Aspie & Borderline Aspie - the Elephant in the Room

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tsukaima
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29 Feb 2012, 2:10 am

Posted on another thread, but I figured I should start a new thread for this.

I have been in a "platonic" relationship with this woman for nearly 10 years. Recently, we have both discovered and investigated Asperger's. She is almost certainly an Aspie, and most tests put me right at the borderline with some aspie and some NT traits both. I know the risks of self-diagnosis, but for purposes of this post let's consider that we are.

I have always felt she was my soul mate, but she is essentially closed off emotionally. We are each other's only and closest friends. We do almost everything together, and we fight as you would expect two people who potentially are Aspie would fight, but neither of us takes it personally. We get over it and stay close.

Early on, we're talking more than 6 years ago, we discussed relationships more. At the time, we hadn't spent nearly as much time together as we have now. She told me she didn't "do" relationships, because guys typically would confess their love for her constantly, and she just didn't get it. She felt she was leading them on and would break their heart if she dated them. She bases this on experience dating a couple of guys in high school who she broke up with repeatedly because she wasn't really interested in them, just in the idea of having a boyfriend. She felt that she "respected" me too much to do that to me. The conversation about relationships never really went any farther than that.

Thing is, she's 30 now and high school was a long time ago. She's basing her idea of relationships purely on that.

Recently it feels to me that something in the air in our friendship has changed. She's made comments about how we would never have met if I hadn't taken longer than normal to get through college. There have been a few comments about what she prefers in a relationship as well, though nothing direct. Mostly though it seems like she has suddenly been wanting to spend more time together.

I tend to do the typical Aspie shutdowns, which I've always called hermit mode. I will feel like things are getting too intense and before I say/do something stupid, I simply stay home and don't call/visit for a few days. At the longest a couple of months ago I went almost 3 weeks with only an occasional text. Since then, it seems like she has been wanting to spend time together a lot. She doesn't want to let me have my "hermit mode". If I try, she calls with some task that needs doing. She'll usually call three times and if I don't answer, she'll drive over and beat on my door.

The elephant in the room, of course, is an actual relationship. She has always gotten flustered when friends/family make comments. We worked together for a couple of years, and customers would ask us how long we had been married. Co-workers were amazed that we didn't date. I ended up being her boss as well, and when i was later fired (new manager wanted to clean house of everyone so found reasons to fire everybody in a management position), during the exit interview I was accused of having an inappropriate relationship with a subordinate. Never mind the fact we'd been friends long before the job started, the person who hired/promoted me knew of our friendship, and I never let that get in the way of job performance and didn't play favorites.

As I said, though, the actual subject of a relationship is one that's lain dormant between us for a number of years. I feel like at this point, she wants me to stay in her life. I want to stay in her life. But I need to know if she is willing to work on a real relationship and not just staying as we are. Honestly, I don't mind the emotional distance she has. It is who she is, and I understand that. I don't mind the oddities, the weird requirements. If I did, I wouldn't still be her closest friend after 10 years.

We need to discuss the issue, and get it out in the open. I know there are some roadblocks to a relationship. I know what some of them are, some of them I can control and some of them I can't. There are also probably roadblocks I don't know about. Without discussing it though, nothing will change. I am just terrified that if I bring up the subject, she's going to feel forced, and that the friendship we have will be ruined. I need to let her know that if we do try a relationship, and it doesn't work for her, that I will understand that and she won't lose her best friend. I need to let her know that I want to try that relationship on her terms but that I want to try. If she still says no after having a real discussion, that's okay. I feel like not saying anything, though, is less and less of an option... And of course, spending so much time together without my "hermit time" my emotions are getting stronger. If she doesn't want a relationship after all of that, I need to explain to her why I need that away time.

I don't know how to bring it up though. She is very practical and pragmatic. Discussions of feelings just don't come up often between us, and any way I can bring it up just feels awkward. Any awkward topics (related to relationships or not), and she tends to just shut down immediately and change topics. It's like she doesn't even hear what you say if it's a topic she doesn't want to talk about. I don't want to FORCE the discussion, because that would be a fight and I don't want that... but I need to figure out how to make the discussion happen, regardless of what the outcome is.

Any advice from "experienced" aspies is highly appreciated!



TB
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29 Feb 2012, 2:38 am

I am definately not an ''experienced'' aspie. All i can say is you obivously care a lot about her, imagine if some other guy comes along and takes her away from you. Everyday we get an opportunity to tell people what we think/feel, if you do not use that chance you are one step closer to having no more opportunities. Time is running out faster than we think.

There is no perfect time or right way to do it, you either do it or you don't. Wait too long and you might lose her.
Losing her because you are honest about your feelings is something you can look at with pride. The other option is devastating to confidence.



tsukaima
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29 Feb 2012, 2:45 am

TB wrote:
I am definately not an ''experienced'' aspie.


Inexperienced aspie's and NT's comments are appreciated as well :)

The main thing I'm looking at, though, is that the typical advice of "just go for it man, lay it all out there" doesn't work quite right with someone who shuts down on emotional topics.



kojot
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29 Feb 2012, 8:00 am

tsukaima wrote:
TB wrote:
I am definately not an ''experienced'' aspie.


Inexperienced aspie's and NT's comments are appreciated as well :)

The main thing I'm looking at, though, is that the typical advice of "just go for it man, lay it all out there" doesn't work quite right with someone who shuts down on emotional topics.


Maybe just tell her exactly what you've wrote here. If one of you shuts down, try to work it through, train your emotional intelligence and open, honest conversation.

I wont say it will be easy, 'cause it would be a lie, but form my perspective it is the best solution. I have some relationship experience with NT girls (9 yrs), but now I'm with an aspie girl (and finally happy), but I know now there are unique challenges. Sometimes it can be even harder than with NT's. So what we do is to learn to trust each other, communicate better and understand emotions.



goodwitchy
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29 Feb 2012, 10:14 am

I think I relate to her side of this - she doesn't want to possibly lose her best friend for a different type of relationship that she's unsure of or uncomfortable with...and you wrote "She felt that she "respected" me too much to do that to me." It sounds like she's uncomfortable with emotional closeness. Even though her past relationships were in high school, that doesn't mean that her view on relationships or her preference to be less emotionally attached has changed.


Perhaps put your conversation in the perspective of practicality (more financial security if you're together, the ease of living in the same dwelling, companionship, etc.)


Edit to add: the hermit mode doesn't work as well when you live in the same dwelling, so you may need to establish the need for space (your spot for thinking/decompressing).


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Autistic/BAP -123 aloof, 124 rigid and 108 pragmatic
Autism Spectrum quotient: 41, Empathy Quotient: 19


kojot
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29 Feb 2012, 2:46 pm

goodwitchy wrote:
I think I relate to her side of this - she doesn't want to possibly lose her best friend for a different type of relationship that she's unsure of or uncomfortable with...and you wrote "She felt that she "respected" me too much to do that to me." It sounds like she's uncomfortable with emotional closeness. Even though her past relationships were in high school, that doesn't mean that her view on relationships or her preference to be less emotionally attached has changed.


Perhaps put your conversation in the perspective of practicality (more financial security if you're together, the ease of living in the same dwelling, companionship, etc.)


Edit to add: the hermit mode doesn't work as well when you live in the same dwelling, so you may need to establish the need for space (your spot for thinking/decompressing).


That's a very insightful comment. This is exactly what I and gf were afraid in the beginning 'cause we were great friends before and we didn't wanna loose it. Relationships are hard on their own, but when people have problems with understanding their emotions it can be even worse. I know it from my own experience, I had to learn that I do have more emotions than I was aware of and what they all mean. It took me a while and I'm still learning, but it's possible and crucial.

About the hermit mode, I think I know what you mean. When I feel that bad I usually tell my gf to stay a least 1 m from me and don't touch me, don't make noise. And I talk to her and when I feel little better I let her hold my hand. It's a question of trust.
It may be the other way around, she probably have some day that she will need to go to hermit mode too, so It might help to talk about it. I don't know, it's hard to give an accurate advice with so little data.



tsukaima
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29 Feb 2012, 3:18 pm

kojot wrote:
Maybe just tell her exactly what you've wrote here. If one of you shuts down, try to work it through, train your emotional intelligence and open, honest conversation.


I communicate so much better in written form than in speech though, and she doesn't like to read personal letters!! In a previous relationship with a clearly NT type girl, if I had something to say that I couldn't quite put into words verbally, I would write her letters. We exchanged letters frequently. That won't work in this situation, because in this case, she really doesn't communicate that way... it has to be verbal and somehow I have to figure out how to not lose track of the topic or mix things up so much they become confusing. If we were talking about politics, walking the dogs, or any mundane every day task I have no problem... I'm a bit wordy even and I never shut up. She refers to me as her personal radio! But I clam up myself on these topics verbally as well... I don't know how to say things naturally that are awkward. That's a bit human nature, I guess, but my experience has shown I have more problem with it than the average person.

goodwitchy wrote:
I think I relate to her side of this - she doesn't want to possibly lose her best friend for a different type of relationship that she's unsure of or uncomfortable with...and you wrote "She felt that she "respected" me too much to do that to me." It sounds like she's uncomfortable with emotional closeness. Even though her past relationships were in high school, that doesn't mean that her view on relationships or her preference to be less emotionally attached has changed.

Perhaps put your conversation in the perspective of practicality (more financial security if you're together, the ease of living in the same dwelling, companionship, etc.)

Edit to add: the hermit mode doesn't work as well when you live in the same dwelling, so you may need to establish the need for space (your spot for thinking/decompressing).


I've been thinking about the practicality line myself.... she has a couple of health issues that have made it impossible to get insurance. I haven't wanted her to feel like I'm using that kind of thing as leverage to get what I want.... but overall, I spend a LOT of time at her place. It would make sense financially for me to help with the bills/rent, and save on my own expenses of having a $610 a month apartment. But again, my second-guessing, I haven't suggested any kind of roommate arrangement because I feel like it would be awkward.

I know she's not stupid, honestly.... I know she has to have some clue how I feel, but she acts like she has really NO CLUE how I feel. At times, she acts like she doesn't know how SHE feels. We both have tested around 140IQ and we both have college degrees. But on this, we're both clueless it seems.

The only way I've been able to show her that I love her is to be there for her and treat her right. And she shows me that she needs and appreciates me, and she is always there for me and supports me when I need it as well... Though emotional support is hard for her, I can tell that she tries. That's why I think we need to have an honest and open discussion... for all practical purposes, we already ARE in a relationship. There's no sex, but that's something that is a much bigger issue when you haven't even admitted the relationship exists.

I think she's afraid that if she admits there's a relationship, that I'll instantly get jealous, controlling, start doing public displays of affection, start being demanding of her time, start expecting her to fit into gender stereotypes better, and immediately get barefoot and pregnant.... all of that scares her so it's easier to just ... not be in a relationship. But I would hope she could understand by now that's not who I am either.

Maybe this thread is as much for me to work out my thoughts and feelings as much as it is for me to figure out how to discuss it with her... I dunno....



Kjas
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29 Feb 2012, 3:31 pm

tsukaima wrote:
Inexperienced aspie's and NT's comments are appreciated as well :)

The main thing I'm looking at, though, is that the typical advice of "just go for it man, lay it all out there" doesn't work quite right with someone who shuts down on emotional topics.


Shutdown on emotional topics is something I am familiar with, I have to work really damn hard not to do it.

I think perhaps you should just lay it out to her like you did us in a verbal way (practise if you have to or even write it out and read it). She probably shuts down because she needs to thoroughly process and she can't that if someone's being emotional with her and she can't identify and process her own emotions on the spot unprepared, plus she has to think everything through logically and practically too, hence the shut down.

Maybe you should preface your speech by asking her to just listen and that she can get back to you with her response after she has processed everything at a later date when she feels like it? If you give her the choice of when and how she chooses to respond, you're more likely to get a response. The important thing is that you don't demand a response then and there otherwise she will likely withdraw.

If that doesn't work, you could create a flowchart with yes / no answers and various options and give it to her (worked for one of my friends who has an AS partner). All she would have to do is fill out the chart at home when she feels like it and give it back to you.



Last edited by Kjas on 29 Feb 2012, 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

kojot
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29 Feb 2012, 3:45 pm

tsukaima wrote:
I communicate so much better in written form than in speech though, and she doesn't like to read personal letters!! In a previous relationship with a clearly NT type girl, if I had something to say that I couldn't quite put into words verbally, I would write her letters. We exchanged letters frequently. That won't work in this situation, because in this case, she really doesn't communicate that way... it has to be verbal and somehow I have to figure out how to not lose track of the topic or mix things up so much they become confusing. If we were talking about politics, walking the dogs, or any mundane every day task I have no problem... I'm a bit wordy even and I never shut up. She refers to me as her personal radio! But I clam up myself on these topics verbally as well... I don't know how to say things naturally that are awkward. That's a bit human nature, I guess, but my experience has shown I have more problem with it than the average person.

Hmm, have you considered reading it to her? Or at least using a mind map or bullet points or just notes (I do it sometimes it really helps me)

tsukaima wrote:
I've been thinking about the practicality line myself.... she has a couple of health issues that have made it impossible to get insurance. I haven't wanted her to feel like I'm using that kind of thing as leverage to get what I want.... but overall, I spend a LOT of time at her place. It would make sense financially for me to help with the bills/rent, and save on my own expenses of having a $610 a month apartment. But again, my second-guessing, I haven't suggested any kind of roommate arrangement because I feel like it would be awkward.

I know she's not stupid, honestly.... I know she has to have some clue how I feel, but she acts like she has really NO CLUE how I feel. At times, she acts like she doesn't know how SHE feels. We both have tested around 140IQ and we both have college degrees. But on this, we're both clueless it seems.

Last time when I asserted that someone acts like she have no clue, she really had no clue :P

tsukaima wrote:
The only way I've been able to show her that I love her is to be there for her and treat her right. And she shows me that she needs and appreciates me, and she is always there for me and supports me when I need it as well... Though emotional support is hard for her, I can tell that she tries. That's why I think we need to have an honest and open discussion... for all practical purposes, we already ARE in a relationship. There's no sex, but that's something that is a much bigger issue when you haven't even admitted the relationship exists.

I think she's afraid that if she admits there's a relationship, that I'll instantly get jealous, controlling, start doing public displays of affection, start being demanding of her time, start expecting her to fit into gender stereotypes better, and immediately get barefoot and pregnant.... all of that scares her so it's easier to just ... not be in a relationship. But I would hope she could understand by now that's not who I am either.

Maybe this thread is as much for me to work out my thoughts and feelings as much as it is for me to figure out how to discuss it with her... I dunno....

I certainly hope you'll arrive at some constructive conclusions.



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29 Feb 2012, 4:07 pm

tsukaima wrote:
I know she's not stupid, honestly.... I know she has to have some clue how I feel, but she acts like she has really NO CLUE how I feel. At times, she acts like she doesn't know how SHE feels. We both have tested around 140IQ and we both have college degrees. But on this, we're both clueless it seems.

The only way I've been able to show her that I love her is to be there for her and treat her right. And she shows me that she needs and appreciates me, and she is always there for me and supports me when I need it as well... Though emotional support is hard for her, I can tell that she tries. That's why I think we need to have an honest and open discussion... for all practical purposes, we already ARE in a relationship. There's no sex, but that's something that is a much bigger issue when you haven't even admitted the relationship exists.

I think she's afraid that if she admits there's a relationship, that I'll instantly get jealous, controlling, start doing public displays of affection, start being demanding of her time, start expecting her to fit into gender stereotypes better, and immediately get barefoot and pregnant.... all of that scares her so it's easier to just ... not be in a relationship. But I would hope she could understand by now that's not who I am either.

Maybe this thread is as much for me to work out my thoughts and feelings as much as it is for me to figure out how to discuss it with her... I dunno....


Emotional maturity is different from intelligence. it seems some of the most intelligent people in the world often have a more difficult time with emotion.

Maybe she really doesn't know how she feels (sometimes I don't know how I feel either) , or maybe she doesn't want to deal with how she feels, so she's ignoring it (I do that too) and is willing to continue the way you've been for the past 10 years because it's comfortable and she knows it works and has a history of success, especially since sex is not an issue. (i.e.; this point of view: Why get more serious if friendship is what you're comfortable with and works?).

Also, the idea of a more formal relationship may possibly subconsciously make her feel vulnerable....it may not have to do with trusting you to be there for her because you've already shown her that you're there for her.


If where she lives is big enough that two people who need their own space can co-habitat (like at least a living room plus a separate bedroom), then you might consider the practicality of moving in together if she's open to that, but it's the emotional aspect of a more serious relationship that she doesn't seem to want to think about. Also, if you consider the divorce rate, getting married doesn't prove anything about a "happy ever after". It shows it's difficult to be married and love doesn't always last.


She may be thinking about this in a very intellectual way, and not at all in an emotional way.


Edit to add: personally, I've always found an incomparable beauty in platonic relationships, even though I am happily married.


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Autism Spectrum quotient: 41, Empathy Quotient: 19


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29 Feb 2012, 4:27 pm

kojot wrote:
That's a very insightful comment. This is exactly what I and gf were afraid in the beginning 'cause we were great friends before and we didn't wanna loose it. Relationships are hard on their own, but when people have problems with understanding their emotions it can be even worse. I know it from my own experience, I had to learn that I do have more emotions than I was aware of and what they all mean. It took me a while and I'm still learning, but it's possible and crucial.

About the hermit mode, I think I know what you mean. When I feel that bad I usually tell my gf to stay a least 1 m from me and don't touch me, don't make noise. And I talk to her and when I feel little better I let her hold my hand. It's a question of trust.
It may be the other way around, she probably have some day that she will need to go to hermit mode too, so It might help to talk about it. I don't know, it's hard to give an accurate advice with so little data.


Thanks 8) I'm still learning about emotion too.
I only realized how emotionally immature I am a few months ago...can I still say better late than never at 46? *lol* :(


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Autism Spectrum quotient: 41, Empathy Quotient: 19


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02 Mar 2012, 3:11 am

To me she sounds like she might have privacy issues relating to her emotions. I'd be afraid that even if you did lay it bare she might reject you out of anxiety alone, whether or not those are her true feelings.

Stories like this make me want to say go for it, and I'd really like it if you two got together.. but reality and romanticism are two different things entirely, and things pan out much less smoothly in reality.

10 years is a long time and it sounds like you two have a special personal relationship, I can see how this would take a lot of courage.
I know from my personal experience I had a crush on a friend, we were drunk and I tried to escalate things, she rejected me. We're still friends and we don't talk about it, but I can tell we both sense a small rift... It's created an elephant in the room.
Hard to say how you should proceed, it's a gamble.



tsukaima
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02 Mar 2012, 3:14 am

thanks for the responses....

I am processing things in my head and IRL, and will report back if I figure anything out.

Sorry for the lack of personal responses to the last few posts, but ... it's a lot to think about.