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23 May 2009, 12:32 pm

I've met a couple of people that I believe have Asperger's and also have what I'd define as a lower than average level of intelligence. But they function differently to NT's in the same way I function differently to NT's.

Those that have AS that I'd consider to also possess a high IQ, are similarly different in the way they function. In the end, it all comes down to how you classify and quantify intelligence.

Comparing the AS intellect to the NT intellect, might be like comparing apples to oranges. Similar quatities of quite different qualities.


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Master_Shake
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23 May 2009, 1:00 pm

Katie_WPG wrote:
There are people who lack social skills, due to their mental retardation.

Asperger's differentiates those who lack social skills due to mental retardation from those who lack social skills, but their lack of social skills can NOT be attributed to mental retardation. That's why people with IQs under 70 aren't typically considered for an Asperger's diagnosis.

Childhood IQ tests are also very spotty. Does the child understand the importance of the IQ test? If they don't, then they are more likely to goof off during the test, and score lower. The same is true with ADHD children. Are only special ed children used for this sample? Additional learning disabilities could greatly affect IQ scores.


Good post Katie. This could be summed up by saying: Those with Asperger's do not develop social skills appropriate to their developmental level.

In regards to the people who wondered whether people on this forum exaggerate their IQ scores, I'm quite sure that many do. I used to be in the same boat, telling people I had an IQ of 140 because I obtained that score on some obscure test.

Many people on this forum claim to have an IQ of around 160. An IQ of 160 with a standard deviation of 15 is seen is 3/100,000 people. Given that there are 26,785 members of this forum at the current time, we can expect that about 1 person has an IQ of 160.


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outlier
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23 May 2009, 1:27 pm

Katie_WPG wrote:
There are people who lack social skills, due to their mental retardation.


But if they have MR alone, they do not fulfill the criteria for autism-specific social impairments.

Katie_WPG wrote:
Asperger's differentiates those who lack social skills due to mental retardation from those who lack social skills, but their lack of social skills can NOT be attributed to mental retardation. That's why people with IQs under 70 aren't typically considered for an Asperger's diagnosis.


You're not considering all the autistics (i.e., those who fulfill the social impairment criteria for autism) who have MR.



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23 May 2009, 1:37 pm

outlier wrote:
Katie_WPG wrote:
There are people who lack social skills, due to their mental retardation.


But if they have MR alone, they do not fulfill the criteria for autism-specific social impairments.

Katie_WPG wrote:
Asperger's differentiates those who lack social skills due to mental retardation from those who lack social skills, but their lack of social skills can NOT be attributed to mental retardation. That's why people with IQs under 70 aren't typically considered for an Asperger's diagnosis.


You're not considering all the autistics (i.e., those who fulfill the social impairment criteria for autism) who have MR.


Autistics with IQs of around 70 still do not develop social skills according to their developmental level. A person with Down's Syndrome, for example, develops social skills appropriate to their developmental level. Though, certainly it is different for people with very low IQs such as 30 or 40, these severely impaired people won't develop much social skills at all because they have no understanding of the world around them.


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23 May 2009, 2:20 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Abstract_Logic wrote:
Individuals who are labeled with Asperger's Syndrome must, by definition, have an average to above-average intelligence level.


This is exactly what I am talking about; where is the proof for this claim! I know for a fact that this is fallacious. My ex partner works with aspergers kids, who by the way all have IQ's below 70

If they have IQs below 70, they have been misdiagnosed.



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23 May 2009, 2:39 pm

I've had my kid tested at ages 4, 6, and 8, and the result was the same: an extemely high verbal IQ and an average preformance IQ, resulting in a full scale IQ of 125. The following are my scores.:
Verbal IQ 145; Performance IQ, 98; Full Scale IQ, 120---the schools gave me the test twice when I was nine, with comment "the gap between intellect and ability must cause considerable daily frustration." And how! The gap between verabal and performance seem to be an indicator of AS or NVLD or somehting that ain't NT. Even if the full scale IQ is high or very high, the brain doctors see this as a red flag.



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23 May 2009, 3:16 pm

Master_Shake wrote:
outlier wrote:
Katie_WPG wrote:
There are people who lack social skills, due to their mental retardation.


But if they have MR alone, they do not fulfill the criteria for autism-specific social impairments.

Katie_WPG wrote:
Asperger's differentiates those who lack social skills due to mental retardation from those who lack social skills, but their lack of social skills can NOT be attributed to mental retardation. That's why people with IQs under 70 aren't typically considered for an Asperger's diagnosis.


You're not considering all the autistics (i.e., those who fulfill the social impairment criteria for autism) who have MR.


Autistics with IQs of around 70 still do not develop social skills according to their developmental level.


Yes, and neither do autistics at any IQ level. I don't understand the point you intended to make or how it, and the statements following it, address the statements by Katie_WPG or myself.

Master_Shake wrote:
A person with Down's Syndrome, for example, develops social skills appropriate to their developmental level. Though, certainly it is different for people with very low IQs such as 30 or 40, these severely impaired people won't develop much social skills at all because they have no understanding of the world around them.



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23 May 2009, 3:29 pm

My point was to back up what Katie was saying. You seem to have missed the main idea in her post.

You replied to Katie:

outlier wrote:
But if they have MR alone, they do not fulfill the criteria for autism-specific social impairments



This was exactly the point she was trying to make.

I agree that she was not considering non-AS ASD people. Traditional autism is usually comes with MR and social impairment inconsistent with developmental level.

The point of Asperger's only being diagnosed in those with IQ > 70 is because it is believed Asperger's does not affect intellectual development. People with IQ < 70 often have some kind of "brain damage" caused by disease or trauma.

Tradition autism lowers IQ, Asperger's does not. It is unlikely someone with Asperger's alone will have IQ < 70.


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23 May 2009, 4:10 pm

Autism has autism-specific social impairments that cover all IQ levels. The autism social impairment criteria are all that's required to distinguish autism-specific social impairments (at any IQ level) from any social impairments related to other conditions such as MR.

This is because autism social impairments are qualitatively different to other social impairments. Autism social impairments produce a recognisable pattern across all IQ levels.

Katie_WPG's point was that people below IQs of 70 were excluded from AS to distinguish the social skill deficits from those social skills deficits caused by MR. But all that's required to do that is apply the autism-specific social criteria, irrespective of IQ level, so it's a redundant point.


Katie_WPG wrote:
Asperger's differentiates those who lack social skills due to mental retardation from those who lack social skills, but their lack of social skills can NOT be attributed to mental retardation. That's why people with IQs under 70 aren't typically considered for an Asperger's diagnosis.



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23 May 2009, 4:41 pm

outlier wrote:
Autism has autism-specific social impairments that cover all IQ levels. The autism social impairment criteria are all that's required to distinguish autism-specific social impairments (at any IQ level) from any social impairments related to other conditions such as MR.

This is because autism social impairments are qualitatively different to other social impairments. Autism social impairments produce a recognisable pattern across all IQ levels.

Katie_WPG's point was that people below IQs of 70 were excluded from AS to distinguish the social skill deficits from those social skills deficits caused by MR. But all that's required to do that is apply the autism-specific social criteria, irrespective of IQ level, so it's a redundant point.


Katie_WPG wrote:
Asperger's differentiates those who lack social skills due to mental retardation from those who lack social skills, but their lack of social skills can NOT be attributed to mental retardation. That's why people with IQs under 70 aren't typically considered for an Asperger's diagnosis.


Ah I see your point, this is why I stated that requiring IQ > 70 is probably because Asperger's does not affect intelligence, but rather people with IQ < 70 have a condition which does negatively affect intelligence. It looks like we agree with each other but didn't understand the point each of us was trying to make, as I stated autistic people with IQ < 70 fail to develop social skills appropriate to their developmental level.


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23 May 2009, 4:57 pm

Hala wrote:
It's not a claim, it's part of the diagnostic criteria. To be diagnosed with Asperger's you have to have an average or above average IQ otherwise you will be diagnosed with a different Autistic Spectrum Disorder.


If you are so sure of this, you must have access to this particular diagnostic criteria. If so could you please publish it, because I have looked for this and can find it nowhere.

As to the idea that I am trolling :roll: All I am trying to do is discover the facts and not the urban myths. If discovering that it is possible to have a below average IQ and also have aspergers offends 'your'* sense of superiority well tough.

With regard to Intellectual Disability and IQ as I understand it if you have an IQ below 70 you are considered to have an ID. However I stand ready to be corrected.

PS * 'your' refers to anyone and may of may not include Hala


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23 May 2009, 5:06 pm

Agrees with DentArthurDent in OP.
it just seems to be used on this forum to create a heirachy,based on IQ.

Master_Shake wrote:
My point was to back up what Katie was saying. You seem to have missed the main idea in her post.

You replied to Katie:

outlier wrote:
But if they have MR alone, they do not fulfill the criteria for autism-specific social impairments



This was exactly the point she was trying to make.

I agree that she was not considering non-AS ASD people. Traditional autism is usually comes with MR and social impairment inconsistent with developmental level.

The point of Asperger's only being diagnosed in those with IQ > 70 is because it is believed Asperger's does not affect intellectual development. People with IQ < 70 often have some kind of "brain damage" caused by disease or trauma.

Tradition autism lowers IQ, Asperger's does not. It is unlikely someone with Asperger's alone will have IQ < 70.

Classic autism does not lower IQ-it has a wider IQ acceptance at both ends than aspergers does,IQ tests are especially dodgy with auties because they have a bias against individual language and communication difficulties as well as multiple learning disabilities [common with classic autism],the stronger autism gets,the more it can affect IQ.
IQ tests are crap,they're just tests, not a real insight into a persons abilities,who cares if can't do basic education but are good with using hands or computers? or are good with animals? or people [as some spectrumers are]?


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23 May 2009, 5:14 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Hala wrote:
It's not a claim, it's part of the diagnostic criteria. To be diagnosed with Asperger's you have to have an average or above average IQ otherwise you will be diagnosed with a different Autistic Spectrum Disorder.


If you are so sure of this, you must have access to this particular diagnostic criteria. If so could you please publish it, because I have looked for this and can find it nowhere.

As to the idea that I am trolling :roll: All I am trying to do is discover the facts and not the urban myths. If discovering that it is possible to have a below average IQ and also have aspergers offends 'your'* sense of superiority well tough.

With regard to Intellectual Disability and IQ as I understand it if you have an IQ below 70 you are considered to have an ID. However I stand ready to be corrected.

PS * 'your' refers to anyone and may of may not include Hala


DSM criteria:

Quote:
E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood.


KingdomOfRats wrote:
Classic autism does not lower IQ-it has a wider IQ acceptance at both ends than aspergers does


Eh? There is no diagnostic restriction on how smart a person with Asperger's can be. It is simply IQ > 70. There is no restriction on how smart a person with traditional autism can be, however in studies I have seen using people with HFA, the average IQ of those with HFA seems to be around 80. MF autistics haves IQs slightly below 70, while LF autistic can have very low IQs, around 30 or 40. I have seen a study where a group of Aspies had an average intelligence of about 104, about average.


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23 May 2009, 6:43 pm

To back up and clarify what Danielismyname was saying about it being possible for some with AS to have MR, I'll quote the DSM on that:

Quote:
In contrast to Autistic Disorder, Mental Retardation is not usually observed in Asperger's Disorder, although occasional cases in which Mild Mental Retardation is present have been noted (e.g.,when the Mental Retardation becomes apparent only in the school years, with no apparent cognitive or language delay in the first years of life).



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23 May 2009, 7:50 pm

[quote="FireBird"]Sadly I have a negative IQ. I actually have no brain aka "Anencephaly" but I have a less severe version of it, normally when you have this your skull doesn't develop normally. Its a common "human" condition, affecting nearly everyone. Their driving skills proves this. I tried looking for intelligent life on this planet, but couldn't find any. My skull is empty! I've had countless MRI's to prove this. I wish so much that I have a brain, but have no proof. And all my IQ tests were horrible!! 99% of them scored in the Borderline Intellectual Functioning range, otherwise known as BIF. I do nothing that proves I have a higher IQ than that. I can barely do simple math, know little about science, history, or any other subject that requires a brain. Yes, I could read around 3 years of age, but that was due to Hyperlexia.


Firebird - you are obviously very smart. Your writing ability combined with wonderful insight causes me to feel this way. Borderline intelligence- I wouldn't even consider this. You may not be able to do some of the things mentioned, but you are pretty darn insightful!



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24 May 2009, 5:09 am

I got the impression that the social impairment in autism is still largely different from that of someone with mild/moderate MR.

Intuitively and as kids, those with mild MR in specific totally outdo autistic kids of the same age if the autistic kids have AS/HFA for certain.

They have empathy, they can imitate, they try to get in contact with others. Way to go.


Master_Shake wrote:
Quote:
E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood.


It doesn't make much sense to discuss the criteria without the expanded text.

The expanded text is an explanation, clarification of how to understand the criteria, as they are not designed to be understood by themselves.


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