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vermontsavant
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09 Apr 2012, 6:07 am

And what really, really pisses me off is when the murderers end up looking like victims. People have said, “The mother was a victim, too.” Excuse me? A woman who kills her son and commits suicide because she hates life with her kid has made herself a victim. Elizabeth Hodgins made a choice to put a gun to her own head. And when she made that choice, she decided to take her son with her. That was a choice. That was not inevitable. That didn’t just happen.[/quote]




This was the quote i was eluding to,im not sure at this point who said it.i did initialy think it was aghogday but i may have been wrong


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aghogday
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09 Apr 2012, 1:49 pm

Verdandi wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
aghogday specificly said it pissed him off when the murderers were made into victims.i dont believe anywhere in his post did he say the parents that killed there children were in any way victims


I didn't catch that sentence. But: If it pisses him off, why does he keep doing it? Using the same excuses everyone else uses - the pressure, the possibility of mental illness, etc. to argue for understanding and compassion for those who do kill their children? Finding explanations that mitigate their responsibility?


I have already clearly stated that I do not consider these parents as victims. I have reported third party facts as they relate to the discussion. You have provided no quote where I have done this on a personal basis.

If you would like to refute any facts that I have presented, with actual third party evidence, please feel welcome to do so. But, I am asking you kindly not to state that I am making excuses for the responsibility that the parents bear for their personal actions. If a parent is not convicted on a charge of murder, they still bear the consequence of being sent to a mental institution. However neither I nor anyone else makes that decision other than a court of law.

The pressures the parents face, the possibility of mental illness, the argument for understanding and compassion for the other family members of the victims that are not involved in the killing or a murder/suicide is evidenced and directed by mental health professionals to appropriately deal with the situation. I've already stated, and evidenced through third party sources, that this is professional advice, not my advice.

And finally, as to why I am presenting the evidence, it is to refute any suggestion that autism awareness efforts have any association with these murders. I've already made that point clear. That is the topic of this OP. And, also to provide sound advice from mental health professionals as to how one goes about preventing future occurences of these tragedies. I've already made that point clear as well.

The Op made an association that some of the people that supported the light it up blue iniative were expressing sympathy for the parents; it is also possible that they support breast cancer awareness month as well, but that certainly doesn't make breast cancer awareness month an issue in these tragedies. If one can imagine a statement like Breast Cancer Awareness - The Murder of Autistics.

In my opinion that association neither shows respect for the victims of the tragedy and their families, nor respect for the potential millions of individuals across the world that are making a sincere effort together to raise awareness of autism through the light it up blue iniative, in an attempt to make life better for all autistics.



aghogday
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09 Apr 2012, 2:29 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
And what really, really pisses me off is when the murderers end up looking like victims. People have said, “The mother was a victim, too.” Excuse me? A woman who kills her son and commits suicide because she hates life with her kid has made herself a victim. Elizabeth Hodgins made a choice to put a gun to her own head. And when she made that choice, she decided to take her son with her. That was a choice. That was not inevitable. That didn’t just happen.





vermontsavant wrote:
This was the quote i was eluding to,im not sure at this point who said it.i did initialy think it was aghogday but i may have been wrong


That was actually a quote from a blogger's opinion that Vernandi provided, where I couldn't find an instance of a parent actually literally saying 'the mother was a victim too." Someone somewhere, out of 350 million people, may have said it, in this literal manner, but it's not reflective of most people's respectful opinions on an incident like this, per the articles I have read. One of the reasons people are respectful is because of the suriving family members of the victim and the killer of the victim.

There is no rational reason why a simple statement of sympathy like it is a tragedy or sad event, should be seen as offensive by anyone.

Wanting to to try to figure out why it happened, through speculation is common in most every murder suicide, that is published in the media.

In the case of the mother of the two autistic children who was Muslim, religion was speculated as a reason for the murder. However, to date, there is reports that she was a psychotic individual.



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09 Apr 2012, 4:11 pm

sorry about that


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DogsWithoutHorses
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09 Apr 2012, 4:45 pm

Are we seriously arguing whether or not autistic lives are devalued in the coverage and response to these murders? Compare the uproar and rage directed at Casey Anthony (who wasn't even convicted) to the "just goes to show how desperately we need more services" narrative that rears it's head in the comments section of every article if not the article itself, reporting an autistic person's murder.
We have to be militant in asserting our humanity because when we don't, we die and nobody cares.
We aren't puzzles to solve in a bathtub or with a gun, we're people with a right to life and a right to justice.
Until sentencing for the murderers of autistic children match the sentencing for the murderers of allistic children the justice system is sending a clear message that we're worth less.
The issue with Autism Speaks and the Light it up Blue campaign is that it pushed the tragedy narrative of autism. They produce spooky psa's and raise money for their charity by using autism as a boogeyman to scare people. Autism Speaks has an unfortunately heavy hand in influencing the pubic conceptualization of autistic people and when they call our lives tragedies they make our deaths seem like or a merciful release, or a direct result of our *terrible awful lie destroying, marriage ending disease*, instead of a direct result of the action of our parents/caregivers.



vermontsavant
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09 Apr 2012, 5:20 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Are we seriously arguing whether or not autistic lives are devalued in the coverage and response to these murders? Compare the uproar and rage directed at Casey Anthony (who wasn't even convicted) to the "just goes to show how desperately we need more services" narrative that rears it's head in the comments section of every article if not the article itself, reporting an autistic person's murder.
We have to be militant in asserting our humanity because when we don't, we die and nobody cares.
We aren't puzzles to solve in a bathtub or with a gun, we're people with a right to life and a right to justice.
Until sentencing for the murderers of autistic children match the sentencing for the murderers of allistic children the justice system is sending a clear message that we're worth less.
The issue with Autism Speaks and the Light it up Blue campaign is that it pushed the tragedy narrative of autism. They produce spooky psa's and raise money for their charity by using autism as a boogeyman to scare people. Autism Speaks has an unfortunately heavy hand in influencing the pubic conceptualization of autistic people and when they call our lives tragedies they make our deaths seem like or a merciful release, or a direct result of our *terrible awful lie destroying, marriage ending disease*, instead of a direct result of the action of our parents/caregivers.
well said


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aghogday
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09 Apr 2012, 8:09 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Are we seriously arguing whether or not autistic lives are devalued in the coverage and response to these murders? Compare the uproar and rage directed at Casey Anthony (who wasn't even convicted) to the "just goes to show how desperately we need more services" narrative that rears it's head in the comments section of every article if not the article itself, reporting an autistic person's murder.
We have to be militant in asserting our humanity because when we don't, we die and nobody cares.
We aren't puzzles to solve in a bathtub or with a gun, we're people with a right to life and a right to justice.
Until sentencing for the murderers of autistic children match the sentencing for the murderers of allistic children the justice system is sending a clear message that we're worth less.
The issue with Autism Speaks and the Light it up Blue campaign is that it pushed the tragedy narrative of autism. They produce spooky psa's and raise money for their charity by using autism as a boogeyman to scare people. Autism Speaks has an unfortunately heavy hand in influencing the pubic conceptualization of autistic people and when they call our lives tragedies they make our deaths seem like or a merciful release, or a direct result of our *terrible awful lie destroying, marriage ending disease*, instead of a direct result of the action of our parents/caregivers.


Depending on the media source most every story that hits the public is distorted to garner attention from a target audience. Some reports have presented fair coverage, some have not. This type of reporting is not a specific issue to the rare cases of evidenced mentally ill parents killing their children, or those involved in murder/suicides.

The focus of the parent that was Muslim, was distorted by those that commented to suggest that the killing was religiously motivated. Extreme rage in comments was evidenced in that autistic killing, although there are reports that the woman was schizophrenic and psychotic, as is reported in other cases of filicide when an insanity defense is used.

These type of events are tragedies and extremely sad for the remaining family members that suffer emotionally as a result of the tragedies, regardless of the motivation and intent of the killers, which in the case of murder/suicides can only be speculated on.

The sentences or consequences the parents receive, are a product of the justice system, as are the sentences and consequences that all other individuals receive that are tried in a court of law.

When the parents are not convicted because of insanity, this is no different than any other case in a court of law, when the courts prove insanity as a defense. Insanity and acts as a result of insanity can be horrifying, and fortunately are a rare part of the human condition, but the violent acts that result in these rare cases of insanity, often meet no rational parameters.

As per evidence presented at the beginning of this thread, Autism Speaks provides a much kinder view of autism, currently, than the mainstream media, per comments from ABC news, in the US, that the new prevalence figures are terrifying along with media sources such as the "Daily Mail", that suggest that there is a population of parents of autistics out there on the edge waiting to snap.

In your post you are reporting the '"tragedy narrative" story line of the "spooky" "I am Autism Video" directed at the condition of autism not autistic individuals. The video was made 3 years ago, for a United Nations conference, and has been eliminated from autism speaks website for three years because some took offense to it. The only place this tragedy line is being reported now is in online autistic communities. It has been the only source where a parent or a child can gain knowledge of that storyline, since 2009.

This was never a mainstream video advertisement, it was produced for a conference. Autism Speaks has not used this type of description of autism since the complaint that some took offense to the video was reported to them.

These cases where parents kill their autistic children are extremely rare, and statistically linked in research to mental illness as are most cases of filicide and murder/suicides.

While two or three of these incidences on average are reported annually, in the US, there are millions of autistic parents that successfully parent their children, regardless of the severity of the condition, per actual research.

Per actual objective evidence provided by mental health professionals these incidences cannot be explained soley by the lack government sources, or the severity of autism that the parent is able to accommodate as an effective caregiver.

Those who are suggesting that somehow advocacy programs that raise awareness of the reality that autism is a serious difficulty for some children is to blame for horrifying incidences, or the lack of government services, or the general stress levels of all parents of children, are using generalities that do not effectively explain the rarity of the occurrences, per research.

While it may give comfort to people to blame the incidences on the lack of government services or advocacy programs for awareness, the only human being to blame is the person that did the killing regardless if they were sane or insane at the time of the killing. They will suffer the consequences, whether it is prison, or a mental institution.

As far as changing the distortion of news events that are common in many media sources, the only possible way to limit this is censorship by governments that limit freedom of speech.

If one does not agree with the distortions by the media the comments section is the appropriate place for those comments in these articles; rational discourse is the effective way to influence opinon. Name calling or emotional outbursts shuts down any potential of effective changes in opinion.

Some of the private media outlets are going to continue to present the story, in a form that gains the greatest attention. Nothing is going to change that, unless the government takes over with censorship.

And as far as prosecutions of individuals that commit violence that are found to be insane by a court of law, the penalties are already established, by the law, with some latitude by the judges that make the final decisions on the sentencing. No two judges hold identical subjective opinions when it comes to sentencing.

The lives of animals with disabilities are devalued most everywhere one looks in the animal kingdom, of which human beings are a scientifically classified member. There is no doubt that it is a part of the reality of being alive, for most animals, including human beings.

It is society/culture/civilization and resulting courts and laws, along with public health efforts that one can thank for accommodating human beings with disabilities, as well as some other animals. These accommodations provide people and some other animals the opportunity to fulfill their potential, regardless of disability.



Last edited by aghogday on 10 Apr 2012, 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nostromo
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10 Apr 2012, 5:01 am

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Are we seriously arguing whether or not autistic lives are devalued in the coverage and response to these murders? Compare the uproar and rage directed at Casey Anthony (who wasn't even convicted) to the "just goes to show how desperately we need more services" narrative that rears it's head in the comments section of every article if not the article itself, reporting an autistic person's murder.
We have to be militant in asserting our humanity because when we don't, we die and nobody cares.
We aren't puzzles to solve in a bathtub or with a gun, we're people with a right to life and a right to justice.
Until sentencing for the murderers of autistic children match the sentencing for the murderers of allistic children the justice system is sending a clear message that we're worth less.

In criminal sentencing, the crime is one factor, circumstances are others.
In the case of someone who murders someone where there is a large amount of stress - such as most of the cases where people kill autistic children - that is considered a mitigating factor, and henceforth the sentence is lighter - not because the murdered persons life is worth any less.



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10 Apr 2012, 8:26 am

Most parents/caregivers that murder children are probably in a very stressful situation. The issue is that the perceived stress of raising an autistic child is grossly exaggerated. There is no real difference between the death of an autistic child and the death of an allistic child but they're treated differently by media and by courts. Acting as though our justice system is infallible or even not horrendously skewed against minorities is ridiculous. Denying media's/public opinion's influence on the justice system is also pretty silly.
And I know big words are fun, but they're even more fun when they're used correctly.

aghogday I'll have to reply to later because that's yet another huge block of text to pick through for any pertinent content and I'd like to give them the courtesy of taking it down point by irrelevant point.



Marcia
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10 Apr 2012, 12:22 pm

When using recently invented words, such as "allistic", which are known to and used by a small group of people, it would be helpful if they could be defined. Etymology and the thinking behind its use would be interesting too.



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10 Apr 2012, 3:14 pm

Marcia wrote:
When using recently invented words, such as "allistic", which are known to and used by a small group of people, it would be helpful if they could be defined. Etymology and the thinking behind its use would be interesting too.


It's a brand name for an online company used as a catchy phrase to sell clothing items.

Quote:
Allistic – “All is, that I see.”

We live by the statement above, and this brand is meant to introduce it to you as well. The statement in itself was made to show that all of the opportunities and situations around us are only a reflection of how we choose to understand and act upon our own mentalities. Often forced to be defined by a stereotype or bias of which we are not – where does triumph reside in the world?

Simple… It resides in our development of self. Reach to the limits we know you can break, recognize the way you are invaluable, and last, tell us what you see.

Allistic burst from the womb of possibilities, and we are growing it to refine and modernize the collective urban culture. It will begin pure and innocent, but we ask you to join us in its progression from societal influence to influencing society.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Find humility by finding beauty in the slums.




http://www.allistic.com/faq

For those that have decided to use the term as a synonym for non-autistic, it is going to be good free advertisement for the clothing company, for those trying to figure out what it means with a google search.

http://allismspeaks.tumblr.com/terminology

Quote:
Terminology

General terms:

Autistic: being on what is known as the Autism Spectrum.

Allistic: being not on the Autism Spectrum (or perhaps , someone who is on the allistic spectrum). This is usually considered “the norm” in our world.

Neuroatypical: someone who has some mental, psychological, or neurological conditions considered different to the typical brain (such as depression, OCD, AD(H)D, schizophrenia, autism, and others).

Neurotypical: The opposite of neuroatypical; someone who’s brain-workings are considered “typical.”

OOC: “out-of-character” meaning a post that is not written within the Allism Speaks universe but in our actual world.


It appears that someone, in the autistic community has come up with a word that is more confusing than neurotypical. :)

Interestingly, the clothing company describes the word somewhere in the ball park of the all inclusive definition of neurodiversity. They choose not to use an us vs. them ideology :) .



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10 Apr 2012, 3:35 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Most parents/caregivers that murder children are probably in a very stressful situation. The issue is that the perceived stress of raising an autistic child is grossly exaggerated. There is no real difference between the death of an autistic child and the death of an allistic child but they're treated differently by media and by courts. Acting as though our justice system is infallible or even not horrendously skewed against minorities is ridiculous. Denying media's/public opinion's influence on the justice system is also pretty silly.
And I know big words are fun, but they're even more fun when they're used correctly.

aghogday I'll have to reply to later because that's yet another huge block of text to pick through for any pertinent content and I'd like to give them the courtesy of taking it down point by irrelevant point.


No one in this thread has suggested that the justice system is infallible or that the media or public opinion does not influence the justice system.

However, there is no empirical evidence that this is an issue specific to the 2 or 3 reported incidences of parents killing autistic children per year.

The stress of raising any child is highly dependent upon the coping strategies that individuals use, per actual research.

Can you provide one example of where someone's stress has been exaggerated in taking care of an autistic child. How would you as an individual, be able to define or understand their stress?



Last edited by aghogday on 10 Apr 2012, 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Apr 2012, 5:15 pm

I also don't think anyone has said that raising an autistic child isn't stressful. (I mean, raising /any/ child is stressful.)

What people have said is that treating the murder of an autistic child differently than the murder of a neurotypical child is unacceptable.



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10 Apr 2012, 5:44 pm

Tragedies of this nature take place in countries where the light it up blue campaign and Autism Speaks aren't present or have minimal publicity so I don't think there is any relationship between these killings and those campaigns.

Here's a controversial thought for you.

Has anyone considered that the parents who do kill their autistic children, and kill or attempt to kill themselves, are themselves autistic, but undiagnosed because of their age?

Most people here with a diagnosis can see autistic traits in older family members, and many parents whose children are diagnosed then come to a realisation that they themselves may be autistic. So, it seems fair to assume that there is a strong possibility that at least some of these parents are themselves on the Spectrum.

The overwhelming majority of parents of autistic children, even when their lives are at the most stressful, do not resort to these lethal extremes. But those parents are able to find support and help from a variety of sources, including friends and family, support groups, health professionals, social services and so on.

A parent who is on the Spectrum is less likely to be have a strong support network as they have difficulty making and sustaining those relationships, and so they will be become increasingly isolated with possibly no help, or opportunities for venting, practical assistance or support. They may find it difficult to reach out to social services, to make phone calls, complete the masses of paperwork often required for support to be provided, or to communicate how much they are struggling.

What's more, sensory issues would make it even more stressful to be cooped up with someone who may scream, bang or throw objects, have no sense of personal space, eating difficulties, toileting problems and so on. And no respite, no help.

Isolation, sensory stress, communication difficulties, inability to access or accept help and support - all these things seem to be common to many of these murders or murder/suicides.

Sometimes people can't cope, it gets too much and they snap. The consequences are horrific for child and for parent. To be able to empathise to some degree with that struggle is not to say it's ok. Rather it is to say that this should not have happened and that we need to be able to identify the triggers to prevent such horror happening again.



aghogday
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10 Apr 2012, 9:08 pm

Tuttle wrote:
I also don't think anyone has said that raising an autistic child isn't stressful. (I mean, raising /any/ child is stressful.)

What people have said is that treating the murder of an autistic child differently than the murder of a neurotypical child is unacceptable.


Actually until you just used the term, no one has mentioned the NT term in context of the actual topic of this thread yet. I was responding to the statement that was made that the perceived stress of an raising an autistic person is highly exagerrated.

My point is that the only person that can fully determine the severity of that stress is the actual person undergoing the stress. There is always the potential that the stress could be exagerrated at either a lower level or a higher level, by third party sources.

The term "allistic" was used in the recent post that addresses this issue. There is no empirical evidence that murdered autistic children with severe disabilities are given any less respect than murdered allistic children with severe disabilities.

It is no secret, that in general, there are some in society that do not place the same value on people with disabilities, as they do with people without disabilities. Our laws provide accommodations in an attempt to mitigate this reality.

The focus of conversation in the comments section of an internet article over a murder/suicide or filicide of an autistic child with severe disabilities, is commonly focused on speculation of the circumstances that led to the horrifying act of violence and away from the victim.

It is common to most every case like this; whether it is extreme focus of anger because the muslim religion has been speculated as a factor leading up to the act of violence, or it is stress/mental illness/lack of government services, and support from others; or PTSD and lack of support for combat veterans, as well many other scenarios reported in internet media articles.

The conversation is often directed away from sympathy for the actual victim or victims of the circumstances regardless of whether or not the victim is an autistic child with severe disabilities, an "allistic" child with severe disabilities, or a child with no disabilities. I have provided evidence in this thread that this is not an autistic specific issue

None of have us have any real idea what the severity of the stress or the severity of the potential mental illness of parents that actually kill their children are except for the parents responsible for the action of violence.

However, research from highly respected mental health organizations, suggest that the majority of these individuals, that commit these extremely rare incidences of filicide-homicides/murder suffer from mental illness.

In terms of the media, statements from extreme sources, like the daily mail, that suggest that there is a population of autistic parents, on the brink of snapping, is indeed a general statement of exageration of stress among autistic parents, but there is no empirical evidence that statements like that, from resources that are commonly understood to be of questionable reputability, play any role in the average 2 or 3 rare cases of the killing of autistic children by parents, reported in the media in any given year.

And, there has been no empirical evidence presented in this thread, that the light it up blue awareness initiative for advocacy of autism, deserves a place in the same sentence with autistic murders; per the OP topic.



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11 Apr 2012, 8:07 pm

i think the real issue is the societal trend toward euthinasia,abortion and the believe that people with a sickness would more at peace dead.i am certainly not saying killing an autistic child is the same as taking someone off life suport.in the case of assisted suicide the sick patient wants to die.however i can see having some compasion for these parents


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