Page 3 of 6 [ 93 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Moromillas
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 3 Jul 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 455

03 Nov 2014, 2:49 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
Just because you aren't following my reason or logic, does not mean it is not there. Spend time in PPR and you quickly realize that many extremely opposiong paths can all be forged in the name of reason and logic.

And we aren't dealing with facts, we are dealing with OPINION. The issue you and I have been debating is entirely one of perception and opinion. Historic dates and mathematical equations are facts. When a difference crosses the line to possible disability, and whether or not accepting that the word might sometimes apply to a limited number of situations is OK? Not so much.


Yeah, there's my opinion, which is correct and based on facts, logic and reason. Then there's your opinion, which is incorrect and based on metaphors, fallacy and anecdotes.

There's no debate here. Your question, is ill formed, it's not a valid way to determine if someone is disabled or not.



B19
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,993
Location: New Zealand

03 Nov 2014, 3:17 am

An issue that I think squarely belongs on the agenda for that conference is the obvious one of economic exclusion.

The imposition of recruitment practices designed for NTs by Nts are very discriminatory against the whole group on the spectrum - perhaps amounting to millions of people worldwide.

The complete failure, thus far, to acknowledge ASD needs and offer options at recruitment effectively ensures ecomonic oppression.

Nt's show their bias for their own kind clearly- the preference for oral interviews, panels with everyone expecting eye contact, open questions, more than one person firing questions at you.. ASD people have never been considered at all as to how to level the playing field. Perhaps because they don't want to employ people they privately label in insulting ways.

This is an urgent and very neglected issue: how to extend equal opportunities based on talent, ability to do the job, training etc. to candidates on the spectrum. We are not all geeks who can work in silicon valley.

Meanwhile the invisible gatekeeping continues, unchallenged and accepted as "that's just the way it is" - which translates to "and that's the way we Nts like it".

If you don't even recognise the right of people to basic equal rights like this, forget about all the hot air about how to offer support etc;
when people who say they want to "help" and then ignore the core things like equal rights, they just comes across to me as hypocritical
and if they extended equal employment opportunities to us, then there would be much less need for NT "support and help".

Help is often the sunny side of control, especially when practiced by dominant groups on minority groups.

Secondly, this conference needs to deal with the issue of stigmatisation of ASD people which - again - the NT's who want to "help" us at the conference will no doubt ignore. Oppression thrives when priorities that serve the dominant group underlie initiatives like this conference. Excluding ASD people simply underlines what the real agendas are.



Moromillas
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 3 Jul 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 455

03 Nov 2014, 4:35 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
So what, then, should the discussion be when the Church creates this forum on how to serve the needs of the ASD community? How do you want to phrase the issues that many with ASD face in having their gifts recognized in the school system, keeping a job, and so on? There ARE things that this community wants the greater NT world to acknowledge and allow for; so what phrasing do we use when asking? I'm not fond of the word "disability," either, but it gets the dialogue going, of someone willing to say, "what do you need from me so that you can succeed?" Even if the answer is as basic as, "could my co-workers not hold it against me when I don't want to go bar hoping with them?" That dialogue DOES need to happen, would you not agree, seeing the host of issues that members of Wrong Planet post about?


For therein lies the crux.

Is it best to use the word disability just to get what we want, to alter their perceptions, try and put the idea in their head that we need more support. We could keep saying that we're disabled and need a pension to live, but that would be a lie. What we need is parity with NTs, they've a massive amount of community support, a massive leg up, and we've naught. No, not naught, we can lie our asses off, call ourselves disabled, and collect a pension.

That pension, is nothing short of an insult.

It is a pittance compared to what NTs get. We can't live without it, because we don't have peerage or parity, and they won't want to provide real solutions, because to them, we're of no value, we're not worth doing that. Lets just provide them with just enough so as they don't starve, just to shut them up, so I don't have to deal with bad PR. And what kind of life is that to live, just sit our asses waiting for the taxman to show up and toss us a pittance.

For education, they need to recognise that AS people are not suited to perform well in NT schools. To realise that all that socialising is a bucketload of extra work, and they need to factor that into scores that determine your future, like SAT scores.

A real solution is needed for meltdowns in NT schools, not just sending them home early when they can't cope, or keep cutting out subjects.

The infrastructure that exists supports only the NT community. The idea of AS schools is a sound one, and should be seen as a solid investment, not met with skepticism. Build more schools that are designed for and suited to AS people, we have a veritable ton of NT schools, and next to nil AS ones. This is (I believe) a step in the right direction when it comes to closing the gap between the amount of support NT and AS people get.



DrHouseHasAspergers
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2009
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 310

03 Nov 2014, 8:35 am

Moromillas wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Just because you aren't following my reason or logic, does not mean it is not there. Spend time in PPR and you quickly realize that many extremely opposiong paths can all be forged in the name of reason and logic.

And we aren't dealing with facts, we are dealing with OPINION. The issue you and I have been debating is entirely one of perception and opinion. Historic dates and mathematical equations are facts. When a difference crosses the line to possible disability, and whether or not accepting that the word might sometimes apply to a limited number of situations is OK? Not so much.


Yeah, there's my opinion, which is correct and based on facts, logic and reason. Then there's your opinion, which is incorrect and based on metaphors, fallacy and anecdotes.

There's no debate here. Your question, is ill formed, it's not a valid way to determine if someone is disabled or not.


You can't tell someone their opinion is wrong because you don't agree with it. Your opinion is that your AS is not a disability and that's fine. But you cannot tell someone else what they are experiencing because you are not the one experiencing it! Fact is that AS/ASD is a disability for a lot of people and you have no right to tell every single one of them that they are wrong just because you don't think your AS is a disability. Your AS is not their AS/ASD. Everyone experiences it differently and there are varying levels of severity, some (or many) of which are actually disabling.


_________________
Diagnosed Asperger's - 2007
Current AQ score: 43
Current PDD score: 105 - moderate
http://www.childbrain.com/pddassess.html

-Socially awkward and special interests don't mean autism.-


DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,683
Location: Northern California

03 Nov 2014, 12:40 pm

B19 wrote:
An issue that I think squarely belongs on the agenda for that conference is the obvious one of economic exclusion.

The imposition of recruitment practices designed for NTs by Nts are very discriminatory against the whole group on the spectrum - perhaps amounting to millions of people worldwide.

The complete failure, thus far, to acknowledge ASD needs and offer options at recruitment effectively ensures ecomonic oppression.

Nt's show their bias for their own kind clearly- the preference for oral interviews, panels with everyone expecting eye contact, open questions, more than one person firing questions at you.. ASD people have never been considered at all as to how to level the playing field. Perhaps because they don't want to employ people they privately label in insulting ways.

This is an urgent and very neglected issue: how to extend equal opportunities based on talent, ability to do the job, training etc. to candidates on the spectrum. We are not all geeks who can work in silicon valley.

Meanwhile the invisible gatekeeping continues, unchallenged and accepted as "that's just the way it is" - which translates to "and that's the way we Nts like it".

If you don't even recognise the right of people to basic equal rights like this, forget about all the hot air about how to offer support etc;
when people who say they want to "help" and then ignore the core things like equal rights, they just comes across to me as hypocritical
and if they extended equal employment opportunities to us, then there would be much less need for NT "support and help".

Help is often the sunny side of control, especially when practiced by dominant groups on minority groups.

Secondly, this conference needs to deal with the issue of stigmatisation of ASD people which - again - the NT's who want to "help" us at the conference will no doubt ignore. Oppression thrives when priorities that serve the dominant group underlie initiatives like this conference. Excluding ASD people simply underlines what the real agendas are.


This is really well said - we should all include these points in the letters and emails we are writing about having Autism Speaks being the only representative for us. Following up protest will constructive information (or leading with the constructive information before making the protest) gives us a better chance of being heard.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,683
Location: Northern California

03 Nov 2014, 12:49 pm

Moromillas wrote:

For education, they need to recognise that AS people are not suited to perform well in NT schools. To realise that all that socialising is a bucketload of extra work, and they need to factor that into scores that determine your future, like SAT scores.

A real solution is needed for meltdowns in NT schools, not just sending them home early when they can't cope, or keep cutting out subjects.

The infrastructure that exists supports only the NT community. The idea of AS schools is a sound one, and should be seen as a solid investment, not met with skepticism. Build more schools that are designed for and suited to AS people, we have a veritable ton of NT schools, and next to nil AS ones. This is (I believe) a step in the right direction when it comes to closing the gap between the amount of support NT and AS people get.


This is really useful, and more points that should be added to the letters.

Just as an aside, because I like it said just as you have written it, schooling even for ASD kids isn't one size fits all. My son is doing well fully mainstreamed but with accommodations and supports; even though he hates the rubric of it all, he has noted he has more trouble being around just kids with ASD - their stims et al get on his sensory nerves, which is a bit of a conundrum for him. He's really comfortable in the worlds of scouting and tech, where people are quirky and there is a lot of ASD, but it isn't the only thing he experiences. Other kids are different, though, and several new schools have opened in our area catering to ASD kids; the families that go to them love them; the kids apparently are happy and thriving. But, as I've noted before, we live in an area with a large ASD cluster and acceptance is more the norm than elsewhere, albeit still imperfect. With so many areas just trying to wish their ASD students away (read the parenting board and you realize how true that is), your point about school is VERY valid.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,683
Location: Northern California

03 Nov 2014, 12:50 pm

DrHouseHasAspergers wrote:
Moromillas wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Just because you aren't following my reason or logic, does not mean it is not there. Spend time in PPR and you quickly realize that many extremely opposiong paths can all be forged in the name of reason and logic.

And we aren't dealing with facts, we are dealing with OPINION. The issue you and I have been debating is entirely one of perception and opinion. Historic dates and mathematical equations are facts. When a difference crosses the line to possible disability, and whether or not accepting that the word might sometimes apply to a limited number of situations is OK? Not so much.


Yeah, there's my opinion, which is correct and based on facts, logic and reason. Then there's your opinion, which is incorrect and based on metaphors, fallacy and anecdotes.

There's no debate here. Your question, is ill formed, it's not a valid way to determine if someone is disabled or not.


You can't tell someone their opinion is wrong because you don't agree with it. Your opinion is that your AS is not a disability and that's fine. But you cannot tell someone else what they are experiencing because you are not the one experiencing it! Fact is that AS/ASD is a disability for a lot of people and you have no right to tell every single one of them that they are wrong just because you don't think your AS is a disability. Your AS is not their AS/ASD. Everyone experiences it differently and there are varying levels of severity, some (or many) of which are actually disabling.


Thank you.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


alpineglow
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,002

03 Nov 2014, 1:45 pm

To preface this, I wrote this in a hurry and did not edit it much: I apologize in advance for its errors.

1. A person (OP Aspendos) left the Catholic Church because of not only no representation at the Synod, but in fact mis-represented by Autism Speaks.

2. The Catholic Church needs to be fully aware of the issues of a group that it wants to help, including the issue of the contentions with Autism Speaks.
A list of those contentious issues needs writing, clearly and as skillfully as possible - so that it can be presented. B19 wrote that help is often the sunny side of control. This concern has to be expressed in the letter or list.

3. The Catholic Church might best be reminded/informed by one of its own - someone with an understanding of both Catholic tenets AND autism; that in partnering with Autism Speaks it strongly suggests eugenics to the autistic community. Plus, Catholics are against abortion, period. So this is in fact a wedge which might be employed to divide the Church from Autism Speaks(?). Please excuse me if I did not express that very well. (DW a mom?)

4. Creating schools &/or enhancing existing schools for appropriate and healthy educational opportunities for children and adults on the spectrum would be a positive step for the church to take. Members of the local business communities could both learn from and assist in these efforts. And if the schools and Catholic Church 'marketed' this....perhaps a certain amount of social change could begin. What about presenting all of this to Sal Khan, of Khan Academy too? That might integrate some of the issues with other educational changes that seem to be happening already. (The way Khan Academy is set up seems an ideal tie-in to me, for many reasons.)



DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,683
Location: Northern California

03 Nov 2014, 5:38 pm

^^^ close enough


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


B19
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,993
Location: New Zealand

03 Nov 2014, 6:28 pm

One way to focus on the hidden agendas and issues in this conference: (not the only way of course)

1) read the programme- just read it, suspending judgment in the first instance;

2) read it again, only this time take a "reading between the lines" approach - specifically, focus on what isn't there - then make a rough and ready list of anything that springs to mind (don't evaluate at this stage, just note issues down);

3) have a strong cup of tea or whatever and disengage for a while, clear your mind;

4) review the list - sort the issues into categories, under sub-headings

(eg for me, it would be these issues:

Economic oppression;
Stigmatisation - in theory and practice;
ASD voicelessness and the perpetuation of silencing ASD voices by exclusion;
Institutionally entrenched failure to accord full human rights, dignity and respect to ASD persons;
The negative impacts and lifelong consequences of oppression at institutional levels;
Existing barriers to equal opportunities in education, employment, financial security;
The implications of treating ASD as if it were only a "family" or "medical" or "pathological" issue;
Policies, practices, strategies to promote the liberation of the ASD population
Working toward a Declaration of Rights, and a plan/timeline for its presentation to the UN

....

Obviously I've chosen to approach this in a radically different from the "pathological" approach that the organisers (and no doubt Autism Speaks as a prime mover behind the scenes) have elected to promote. They are worlds apart, in fact. (Oops, my bad for forgetting we are on the wrong planet...)

You may have different ideas, I'm not saying this is the only approach, far from it.



Moromillas
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 3 Jul 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 455

04 Nov 2014, 8:01 pm

DrHouseHasAspergers wrote:
You can't tell someone their opinion is wrong because you don't agree with it. Your opinion is that your AS is not a disability and that's fine. But you cannot tell someone else what they are experiencing because you are not the one experiencing it! Fact is that AS/ASD is a disability for a lot of people and you have no right to tell every single one of them that they are wrong just because you don't think your AS is a disability. Your AS is not their AS/ASD. Everyone experiences it differently and there are varying levels of severity, some (or many) of which are actually disabling.


Yes, you can, because an opinion does not trump a fact, and is not greater than fact. Opinions are completely irrelevant, just like yours is, when one tries to pass it off as factual. When you couldn't grasp basic concepts like the burden of proof, I wouldn't expect you to understand this, however you shouldn't comment on things you're unable to understand.



Moromillas
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 3 Jul 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 455

04 Nov 2014, 8:11 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Just as an aside, because I like it said just as you have written it, schooling even for ASD kids isn't one size fits all. My son is doing well fully mainstreamed but with accommodations and supports; even though he hates the rubric of it all, he has noted he has more trouble being around just kids with ASD - their stims et al get on his sensory nerves, which is a bit of a conundrum for him. He's really comfortable in the worlds of scouting and tech, where people are quirky and there is a lot of ASD, but it isn't the only thing he experiences. Other kids are different, though, and several new schools have opened in our area catering to ASD kids; the families that go to them love them; the kids apparently are happy and thriving. But, as I've noted before, we live in an area with a large ASD cluster and acceptance is more the norm than elsewhere, albeit still imperfect. With so many areas just trying to wish their ASD students away (read the parenting board and you realize how true that is), your point about school is VERY valid.


Same for me, all those years ago, same with our crew, for the vast majority I doubt any of them find odd behavior comforting. Another thing I've found with Aspergians, I don't know how many go though this, but when you're young, you find yourself pushing the limits, not just to achieve great things, rather that you would be accepted more. The line of thinking is something like: "If I prove I can do this this and this, and better than everyone else, they can't be condescending and say I don't understand." "If I obliterate this and this, they can't act all superior around me and treat me like a dolt." So that's (I believe) another factor when it comes to integration and identity, you can see these kids not doing well, and understandably want to distance yourself from them. Yet they don't realise that when you do well, that's seen as "overcoming Asperger's".



PlainsAspie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Jul 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 518
Location: USA

18 Nov 2014, 4:07 pm

Here's a new article about it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/ ... a-26989583

Quote:
Autism experts said parents of autistic children require particular pastoral care since they are at high risk of getting divorced due to the emotional and financial stress of dealing with their child's disorder.


One step to ending stigma is to stop portraying these things as fact when the research really isn't that conclusive. :wall:



B19
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,993
Location: New Zealand

18 Nov 2014, 4:29 pm

Maybe the bottom line all along was the Catholic Churches agenda of opposing divorce for any reason at all, irrespective of how horrendous spousal abuse may be or any of the other marital atrocities that are daily occurences. It figures.



B19
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jan 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,993
Location: New Zealand

18 Nov 2014, 4:42 pm

I hope this gets discussed at the conference by Francis, as an example of the Catholic respect and acceptance of people with autism..
Leopards and spots, leopards and spots...


"In 2006, a 10-year-old Arizona boy with autism was denied taking Holy Communion by his Catholic church. Holy Communion is a ritual of the Catholic faith that commemorates the breaking of bread at Jesus Christ?s last supper.

Matthew Moran had trouble swallowing foods of certain textures, including the Communion wafer. The youngster had been taking Communion in a unique manner. With his father looking on, he would place the wafer in his mouth for a moment and then his father would take it out of his mouth and consume it himself.

Nick Moran, the child?s father, told the Arizona Republic newspaper that if he didn?t do this Matthew would spit the wafer out of his mouth".
Courtesy Spectrum Publications


Read more: http://www.autismsupportnetwork.com/new ... z3JSXUJlq9



PlainsAspie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Jul 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 518
Location: USA

18 Nov 2014, 5:00 pm

Even sticking it in his mouth is probably uncomfortable. In that way, it appears he showed more devotion to God than anyone in the sanctuary, including the priest.

I can't see Jesus denying him communion.

"But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." Luke 18:16

From the Vatican, I'd say silence is approval.