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Fruglepug
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23 Nov 2014, 8:33 pm

Being an Aspie who considers neurodiversity BS, I wish someone would speak out for us. Let's face it: Being autistic is not like being gay, socialist or any other minority. We can't expect the world to change in our favour; we have to adapt ourselves. For every successful autistic, there are a million who suffers. Rejecting the "medical model" equals denying them the treatment that could have made them able to succeed.

Anyone agrees?



PlainsAspie
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23 Nov 2014, 9:27 pm

I think autism is a disability and it is also inseparable part of a person.

In terms of expecting the world to change, it depend on in what sense you mean that. I do expect that autistics be allowed in mainstream society. I don't think we should expect the entire world to bend over backwards in ways like speaking softly everywhere for the sake of sensory problems.

I take psych meds and I'm not against all forms of ABA (no aversives, don't coerce into stopping non-harmful stims). My reasoning is that reducing anxiety and attention deficits don't change who I am as a person, rewiring my brain to make me non-autistic would.

If we took the money currently being spent on on research into pipe-dream cures and spent it on services, I think that would benefit people all over the spectrum.



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24 Nov 2014, 12:08 am

I don't know why we should have be given no quarter as far as others accepting and thus accommodating us when it is ok for these other groups to get that acceptance. Homosexuality was considered a disorder in the DSM. Homosexuals were considered unfit to teach because they would propagandize children. You could be arrested for having sex with a person of the same gender. Psychiatry believed homosexuals can never be happy or have a long term relationship.
. I was around when this program aired and believe me there no way I or anybody who was not delusional would expect to see homosexual sex legal, never mind marriage. Some of my attitudes back then would be considered pre historic today. You may be right in that Autistics may never be accepted. I don't know, I can't foretell the future and neither can you. What I do know I have seen so many things that I was absolutely positive would never happen, but they did. That is why I won't give up.

I don't see treatments and acceptance that we are different and not diseased necessarily as incompatible. For one thing better understanding means better treatments. The argument has been made that if we are just different not diseased we won't get accommodations. That makes logical sense I suppose but IRL it don't work that way. Groups that are not disabled or diseased by definition and individuals in said groups who are fully functional in get accommodations and benefits. Veterans and Seniors are two such groups. Many members of these groups are fully capable of functioning in society but get benefits including preferences because society deemed these groups have in have been put at a disadvantage by society. We have been put at a disadvantage so why do we deserve nothing?


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Jono
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24 Nov 2014, 7:25 am

Fruglepug wrote:
Being an Aspie who considers neurodiversity BS, I wish someone would speak out for us. Let's face it: Being autistic is not like being gay, socialist or any other minority. We can't expect the world to change in our favour; we have to adapt ourselves. For every successful autistic, there are a million who suffers. Rejecting the "medical model" equals denying them the treatment that could have made them able to succeed.

Anyone agrees?


Society already makes accommodations for others. For example, the existence of disabled parking bays are an accommodation for people in wheelchairs, so why can't they make similar accommodations for us? It's certainly not any less reasonable. Neurodiversity doesn't deny disability, it only emphasises the social model disability over the medical model.



Fruglepug
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24 Nov 2014, 9:23 am

If so - how do you think society should acommodate people with autism?



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24 Nov 2014, 9:27 am

So ... if you don't believe in Neurodiversity, then how do you account for the obvious diversity in human neuropathy?


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24 Nov 2014, 10:47 am

Neurodiversity simply means differences in neurology exist. What you are really talking about is the neurodiversity movement, which says to accept neurological differences.

What the neurodiversity movement advocates for is the social model of disability. Think of how different animals are adapted to different environments. A fish can get oxygen and move effectively if it is in the water. However, on land, it can't breathe and can only flop around.

Of course people do have to adapt. However, disabled people need to be allowed access to accommodations in order to adapt. To say that an autistic needs to live like an NT in order to adapt is like saying a person who can't walk needs to get out of their wheelchair in order to adapt.

I think a lot of autistics having problems is due to not being allowed accommodations. One example of allowing accommodations is allowing autistics to use noise-canceling headphones.

Also, just because a disability is not accommodated now doesn't mean it won't be accommodated later. A lot of disabilities that used to call for institutionalization are now being accommodated.



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24 Nov 2014, 11:05 am

Fnord wrote:
So ... if you don't believe in Neurodiversity, then how do you account for the obvious diversity in human neuropathy?


I don't question neurodiversity in itself - human development is a vulnerable and complicated process, and accidents happen. What I do question is the staunch view that the world has to acommodate people with ASD, rather than people with ASD adapting to the rest of the world. The first step in solving a problem is admitting that it exists - and some autism activists have a long way to go.



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24 Nov 2014, 4:16 pm

I don't want the world to change to accommodate me in the absence of any attempt on my part to adapt.

I'd just like it to meet me halfway.

I'd like to be able to wear a set of noise-cancelling headphones to an assembly at my kids' school, or come in with my brood at the last minute and sit down on the floor in back, without being automatically tagged as a freak that must be watched.

I'd like to not be followed by security as I make my way through WalMart muttering to myself about what I need to do next in order to successfully complete the activity known as "shopping at WalMart."

I'd like to not be labelled a crackhead because I rub the end of my nose while listening/thinking...

...and I'd like to not be thankful that they thought "crackhead" before they thought "ret*d."

I'd like to be able to say, "I'm a high-functioning autistic, and I just got more than a little overwhelmed back there. I'll be OK in ten or fifteen minutes. Thanks for asking" as I'm leaning against my car smoking a cigarette with silent tears running down my face. Instead of having to jump in my car and race home, where I can cry without having the police get involved (and feel bad, once again, about the fact that my ret*d ass is still not dead yet).

I don't want a free SSDI check and a total pass.

I just want "autism" to not mean "freak who absolutely cannot cope with anything ever and is going to be the next Adam Lanza."


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24 Nov 2014, 5:13 pm

The concept of neurodiversity is really seeing non allistic people from a newer model that does not have the ability to justify hatred. I think that the medical model of disability has been abused over the last century and affected policies that I shall not go into because it is too easy to waffle on about and go off topic but. You are right that people in wheelchairs have accommodations for them especially if some other person has a similar need as well. For example wheelchair accessibility is also pushchair accessibility and this would also alow mothers to access places when they have small children in a pushchair which is about the same width as a wheelchair. Autism is different when only certain people can really spot it they are rare as rocking horse s**t unless you can see my aura (perhaps a bit dubious). Even when I am overloaded and I get the sweats there is often no time to sensory regulate until a bit later and nobody notices this or even cares but I am still expected to show compassion to others who are perceived to be worse off than me but thats according to a medical model. A model that have been used to justify acts of neurobigotry/aspiphobia such as subjecting us to Jim Crow like regulations by allistics and evenjn being blamed for the aspiphobia which is either racism, anti Semitism or hypocrisy. Often with autistic issues the person usually has to identify his or her access needs by him or herself.

I do not like the being at the able end of the developmental disability spectrum is used to justify the dehumanisation of AS people or the fact that AS people in the UK have to pay for services we are not elegible for which is a bit like a total rip off but if we do not pay the council tax we would be penalised with bailiffs etc so in this case being a total mug. This is an example of the civil responsibility and we all have civil responsibilities but being non allistic means our civil rights are violated. When you are thought to have been non allistic you have your neuroprivilege stripped so one in effect becomes a tourist in one's own country and allistic society becomes like an alien occupation force. So the autism wing of the neurodiversity definitely makes a point and it can be no wonder that some people can integrate the phiolsophy of Marcus Garvey to Asperger syndrome and can be empowering as a tool for the finding out one's access needs by imagining what Aspergia is like not a real attempt at separation because I'm not saying that at all what I am saying is the meeting us half way and not trying to blame us for the Jim Crow like behaviour that allistics desplay it's obvious they got that behaviour from racists and think that they would be still thought to be tree hugging hippies after they trivialise aspiphobia and non allistic issues and also the harassment or tesing of people because their difficulties are not seen which is no becoming such an old excuse now its unbelievable how a society can be so arrogant. There are too many double standards in society and what is early intervention? Is it like ABA or anything like that because some of these are in a way like the development of a learning style rather than trying to pass off as allistic which is like a used car salesman trying to pass off an old banger for a decent car.

Until the philsophy of one neuroconfiguration superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited. I would like to live in a society that does not treat AS people as second class citizens but I think that be too much like an episode of Star Trek or another Sci Fi programme.

When I go shopping I use my mp3 and play some nice music so it does not affect me because I am cancelling one source of sensory nput with a more pleasant one ie listening to Pink Floyd can make a shopping trip a bit more bearable. At least they have these self checkout machines in Sainsbury's and Tesco.:idea:



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24 Nov 2014, 7:27 pm

Fruglepug wrote:
If so - how do you think society should acommodate people with autism?


There are plenty of ways to do it and it's quite feasible. I was thinking, for example, in a work environment where you aren't fired because other people "don't get on well with you", or having a lockable office where you can calm down so as not to have meltdowns.



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24 Nov 2014, 7:44 pm

Well actually it is like a minority since the majority of people do not have autism, though it is more of a disorder/disability. Society accommodates other disorders and disabilities so why not autism? I do not think rejecting the medical model equals being denied treatment that would have been able to to make them succeed, the medical model fails in a lot of ways...especially when it comes to mental disorders/neurological conditions. And succeed at what exactly? There are various ways to define that and also one can fail at some things and succeed at others.

And I have plenty of experience dealing with mainstream treatment...though not much for autism as there isn't a cure or specific treatment for it especially if you're an adult at least not in my area, just don't see any treatment that would make me more neurotypical and even if there was its not like it would make me successful in the conventional sense...I would still be a college drop out, with no job history who has been on SSI and might still need it as I'd also have depression, anxiety and PTSD still.

So no cannot say I agree with your post at all.


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24 Nov 2014, 7:55 pm

Fruglepug wrote:
Fnord wrote:
So ... if you don't believe in Neurodiversity, then how do you account for the obvious diversity in human neuropathy?


I don't question neurodiversity in itself - human development is a vulnerable and complicated process, and accidents happen. What I do question is the staunch view that the world has to acommodate people with ASD, rather than people with ASD adapting to the rest of the world. The first step in solving a problem is admitting that it exists - and some autism activists have a long way to go.


Society changes and adapts to people all the time, or at least has the potential to...why shouldn't the world accommodate people with ASD. And in which way should we adapt, just stop being autistic? Well as far as I can tell that is impossible.If society wants people like us to make an effort to be more of a part of it, why should we if its not willing to meet us half way and expects us to do all the adapting. Honestly though I am fairly disgusted with mainstream society/culture as a whole, not sure accommodations for the autism would even make up for that in my mind.


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24 Nov 2014, 8:15 pm

Fruglepug wrote:
I don't question neurodiversity in itself - human development is a vulnerable and complicated process, and accidents happen. What I do question is the staunch view that the world has to acommodate people with ASD, rather than people with ASD adapting to the rest of the world. The first step in solving a problem is admitting that it exists - and some autism activists have a long way to go.

Yes we have to adapt. I don't believe for a second anybody who knows anything about our lives is seriously suggesting we don't. It's about equal access, just like for any disability. It doesn't take anything away from the majority that there are parking spaces for disabled or elevators with braille buttons. Do you equally believe that paraplegic people should be confined to their homes and society should not accommodate them with parking spaces, elevators in addition to stairs in public places and so forth? What about the blind, no guide dogs, no braille, no text-to-speech? The situations are completely analogous.



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25 Nov 2014, 6:06 am

Fruglepug wrote:
If so - how do you think society should acommodate people with autism?


Change the way people are hired judged when they do get a position. If you can do the job that should take precedents over how well you can network. Things like open offices put us at a disadvantage. By law women get time off for when they give birth. It is felt that that is a natural part of who they are so if they were allowed to be fired for needing time off it would put them at a unfair disadvantage. Autistics are fired because when they get overwhelmed by people, florescent lights etc or just not being a "team player" or they stim. That puts us at a disadvantage because we are bring fired for being who we are naturally.


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25 Nov 2014, 8:07 am

I completely agree autism is not a race,ethnicity,religion or sexual orientation?


but respect for people with disabilities and neurological differences is also a valid aspect of diversity.
race,religion,ethnicity and sexual orientation are also 4 different things as well but are all valid aspects of diversity


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