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SilverProteus
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26 Feb 2008, 8:56 am

What exactly do you mean by "autistic thinking?" As in introvert or cognitive style?


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oscuria
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26 Feb 2008, 9:41 am

SilverProteus wrote:
What exactly do you mean by "autistic thinking?" As in introvert or cognitive style?


Me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid#Akhtar_phenomenological_profile

Reading that, it pretty much explained me. To answer your question, I don't know anything about what it meant, which is why I made the thread. I'm guessing schizoids may appear autistic if you take their way of thinking and compare it to ASD...? (Autistic thinking is found in the "Cognitive Style")



becca423b
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26 Feb 2008, 11:58 am

zendell wrote:
Schizoid PD and other personality disorders aren't real medical conditions. They are nothing more than labels that a bunch of people who think they are better than everyone else give to people with personalities they don't approve of. Just because someone doesn't like your personality doesn't give them any right to tell you that you have a personality disorder. The best way to deal with this is to reject psychiatry, refuse their labels, and not worry about it any more.


I would have to disagree. I work with a population of severely persistant mentally ill persons, some of whom have personality disorders. They are VERY real. We have people who are entirely incapable of caring for others and who only see people as things to manipulate in order to get what they want. They are deluded that the world is trying to persecute them, and have no problem threatening, harassing, assaulting, or otherwise hurting those around them. This obviously does not describe all personality disorders, however it does show that they are in fact quite real.



Mikomi
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26 Feb 2008, 12:12 pm

I am 99.99999999999999999% sure my mother has SPD.


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zendell
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26 Feb 2008, 12:20 pm

becca423b wrote:
zendell wrote:
Schizoid PD and other personality disorders aren't real medical conditions. They are nothing more than labels that a bunch of people who think they are better than everyone else give to people with personalities they don't approve of. Just because someone doesn't like your personality doesn't give them any right to tell you that you have a personality disorder. The best way to deal with this is to reject psychiatry, refuse their labels, and not worry about it any more.


I would have to disagree. I work with a population of severely persistant mentally ill persons, some of whom have personality disorders. They are VERY real. We have people who are entirely incapable of caring for others and who only see people as things to manipulate in order to get what they want. They are deluded that the world is trying to persecute them, and have no problem threatening, harassing, assaulting, or otherwise hurting those around them. This obviously does not describe all personality disorders, however it does show that they are in fact quite real.


Of course people have the symptoms of personality disorders. I would never doubt that some people are uncaring, manipulative, delusional, or mean to others. However, just because you don't like someone's personality or how they think or act doesn't mean they have a disease. It has never been proven that all these people act the way you described due to a real medical condition. They may have just been raised by bad parents, suffered serious trauma as a child, or just born different due to genetics.

Some people think that AS doesn't exist. They obviously know that people have the symptoms (impaired socialization and communication). They just don't see it as a disease but instead see it as a normal variation due to genetics and therefore don't think it needs a label. With AS, there have been numerous abnormalities found that can be tested. They could probably very accurately diagnose AS with multiple blood tests but they don't because it would be too expensive and mainly because there are political reasons that prevent it from happening.

I'll believe in personality disorders when I see evidence that there are real differences that can be tested.



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26 Feb 2008, 2:37 pm

"Disease" is a societal construct, just like all other categories. :roll:


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oscuria
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27 Feb 2008, 7:23 am

I think, zendell, that you are taking an extreme side to this argument. I personally believe that PD's are real, in a sense, and should be evaluated. There's a valid reason to their existence in manuals. I am cynical, mind you, but I am not so cynical (or is paranoid the proper word?) that I'll believe therapists take up the veil of superiority. After all, we must be cautious of those who are quick to diagnose. I wouldn't accept a one hour meeting with a Dr. who said I had "such and such" disorder. I'd question his/her credentials. That to me would be bad practice and not in any way what I might or appear to be condoning.

My problems with my being is the sudden avolition and anhedonia that I experience on occasions. What place in a society which requires people to do things does this have? Am I to live as a hermit/ascetic for the rest of my life? Although, I would enjoy that lifestyle, at least in my head.

I wouldn't mind living with such a title granted. I'd feel proud in being one of the 1% whom are recognized living with such a disorder. (wiki) :mrgreen:



SilverProteus
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27 Feb 2008, 9:42 am

oscuria wrote:
I wouldn't mind living with such a title granted. I'd feel proud in being one of the 1% whom are recognized living with such a disorder. (wiki) :mrgreen:


Only one percent? That's a very low number of dxed then! 8O


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oscuria
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27 Feb 2008, 9:53 am

SilverProteus wrote:
oscuria wrote:
I wouldn't mind living with such a title granted. I'd feel proud in being one of the 1% whom are recognized living with such a disorder. (wiki) :mrgreen:


Only one percent? That's a very low number of dxed then! 8O


Yes, but many remain undiagnosed from what I've read. Some are said to not care for a diagnosis, others comfortable being whomever they are. Those who seek "help" are ones who were urged, forced, or felt a need to seek a psych, again according to what I've read.



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27 Feb 2008, 11:28 am

From the article "Medicine, social control and disability rights" by Cal Montgomery, from Ragged Edge # 2 and 3, 2002:

He’s the guy saying there’s no such thing as mental illness, right?

And so people drag out their friends, their relatives, and their acquaintances — and their friends’ relatives’ acquaintances — to refute him.

The people among us who attempt suicide, the people who commit incomprehensible crimes, the people who hold bizarre beliefs — if the existence of these people doesn’t prove the reality of mental illness, then what possibly could?

But this isn’t so much a refutation of Szasz as a way to make his point: when we identify certain actions and beliefs with illness, when the criterion is incomprehensibility, we use the word illness in a different way than when we use it to talk about biology.


It's not about some kind of conspiracy to call people mentally ill for having certain traits, it's about a cultural belief that says that certain traits equal a mental illness, when in the same culture at different times those same traits might have been explained away in a different manner. Basically a medical way of viewing those traits rather than a number of other ways to view them. So simply saying the traits exist doesn't say the medical model is right, any more than, if you looked up criteria for demonic possession in some religions, the existence of the traits discussed in the criteria would prove that it's demonic possession. And, for that matter, seeing a long list of possible traits written down by a doctor as "results of yeast overgrowth" doesn't actually mean that just because the traits exist, then they're a product of "yeast overgrowth".


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27 Feb 2008, 12:23 pm

I really don't see the point in telling someone that their personality is disordered. What are they going to do about it? Can any drug ever change someone's personality? Counseling may help but what difference does an official diagnosis make? We are all individuals and different. Counseling should help us with our own problems instead of focusing on treating a disease.

I'm not against all mental illness. Catagorizing people helps with finding effective treatments, like drugs to treat OCD and ADHD. I have a specific problem with the personality disorders because I don't think it's right to judge someone's personality.

Quote:
# Schizoid: Pervasive pattern of detachment from social relationships and restriction of emotion in interpersonal settings. Characterized by the following major traits:

* Neither desiring nor enjoying close relationships; choosing solitary activities

* Little interest in sex

* Indifference to praise or criticism

* Emotional frigidity


I don't see any problem with someone who meets this description. Labeling someone with schizoid seems to do nothing other than add an unnecessary stigma. Should a doctor try to force such a person to enjoy close relationships, be around other people, have sex more often, and respond to praise or criticism differently? Should such a person be forced to take brain damaging psychiatric drugs or undergo a lobotomy to correct this "disorder"?



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27 Feb 2008, 1:46 pm

I wonder what percentage of INTPs and INTJs are diagnosed with SPD and AS.



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11 Mar 2009, 10:54 pm

metalab wrote:
From my research and my experience I believe that autism and schizophrenia are the exact same thing. Just that like, a schizophrenic I think is an autistic who due to some chain of events and interactions managed to develop a usable 'normal' front. Went for years basically emulating 'normal' until there underlying tendencies start poking back through and they remember, this is not really what they are and they have a break.

I'm actually quite envious of the autistics who became autistic young and managed to stay autistic. Because I personally in late life had a sort of break, which did feel exactly like remembering my childhood. It did align nearly exactly with schizophrenic description, but the thing about it was, it was just like remembering what I was like when I was child, which I have always been very odd and funky. So I don't say that underlying schizo tendencies were released, instead I say underlying autism surfaced. Like I said, they seem interchangeable to me. But people are much more understanding/sympathetic to autism. Probably because it's associated with children... not young adults who just freak out and proclaim everything is screwed up and make things 'diffucult'.

I notice that, I have a peculiar ability in word articulation, I have been able to speak very effectively since I was young, which is why I think I got absorbed into the 'normal' facade very easily, because I could speak and understand the normal-esque language and conversations very well. But my thought process and way I would get my brain to interact with normal conversations was very weird... I was emulating it, not speaking real feelings. No one understood me when I just spoke how I felt.


I know this is an old post, but this author made an interesting point regarding when he speaks, his brain was emulating. How can a person tell the difference b/t someone emulating, or speaking real feelings?



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12 Mar 2009, 3:49 am

zendell wrote:
I really don't see the point in telling someone that their personality is disordered. What are they going to do about it? Can any drug ever change someone's personality? Counseling may help but what difference does an official diagnosis make? We are all individuals and different.

Counseling should help us with our own problems instead of focusing on treating a disease.

I'm not against all mental illness. Catagorizing people helps with finding effective treatments, like drugs to treat OCD and ADHD. I have a specific problem with the personality disorders because I don't think it's right to judge someone's personality.

Labeling someone...seems to do nothing other than add an unnecessary stigma.


Have to agree with this.

Labeling doesn't help someone improve in a productive way.
If there was some kind of positive encouragement available to help someone get on with his/her life I'd be all in favour of it: but there isn't.

It's bizarre, if others label people couldn't they at least try to help or offer some useful, non-condescending advice?

Instead of singling people out and calling them "broken", why aren't communities as a whole being educated in a reasonable and balanced way about these things?

Lots of these these so called "disordered" folk are very capable people and many probably match the "symptoms" and haven't been identified as such because they're lucky: people have accepted them and they have got on with their own lives/occupations.

I don't honestly see how calling people "disordered", bar people being able to receive disability benefits, is socially helpful or productive. That word doesn't actually seem positive in my view or helpful in forming mutual understanding. The word "disordered" seems downright derogatory to me, when used to describe people's own personalities that they can't (and often don't want) to change.



EvoVari
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12 Mar 2009, 3:57 am

Schizophrenia and autism/AS are not the same.

I read a post at another AS site which stated that many Aspies are wrongly diagnosed with Borderline personality disorder initially.

Maybe that means the Aspies who don't like sex, people and are introverts have schizoid type traits and us sex enthusiasts, extroverts have Borderline type traits. lol

We seem to self annalyse too much and in our search for reassurance/acceptance. Whether your an Aspie or elsewhere on the Autism spectrum I think we tend to be the "Jack of all disorder traits", a little bit of this and a little bit of that.



Knipping-Spider
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12 Mar 2009, 9:05 am

Well well well, this little warm nudgelling covern sucked my eyeballs out to a degree,..it is my first submission, and I doubt I would find one ahr' more relevant to begin inter'twining strands in with my beak, establishing somewhat of a forum roost,... I've been diagnosed with both, just ahr' recently infact, perhaps the elderly monocled man were playing it safe with me?...