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edgewaters
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11 May 2012, 7:49 pm

Aghogday ... if you don't mind me asking (and its fine if you'd rather keep this private) ... when and where did you grow up?



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11 May 2012, 7:57 pm

Janissy wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
@aghogday
you present very well that autistics are rational thinkers just by the way you post
for instance your arguements are based on evidence and facts typicaly coming from wikipedia.when people disagree with you present a link that suports your claim and refutes the others claim.your posts are long and contain many facts that you use to present your arguement.you dont show much emotion when discussing things even when others are rude.neurotypicals on the other put more emphasis on emotion,neurotypical respect self confidence and will believe who ever sounds like they know what there talking about.who ever has the most self confidence when they speak is who neurotypicals will believe regardless of what evidence is presented.talk loud and have much confidence and neurotypicals will believe anything you say.
you saying that autistics are not more rational then neurotypical is like the" pot not calling the kettle black" to use an old expression.



Ahogday does have a calm and rational posting style. However, autism is not a requirement for being able to present arguments this way. In fact, being able to present arguments this way is a requirement of all who want to succeed in academia and research. If you go to websites frequented by those people, you'll see this posting style a lot. In addition to WP, I go to websites about the paleo lifestyle, which apparently attracts many people in biochemistry and medical research and so I see this posting style a lot.

There are people with autism in research and academia. Ahogday may be one of them. (Hopefully this speculation is not annoying ahogday. I'll delete if it is.) But, as with many things, most of the people involved are not autistic.


No problem; I consider that a compliment. The last time I was involved in research was close to thirty years ago, as a research associate in archaelogy. The closest I got to writing research was labeling bags of charcoal and bone fragments that indicated subsistence activity at dig sites :)

There are few on this website, diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder, that actually have identified that they are involved in research regarding autism. And some that have provided their actual research.

One of the reasons I see value in Autism Speaks effort, is that there is no doubt in my mind that there are some with autistic traits, given the opportunities with those funding dollars, to participate in that research. Systemization, is a general area of cognitive strength, beneficial to those involved in research science. Often, when I come across research, I feel a kindred spirit.



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12 May 2012, 7:30 am

Janissy wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
@aghogday
you present very well that autistics are rational thinkers just by the way you post
for instance your arguements are based on evidence and facts typicaly coming from wikipedia.when people disagree with you present a link that suports your claim and refutes the others claim.your posts are long and contain many facts that you use to present your arguement.you dont show much emotion when discussing things even when others are rude.neurotypicals on the other put more emphasis on emotion,neurotypical respect self confidence and will believe who ever sounds like they know what there talking about.who ever has the most self confidence when they speak is who neurotypicals will believe regardless of what evidence is presented.talk loud and have much confidence and neurotypicals will believe anything you say.
you saying that autistics are not more rational then neurotypical is like the" pot not calling the kettle black" to use an old expression.



Ahogday does have a calm and rational posting style. However, autism is not a requirement for being able to present arguments this way. In fact, being able to present arguments this way is a requirement of all who want to succeed in academia and research. If you go to websites frequented by those people, you'll see this posting style a lot. In addition to WP, I go to websites about the paleo lifestyle, which apparently attracts many people in biochemistry and medical research and so I see this posting style a lot.

There are people with autism in research and academia. Ahogday may be one of them. (Hopefully this speculation is not annoying ahogday. I'll delete if it is.) But, as with many things, most of the people involved are not autistic.
1.i never said autism was a requirement to reasonable thinking,your right nany neuroypicals are very reasonable.however even very reasonable neorotypicals put the emphasis more on how one says something as to what someone says.you can convince a lot (not all) n.t's of many false informatiom if you say it with a lot of self confidence.
2.aghogday was acting like it was silly to think thast autistics were rational thinkers and i was just addresing that viewpoint.i was not saying only autistics can think rationaly


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aghogday
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12 May 2012, 2:06 pm

edgewaters wrote:
Aghogday ... if you don't mind me asking (and its fine if you'd rather keep this private) ... when and where did you grow up?


The Deep South in the 60's.



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12 May 2012, 2:08 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
Janissy wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
@aghogday
you present very well that autistics are rational thinkers just by the way you post
for instance your arguements are based on evidence and facts typicaly coming from wikipedia.when people disagree with you present a link that suports your claim and refutes the others claim.your posts are long and contain many facts that you use to present your arguement.you dont show much emotion when discussing things even when others are rude.neurotypicals on the other put more emphasis on emotion,neurotypical respect self confidence and will believe who ever sounds like they know what there talking about.who ever has the most self confidence when they speak is who neurotypicals will believe regardless of what evidence is presented.talk loud and have much confidence and neurotypicals will believe anything you say.
you saying that autistics are not more rational then neurotypical is like the" pot not calling the kettle black" to use an old expression.



Ahogday does have a calm and rational posting style. However, autism is not a requirement for being able to present arguments this way. In fact, being able to present arguments this way is a requirement of all who want to succeed in academia and research. If you go to websites frequented by those people, you'll see this posting style a lot. In addition to WP, I go to websites about the paleo lifestyle, which apparently attracts many people in biochemistry and medical research and so I see this posting style a lot.

There are people with autism in research and academia. Ahogday may be one of them. (Hopefully this speculation is not annoying ahogday. I'll delete if it is.) But, as with many things, most of the people involved are not autistic.
1.i never said autism was a requirement to reasonable thinking,your right nany neuroypicals are very reasonable.however even very reasonable neorotypicals put the emphasis more on how one says something as to what someone says.you can convince a lot (not all) n.t's of many false informatiom if you say it with a lot of self confidence.
2.aghogday was acting like it was silly to think thast autistics were rational thinkers and i was just addresing that viewpoint.i was not saying only autistics can think rationaly


I think it was more implied that having autism does not make someone a rational thinker....not that people with autism can't be rational thinkers.


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12 May 2012, 2:49 pm

Neurotypicals are at a disadvantage because social constraints will prevent them from considering logic objectively.



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12 May 2012, 2:50 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Neurotypicals are at a disadvantage because social constraints will prevent them from considering logic objectively.


again with the blanket generalizations.


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12 May 2012, 3:47 pm

A neurotypical will ask : If the Moon landings are not a hoax how come WE are still not going to the Moon.



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12 May 2012, 3:59 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
A neurotypical will ask : If the Moon landings are not a hoax how come WE are still not going to the Moon.


So are you speaking for all neurotypicals? unless you are one I don't see how you could possibly speak for neurotypicals.


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12 May 2012, 4:48 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
1.i never said autism was a requirement to reasonable thinking,your right nany neuroypicals are very reasonable.however even very reasonable neorotypicals put the emphasis more on how one says something as to what someone says.you can convince a lot (not all) n.t's of many false informatiom if you say it with a lot of self confidence.
2.aghogday was acting like it was silly to think thast autistics were rational thinkers and i was just addresing that viewpoint.i was not saying only autistics can think rationaly


Research referenced earlier wrote:

Quote:
Instead of being more rational or more sensitive to the logical structure of the problems, autistic participants were less able to integrate contextual information into their representation of the tasks, or, potentially, less able to combine information from different sources. Autistic children can process complex nonverbal information, and they are also able to reason with
relations, as suggested by their performance on the Raven test (e.g., Dawson et al., 2007), and pictorial tests of analogical reasoning (Morsanyi & Holyoak, in press). Nevertheless, in the case of the present tasks autistic children showed less contextualization than the control
group. Moreover, when contextualization did occur it required more effort than in the control group. Taken together these data suggest a delay in the development of the ability to
contextualize complex verbal material in the autistic group (see also Lopez & Leekham, 2003).


It's not my opinion that autistic individuals are not more rational in general than the rest of the population, it was information provided by research, as indicated above. There are some cases provided by available research where autistic individuals excel in reasoned thinking such as raven's matrices testing; and evidence provided in research per card games where the potential for losing and winning influence non-aspergers individual's more than asperger's individuals in making decisions in these card games.

There are other cases where some individuals diagnosed with autism and/or aspergers have difficulties providing logical decisions in social communication as well as in decisions that impact everyday life functioning. And, there are some identified that are diagnosed that work in research fields which require reasoned thinking in using the scientific method to determine valid results in studies. Some of these individuals excel in these areas of research that require rational thinking in the decision making process.

In addition, there are other studies that provide correlations of schizotypal thinking (magical thinking) among those diagnosed with Aspergers.

This is the statement that you made after most of this evidence was presented:

Quote:
you must agree that most of the time autistics are generaly more rational in there way of thinking


I didn't make the suggestion that it was silly that autistic individuals thought rationally. However, the evidence as it exists provided by science gives them no overall advantage in rational thinking over those that are not autistic; Aspergers or no Aspergers.

Some autistic individuals express above average levels of rationality, and some express lower than average levels of rationality in their decisions in life. But, for those that are diagnosed with an actual disorder, they are diagnosed due to impairments in social/communication and RRB's that on average, in research, are evidenced as impairing rational decisions in real life, moreso than the general population studied.

If I were to make a decision on this based just on the individuals with Aspergers that I came to know in real life, before I found this internet site, on a personal level from anecdoctal experience I might have come to the personal conclusion that individuals with Aspergers are more rational than others, however after pursuing the issue in detail, per the larger population of individuals diagnosed with Aspergers, I find that the research indicates difficulties in rational decisions in everyday life functioning, for that group of individuals, with that specific diagnosis as well.

If I were to have made a decision based on the individuals with more severe cases of autism, that I actually came across that were not able to make decisions to move from room to room in a building without someone helping them and directing them, and reinforcing their behavior through positive reinforcement, the only rational personal conclusion would be that they are severely incapacitated in making decisions in everyday life.

Research has provided information that some of these autistic individuals with similar difficulties in everyday life functioning do very well on tests of reasoning that involve non-verbal measures of reasoning, so my observational analysis is tempered by that information. However, this information doesn't change the fact that some of these same individuals can't make a decision on moving from room to room without positive reinforcement. Those are deficiencies in contextual decisions of logic that can be profoundly disabling. And, part of the reason that 80% of all individuals with autism do not gain independence in life, and 90% don't maintain full time employment. It's not likely we are hearing many of those personal opinions, generated by those individuals on this website.

Some others do gain independence, and some do make above average rational decisions in life in the areas of life they excel in, but they are the scientifically measured minority, not the majority.

This website is not indicative of the majority of individuals diagnosed with ASD's. It is the tiny minority of individuals with autism spectrum disorders that actually express verbal communication in writing on websites.

Most of the individuals that post here, are not professionally diagnosed, nor is that a requirement to post here. However the statement "ohh how I love how logic is a disability", does not do justice for those that struggle for basic subsistence and/or independence their entire life.

I was luckier than most in that respect, but it is clear, even on this website for those that function well enough to display good writing skills, that milder cases of autism spectrum disorders are disabling for many of those individuals as well. It's good to hear the success of the minority that are not too disabled to function well in life, but they are neither representative of the studied and measured full picture of aspergers, or the full picture of other autism spectrum disorders.

The CDC and the government captures most of that other aspect of the reality of ASD's; the 1 in 88, in classes for the developmentally disabled of which about a third are measured with intellectual disability, a third with border line intellectual disability, and a third with normal to above average measured levels of intelligence.

Per the research provided earlier in the thread, even those measured with above average intelligence and good language abilities are still studied as having similar limits in everyday life functioning, as compared to those labeled as more profoundly impacted by the symptoms of autism.

There is a huge measured population of individuals on the broader autism phenotype (BAP), with autistic traits, that excel in most every area of life; the systemizers, the introverted. They are labeled in many different ways by others in society, and per their own preferences, including some that likely identify with the term autistic, aspie, or even BAP.

However, they are not autistic per the disabling five disorders identified in psychiatry; they have strengths in certain areas of intelligence that allow them advantages in the niches they find in life.

Some of these individuals are commonly understood to be less emotional and more rational, however they are not professionally measured as disabled in everyday life functioning. That makes a big difference. If those are the individuals whom the individual that made that statement about logical abilities is referring to, it is a different ball park from the overall picture of individuals actually diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorders. A distinction of that difference, is reasonable, if that is the case.

When the DSM5 criteria go into effect, the organization recognizes that the sub-clinical term Aspergers will be useful for those individuals that may not experience milder traits of autism as disabling in everyday life functioning. That provides an opportunity for those that have milder traits, to identify with a term, that is no longer considered a disorder or a disability in areas where the DSM5 is the guideline for diagnosis; however the traits are not entirely different than those that are already identified as introverts, systemizers, the broader autism phenotype, etc.

But, some that don't consider themselves disabled in life, already identify with the term Aspergers, so it is good that the term will still likely be commonly used, for them to continue to identify with. And maybe at that point in time, there will be less confusion about the fact that the disorder Autism Spectrum Disorder, is an inherently disabling disorder that limits brain function, per the areas of social communication and RRB's.

It is also a good potential change for those individuals that are diagnosed with Aspergers now, that will be moving into the new DSM5 ASD diagnosis, that are profoundly disabled with that disorder in life, whom currently receive little acknowledgement from the general public or the US government of how disabling the disorder can actually be for those individuals diagnosed.

In other countries Aspergers is identified by the government and the public as an actual disability in everyday life functioning, and those individuals are already provided the support they need for subsistence in life.

This website is an international one, so the perceptions of the disorders are colored by differences in culture, in how people in general with disabilities, are perceived and afforded accommodations in life.

It can be tougher in the US, for some, where the government safety net is not nearly as large, as it is in some other cultures/countries, and where there is little understanding among the general public or organizational efforts for awareness of what Aspergers is, because most of the focus has been directed at Autism Disorder, rather than the other 4 ASD's.

It is becoming tougher in the US for College graduates without diagnosed disorders, to gain employment in life, as 12% of recent graduates are measured as unemployed, and close to 50 percent of graduates aged 20 to 24, have not found full time employment per research from 2006 to 2010.

The propects in the US, for employment are currently not expanded, for this age demographic, they are shrinking. The economy is not keep up with the demand of the population for jobs. And, college graduates are measured as more successful than those without a college education in gaining and maintaining employment, among young adults. This issue of overall job opportunities in life for young adults, is part of the synergy that makes life very challenging for those with inherent disabilities. Particularly young adults and aging adults.

Much of the picture of this issue, is colored differently in other countries, beyond US borders. Some conditions much worse and some conditions significantly better for individuals diagnosed with ASD's, depending on nation and culture.

All these factors can play a part in how one perceives this issue and most every issue discussed on an international website; part of the reason I like to use third party evidence, when possible, to provide objective answers rather than ones based just on my personal limited experiences.



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12 May 2012, 4:49 pm

Do I have to be a neurotypical to know how they think?



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12 May 2012, 4:56 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Do I have to be a neurotypical to know how they think?


So you claim to know how they all think? Then I suppose you're ok with it when neurotypicals assume they know how we all think and make blanket generalizations about us. I just don't understand what you're trying to prove by constantly spewing generalizations about neurotypicals in an attempt to prove the superiority of autistic people.


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12 May 2012, 5:01 pm

aghogday wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
1.i never said autism was a requirement to reasonable thinking,your right nany neuroypicals are very reasonable.however even very reasonable neorotypicals put the emphasis more on how one says something as to what someone says.you can convince a lot (not all) n.t's of many false informatiom if you say it with a lot of self confidence.
2.aghogday was acting like it was silly to think thast autistics were rational thinkers and i was just addresing that viewpoint.i was not saying only autistics can think rationaly


Research referenced earlier wrote:

Quote:
Instead of being more rational or more sensitive to the logical structure of the problems, autistic participants were less able to integrate contextual information into their representation of the tasks, or, potentially, less able to combine information from different sources. Autistic children can process complex nonverbal information, and they are also able to reason with
relations, as suggested by their performance on the Raven test (e.g., Dawson et al., 2007), and pictorial tests of analogical reasoning (Morsanyi & Holyoak, in press). Nevertheless, in the case of the present tasks autistic children showed less contextualization than the control
group. Moreover, when contextualization did occur it required more effort than in the control group. Taken together these data suggest a delay in the development of the ability to
contextualize complex verbal material in the autistic group (see also Lopez & Leekham, 2003).


It's not my opinion that autistic individuals are not more rational in general than the rest of the population, it was information provided by research, as indicated above. There are some cases provided by available research where autistic individuals excel in reasoned thinking such as raven's matrices testing; and evidence provided in research per card games where the potential for losing and winning influence non-aspergers individual's more than asperger's individuals in making decisions in these card games.

There are other cases where some individuals diagnosed with autism and/or aspergers have difficulties providing logical decisions in social communication as well as in decisions that impact everyday life functioning. And, there are some identified that are diagnosed that work in research fields which require reasoned thinking in using the scientific method to determine valid results in studies. Some of these individuals excel in these areas of research that require rational thinking in the decision making process.

In addition, there are other studies that provide correlations of schizotypal thinking (magical thinking) among those diagnosed with Aspergers.

This is the statement that you made after most of this evidence was presented:

Quote:
you must agree that most of the time autistics are generaly more rational in there way of thinking


I didn't make the suggestion that it was silly that autistic individuals thought rationally. However, the evidence as it exists provided by science gives them no overall advantage in rational thinking over those that are not autistic; Aspergers or no Aspergers.

Some autistic individuals express above average levels of rationality, and some express lower than average levels of rationality in their decisions in life. But, for those that are diagnosed with an actual disorder, they are diagnosed due to impairments in social/communication and RRB's that on average, in research, are evidenced as impairing rational decisions in real life, moreso than the general population studied.

If I were to make a decision on this based just on the individuals with Aspergers that I came to know in real life, before I found this internet site, on a personal level from anecdoctal experience I might have come to the personal conclusion that individuals with Aspergers are more rational than others, however after pursuing the issue in detail, per the larger population of individuals diagnosed with Aspergers, I find that the research indicates difficulties in rational decisions in everyday life functioning, for that group of individuals, with that specific diagnosis as well.

If I were to have made a decision based on the individuals with more severe cases of autism, that I actually came across that were not able to make decisions to move from room to room in a building without someone helping them and directing them, and reinforcing their behavior through positive reinforcement, the only rational personal conclusion would be that they are severely incapacitated in making decisions in everyday life.

Research has provided information that some of these autistic individuals with similar difficulties in everyday life functioning do very well on tests of reasoning that involve non-verbal measures of reasoning, so my observational analysis is tempered by that information. However, this information doesn't change the fact that some of these same individuals can't make a decision on moving from room to room without positive reinforcement. Those are deficiencies in contextual decisions of logic that can be profoundly disabling. And, part of the reason that 80% of all individuals with autism do not gain independence in life, and 90% don't maintain full time employment. It's not likely we are hearing many of those personal opinions, generated by those individuals on this website.

Some others do gain independence, and some do make above average rational decisions in life in the areas of life they excel in, but they are the scientifically measured minority, not the majority.

This website is not indicative of the majority of individuals diagnosed with ASD's. It is the tiny minority of individuals with autism spectrum disorders that actually express verbal communication in writing on websites.

Most of the individuals that post here, are not professionally diagnosed, nor is that a requirement to post here. However the statement "ohh how I love how logic is a disability", does not do justice for those that struggle for basic subsistence and/or independence their entire life.

I was luckier than most in that respect, but it is clear, even on this website for those that function well enough to display good writing skills, that milder cases of autism spectrum disorders are disabling for many of those individuals as well. It's good to hear the success of the minority that are not too disabled to function well in life, but they are neither representative of the studied and measured full picture of aspergers, or the full picture of other autism spectrum disorders.

The CDC and the government captures most of that other aspect of the reality of ASD's; the 1 in 88, in classes for the developmentally disabled of which about a third are measured with intellectual disability, a third with border line intellectual disability, and a third with normal to above average measured levels of intelligence.

Per the research provided earlier in the thread, even those measured with above average intelligence and good language abilities are still studied as having similar limits in everyday life functioning, as compared to those labeled as more profoundly impacted by the symptoms of autism.

There is a huge measured population of individuals on the broader autism phenotype (BAP), with autistic traits, that excel in most every area of life; the systemizers, the introverted. They are labeled in many different ways by others in society, and per their own preferences, including some that likely identify with the term autistic, aspie, or even BAP.

However, they are not autistic per the disabling five disorders identified in psychiatry; they have strengths in certain areas of intelligence that allow them advantages in the niches they find in life.

Some of these individuals are commonly understood to be less emotional and more rational, however they are not professionally measured as disabled in everyday life functioning. That makes a big difference. If those are the individuals whom the individual that made that statement about logical abilities is referring to, it is a different ball park from the overall picture of individuals actually diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorders. A distinction of that difference, is reasonable, if that is the case.

When the DSM5 criteria go into effect, the organization recognizes that the sub-clinical term Aspergers will be useful for those individuals that may not experience milder traits of autism as disabling in everyday life functioning. That provides an opportunity for those that have milder traits, to identify with a term, that is no longer considered a disorder or a disability in areas where the DSM5 is the guideline for diagnosis; however the traits are not entirely different than those that are already identified as introverts, systemizers, the broader autism phenotype, etc.

But, some that don't consider themselves disabled in life, already identify with the term Aspergers, so it is good that the term will still likely be commonly used, for them to continue to identify with. And maybe at that point in time, there will be less confusion about the fact that the disorder Autism Spectrum Disorder, is an inherently disabling disorder that limits brain function, per the areas of social communication and RRB's.

It is also a good potential change for those individuals that are diagnosed with Aspergers now, that will be moving into the new DSM5 ASD diagnosis, that are profoundly disabled with that disorder in life, whom currently receive little acknowledgement from the general public or the US government of how disabling the disorder can actually be for those individuals diagnosed.

In other countries Aspergers is identified by the government and the public as an actual disability in everyday life functioning, and those individuals are already provided the support they need for subsistence in life.

This website is an international one, so the perceptions of the disorders are colored by differences in culture, in how people in general with disabilities, are perceived and afforded accommodations in life.

It can be tougher in the US, for some, where the government safety net is not nearly as large, as it is in some other cultures/countries, and where there is little understanding among the general public or organizational efforts for awareness of what Aspergers is, because most of the focus has been directed at Autism Disorder, rather than the other 4 ASD's.

It is becoming tougher in the US for College graduates without diagnosed disorders, to gain employment in life, as 12% of recent graduates are measured as unemployed, and close to 50 percent of graduates aged 20 to 24, have not found full time employment per research from 2006 to 2010.

The propects in the US, for employment are currently not expanded, for this age demographic, they are shrinking. The economy is not keep up with the demand of the population for jobs. And, college graduates are measured as more successful than those without a college education in gaining and maintaining employment, among young adults. This issue of overall job opportunities in life for young adults, is part of the synergy that makes life very challenging for those with inherent disabilities. Particularly young adults and aging adults.

Much of the picture of this issue, is colored differently in other countries, beyond US borders. Some conditions much worse and some conditions significantly better for individuals diagnosed with ASD's, depending on nation and culture.

All these factors can play a part in how one perceives this issue and most every issue discussed on an international website; part of the reason I like to use third party evidence, when possible, to provide objective answers rather than ones based just on my personal limited experiences.
your post in and of itself proves my point right


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12 May 2012, 7:24 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
A neurotypical will ask : If the Moon landings are not a hoax how come WE are still not going to the Moon.


http://www.wrongplanet.net/gsearch.html?cx=partner-pub-8703422890298959%3Aq5of6baj6hj&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=moon+hoax&siteurl=www.wrongplanet.net%2Fpostp4628218.html%234628218&ref=www.wrongplanet.net%2Fforum-posting.html

Per the link above there are quite a few people that identifiy themselves with Aspergers, that have argued the point that the Moon landings were a hoax, so if there are accurate self reports on this website per whom does or whom does not have Aspergers, that's not an example of a type of empirically based logical analysis specific to autistics or non-autistics. In fact, it is associated with schizotypal thinking which is correlated higher among individuals with Aspergers than the general population, per research.

There are entire threads here where individuals also talk about personifying objects in their environments, also associated with schizotypal thinking. The evidence here is anecdotal, but there is actual evidence per science that has measured this phenomenon correlated stronger among individuals with Aspergers than the general population.

There are a great many threads here with interests in psychic phenomenon. Interestingly, many "religious" individuals, in the general population don't believe in psychic phenomenon because of their religious beliefs, but religious ideas that are part of the cultural norm, are similiar to belief in psychic phenomenon considered part of schizotypical thinking. But, since mainstream religious ideas are part of the cultural norm they aren't identified in personality tests as schizotypal thinking

Beyond the actual research that shows that schizotypal thinking is correlated with Aspergers above those in the general population, there are threads here that provide self reported personality test results, that provide anecdotal evidence that the majority of individuals with Aspergers testing and reporting test results here, measure high on tests that measure schizotypal thinking.

Here is only one recent example. Not one person reported measuring lower than moderate on the test for schizotypal thinking; approximately 75% scored high to very high on the measures of schizotypal (magical) thinking.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf196978-0-45.html

Most human beings engage in some form of schizotypal thinking, but categorized within religious context, because that is a cultural norm in thinking, psychiatrists do not identify that as schizotypal thinking.

I've come across very few people here that won't have anything to do with schizotypal thinking, however there is a potential problem there as well, because without the ability to move into the area of schizotypal thinking to some degree, one can become close minded to phenomenon that actually exists that is not supported by empirical evidence. Again, a balance is healthy.

Without a balance of emotion or a little bit of magical thinking, one's horizons can become reduced; however some of this is beyond the control of individuals per inherent and environmental factors.

Per example, there is actual scientific evidence that some types of anamalous pre-cognition phenomenon exists, per what has historically commonly been understood as psychic phenomenon.

There are only a couple of individuals on this site, that I have found that have refused to have any part of that evidence, because it is associated with what they consider is magical thinking and assess themselves as very rational individuals; likely they would score extremely low on personality tests that measure schizotypal thinking.

Most people don't need any evidence, per most reports of people on this site, per threads that address these issues, to understand that there are things beyond current measures of science that exist.

Again, a balance of emotion and logic is healthy, there are negative aspects of refusing any type of information that is not perceived as completely empirical based as there is in refusing to accept information that is strongly empirically based.

Any human being that thinks they have control of their life events, is guilty of magical thinking to some degree, however it is a degree of magical thinking that provides the potential for human beings to find order and sanity in life. Without a certain degree of magical thinking life can be very hard for some human beings.

In fact, a healthy brain frames life around an illusion of what is expected per experience in life. The process, that in part, is behind the phenomenon of optical illusion. There are some individuals that cannot see this optical illusion that perceive reality close to what it actually is. Many individuals studied with schizophrenia, do not have the ability to perceive optical illusions.

Some individuals diagnosed with schizophrenia that have difficulties in life determining their realities, in part, are suggested, through this research, to potentialy have a problem of inherently providing an illusion of reality, through limits in brain function, that most human beings have the ability for.

This difficulty in brain function, is suggested to limit the ability to provide a roadmap, for one to find their way in the world.

Science now suggests that it is illusion that underlies much of what humans perceive as reality, and attempt to rationalize after the fact. In fact our conscious awareness of reality is measured per science as being slightly behind the actual experience of reality. The emotional processing centers of the brain are connected with this whole process.

Interestingly, some autistic individuals have been measured as having similar difficulties seeing optical illusions. I did a poll on it sometime ago, and about a third polled could not see the optical illusion.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp4269418.html&highlight=



androbot2084
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12 May 2012, 8:14 pm

When I wrote about the Moon landings I put the emphasis on WE. In other words if the Moon landings are not what WE are doing as a nation TODAY then it could be likely that a neurotypical would use that as a reason why not to believe in the Moon landings rather than some conspiracy theory that a schizophrenic would use as a reason why not to believe in the Moon landings. My point is that neurotypicals define their reality by an inherent group think which means something is true if others also believe that it is true.

My other point is that if neurotypicals are indeed equal to us and their mode of thinking is just as valid as ours then what is stopping us from becoming a neurotypical since that would give us a tremendous social advantage?



mmcool
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12 May 2012, 8:37 pm

its a hard pne to call because AS is techly a disability
but it should not really be a disability