is having a serious negative impact on many and increasingly many more people are learning to live Aspie lives by withdrawing from society and feeling fearful of society and avoiding eye contact with others etc.. I wanted to say this because I know how upsetting it can be to try and relate to others and make friends and be labelled as something which you are not and to have no way to dispell the misconception and feel rejected and insecure



granatelli
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17 Nov 2009, 10:19 am

marshall wrote:
I think there needs to be a differentiation between people who have a superiority complex and true narcissists. I admit to having a superiority complex but I'm not a narcissist. The main difference is that narcissists will lie and exaggerate to impress people. I refuse to do this even when it's expected of me. I care more about truth than appearances. I'm sensitive to disapproval and can lash out in defense of myself, but I rarely try to seek approval from external sources. It simply doesn't do much for me. I get in more trouble for disregarding compliments as this makes me "unappreciative" to some NT's.

As for having a superiority complex, well, that comes from the pain of alienation. I know I'm different, an outsider, and I'd rather be superior than inferior. I also have a hatred for human stupidity and banality. I realize I'm more intelligent than most and I guess that makes me feel a bit arrogant. I'll use it as a chip on my shoulder because the world depresses me and I'd rather feel contempt if that's all I have the energy for, rather than succumb to the horrible void.

A lot of intelligent aspies here seem to have superiority complexes even if they don't admit it. I don't care though because I can relate to these people more.


That's just a nicer way of saying that someone is full of themselves. Whether it's narcisisim or having a superiority complex the end result is the same. You come off as an arrogant know it all who think's he's better than everyone else. And nobody likes that.

IMO choosing the wording "Superiority Complex" over "Narcissist" is just a way of trying to make an unflattering behavior not sound as bad. "He wasn't a dictator! He was just a very strong willed leader!" : )



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17 Nov 2009, 10:39 am

Sora wrote:
But hating yourself isn't caused by your autism. So I can't agree that it's typical for autistic people.

It is generally pretty true of aspies, though. Hence that whole thread about aspies being more bothered by rejection. (I know I'm oversimplifying, and that there is no clear line between HFA and AS.. but my point is that there is a huge group of autistics that do hate themselves.)
It can cause low self-esteem, mainly by way of repeated rejection.

I think it is possible to be self-absorbed without having a high opinion of oneself. You can, for that matter, be absorbed in self-hatred. It's not what would be considered typical of narcissism, but may be vaguely related. Kinda like feeling guilty for things that aren't your fault, as though you should have control over the weather or something like that. Maybe Narcissus's third cousin, twice removed.. the black sheep of the family. :-P

granatelli wrote:
"He wasn't a dictator! He was just a very strong willed leader!"

:lmao:



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17 Nov 2009, 10:42 am

I'm both Asperger and narcisistic. I don't see why they could be the opposite of eachother. Surerly they interact in strange way and sometimes narcisism "help" covering up Asperger and the other way around.

Famous people I suspect of both narcisism and Asperger/HFA:

Albert Einstein
Bill Gates
..

I can go further, basically everytime someone say: "Nah he can be an Aspie, look, he show up in pubblic doing strange things.." I think they probably don't consider that they can be both Aspie and narcisistic.


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