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Kaybee
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11 Oct 2010, 11:01 pm

Sparrowrose wrote:
Kaybee wrote:
Sparrowrose wrote:
Kaybee wrote:
Sparrowrose wrote:
Kaybee wrote:
GraphicHayley wrote:
I'd rather not get lied to. So I treat others the way I'd like to be treated.


You should be careful with this thinking. The axiom does say "treat others as you would wish to be treated," but I find it does not always hold for aspies. Our wants often do not parallel those of most people.


Ever since childhood, I've said that the Golden Rule should be, "Do unto others as they would have you do unto them," for that very reason (although I didn't know I had asperger's back then, but I knew that I often wanted things very different from what I observed others seeming to want.) As an adult, I would modify it to, "so long as you are not harming yourself in the process, do unto others as they would have you do unto them."


I always thought much the same, Sparrow. :) I like your expression better. I think I would edit it slightly to say "So long as you are not harming anyone in the process, do unto others as they would have you do unto them."

Now all we need to do is work on our mind-reading powers.


Your way works, too. I assumed that since people don't want to be harmed, that was implicit in the act of doing unto others as they would have you do unto them. But specified not harming one's self because so many people find it too easy to "give themselves away" and always take care of everybody but themselves.

But not harming anyone includes one's self, so it works as well and is perhaps more elegant.


I think some people do want to be treated in ways which are harmful to them.


That seems to create an ethical quandry. If I'm responsible for someone, such as a child, I'm obligated to do thinks they don't like if things they do like would harm them. But I don't think I have that obligation with fellow adults. Otherwise, I can see situations like, "please pass the salt." "no, because it will harm you." A grown-up should be allowed to eat salt if they want to and thus wouldn't the Golden Rule -- even a modified verison of it -- suggest that I should pass them the salt?

If someone wants something that will harm them but doesn't know that it will harm them, I could see an obligation to warn them that it is harmful. But if they still want it, whether or not I supply it will fall into a strange grey area. And philosophy has always made my head hurt, so that's as far as I can follow the ethical quandry . . .


That's not exactly how I meant it. Adults should be free to make their own decisions, of course, especially in regards to such things as salt (by the way, salt is much-maligned, but necessary for the human body; people with low blood pressure often crave it because their bodies need it, for example). Allowing them to make their own bad decisions doesn't mean that you're not treating the person well; you're treating them like an adult, respecting their decisions and their right to make them, etc.

I was referring more to how they like to be treated by others. For example, someone with low self-esteem might seek out a partner who criticizes them, or might try to increase their sense of self-worth by engaging in relationships, including friendships, which are one-sided (letting themselves be used, for example).

This is rather off-track, though. Sorry for the thread jack.


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Sparrowrose
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11 Oct 2010, 11:48 pm

Kaybee wrote:
I was referring more to how they like to be treated by others. For example, someone with low self-esteem might seek out a partner who criticizes them, or might try to increase their sense of self-worth by engaging in relationships, including friendships, which are one-sided (letting themselves be used, for example).


That's exactly the sort of stuff I was thinking of when I said "so long as you are not harming yourself in the process"-- because someone else might want to be allowed to pick you to pieces or might want you to give them all of your money, but you have to think first of not harming yourself before thinking of what the other person wants.

If *that* version of a Golden Rule were universal, one wouldn't need to think about whether one should treat others the way they want to be treated or not, only whether their own strong and healthy boundaries were being transgressed.


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chainsawswinger
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12 Oct 2010, 7:01 pm

I'm an NT and I get told I'm too blunt *all the time*. :lol:

However, you CAN be "honest" in a socially acceptable manner. I call it the Sushi Method.

Image

Ok. So think of the crab meat inside as the criticism. Think of the rice exterior as your friendly, positive and polite attitude. Think of the whole unsliced roll as YOU.

First, try to reserve your criticism for when you're asked for it. (That is, wait until they slice into the roll to reveal the crab meat.)

Then, preface the critique with a positive comment. (Start with the rice)
Then weave in your critique, using soft words, like "kind of", "a bit", "a tad", "maybe", "it could be even better if" (the meat)
Then remind them of the positive aspect. (wrap back up with the rice.)

Example: Let's say your friend did a HORRIBLE job at her presentation. She asks you what you thought.

You: "You looked great up there, really polished and the material was great. Though it seemed like you spoke a bit rapidly and got a little lost for words. Work on your pace, and you'll do spectactularly. But other than that, your presence was amazing, and I really enjoyed your lecture. Great job."

And be sure to sound enthusiastic about the positive parts, and try to sound understanding and relaxed when you explain the critique.


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GraphicHayley
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12 Oct 2010, 11:05 pm

Kaybee wrote:
Sparrowrose wrote:
Kaybee wrote:
Sparrowrose wrote:
Kaybee wrote:
Sparrowrose wrote:
Kaybee wrote:
GraphicHayley wrote:
I'd rather not get lied to. So I treat others the way I'd like to be treated.


You should be careful with this thinking. The axiom does say "treat others as you would wish to be treated," but I find it does not always hold for aspies. Our wants often do not parallel those of most people.


Ever since childhood, I've said that the Golden Rule should be, "Do unto others as they would have you do unto them," for that very reason (although I didn't know I had asperger's back then, but I knew that I often wanted things very different from what I observed others seeming to want.) As an adult, I would modify it to, "so long as you are not harming yourself in the process, do unto others as they would have you do unto them."


I always thought much the same, Sparrow. :) I like your expression better. I think I would edit it slightly to say "So long as you are not harming anyone in the process, do unto others as they would have you do unto them."

Now all we need to do is work on our mind-reading powers.


Your way works, too. I assumed that since people don't want to be harmed, that was implicit in the act of doing unto others as they would have you do unto them. But specified not harming one's self because so many people find it too easy to "give themselves away" and always take care of everybody but themselves.

But not harming anyone includes one's self, so it works as well and is perhaps more elegant.


I think some people do want to be treated in ways which are harmful to them.


That seems to create an ethical quandry. If I'm responsible for someone, such as a child, I'm obligated to do thinks they don't like if things they do like would harm them. But I don't think I have that obligation with fellow adults. Otherwise, I can see situations like, "please pass the salt." "no, because it will harm you." A grown-up should be allowed to eat salt if they want to and thus wouldn't the Golden Rule -- even a modified verison of it -- suggest that I should pass them the salt?

If someone wants something that will harm them but doesn't know that it will harm them, I could see an obligation to warn them that it is harmful. But if they still want it, whether or not I supply it will fall into a strange grey area. And philosophy has always made my head hurt, so that's as far as I can follow the ethical quandry . . .


That's not exactly how I meant it. Adults should be free to make their own decisions, of course, especially in regards to such things as salt (by the way, salt is much-maligned, but necessary for the human body; people with low blood pressure often crave it because their bodies need it, for example). Allowing them to make their own bad decisions doesn't mean that you're not treating the person well; you're treating them like an adult, respecting their decisions and their right to make them, etc.

I was referring more to how they like to be treated by others. For example, someone with low self-esteem might seek out a partner who criticizes them, or might try to increase their sense of self-worth by engaging in relationships, including friendships, which are one-sided (letting themselves be used, for example).

This is rather off-track, though. Sorry for the thread jack.


No, I really enjoyed reading this! And it is so on topic... it's weird because everything you said relates to me.. it's helped me better understand.

So.. what I'm about to say is pretty personal.. and I'm in tears right now thinking about it. I have a problem with letting my friends use me. Something I'm trying to get out of. I'm tired of it.. it's draining. One of these friends is especially this way. She tells me I'm way too blunt, and rarely asks me for my opinion anymore because I guess I have hurt her too much she has built up a defense against me. I've noticed she's very distant now. But maybe I was being that way because I wanted the "truth" from her.. (this is something you both brought light to me about).. that I always thought she sugar coated everything.. Explains why I might have been too harsh with her.. :( I didn't want to sugar coat to "set an example".. But you know, she was probably being honest the whole time.. and my lack of trust caused her not to trust me.

I want healthy, trusting relationships with my friends again. The first step is having confidence in myself. I want to treat others with trust and truth.. I feel like that's the ultimate combo.



Kaybee
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13 Oct 2010, 8:19 am

GraphicHayley wrote:
Kaybee wrote:
Quote:
lots of stuff


That's not exactly how I meant it. Adults should be free to make their own decisions, of course, especially in regards to such things as salt (by the way, salt is much-maligned, but necessary for the human body; people with low blood pressure often crave it because their bodies need it, for example). Allowing them to make their own bad decisions doesn't mean that you're not treating the person well; you're treating them like an adult, respecting their decisions and their right to make them, etc.

I was referring more to how they like to be treated by others. For example, someone with low self-esteem might seek out a partner who criticizes them, or might try to increase their sense of self-worth by engaging in relationships, including friendships, which are one-sided (letting themselves be used, for example).

This is rather off-track, though. Sorry for the thread jack.


No, I really enjoyed reading this! And it is so on topic... it's weird because everything you said relates to me.. it's helped me better understand.

So.. what I'm about to say is pretty personal.. and I'm in tears right now thinking about it. I have a problem with letting my friends use me. Something I'm trying to get out of. I'm tired of it.. it's draining. One of these friends is especially this way. She tells me I'm way too blunt, and rarely asks me for my opinion anymore because I guess I have hurt her too much she has built up a defense against me. I've noticed she's very distant now. But maybe I was being that way because I wanted the "truth" from her.. (this is something you both brought light to me about).. that I always thought she sugar coated everything.. Explains why I might have been too harsh with her.. :( I didn't want to sugar coat to "set an example".. But you know, she was probably being honest the whole time.. and my lack of trust caused her not to trust me.

I want healthy, trusting relationships with my friends again. The first step is having confidence in myself. I want to treat others with trust and truth.. I feel like that's the ultimate combo.


I'm sorry to hear you're in such a bad place in your personal relationships, but glad that you've found here some insight into yourself and perhaps some motivation to make changes for the better. Having confidence in oneself goes a long way. The first step, I think, is learning about yourself. I expect that one is an endless process, or very nearly so, but you seem to making progress in that regard. Only once you know yourself can you become comfortable and confident in who you are.

It seems hypocritical of me to say these things, being far from "finished" myself, but I believe I have come a long way in this area, and I aim to continue to do so. I hope my own experience and terribly limited knowledge can be of assistance.

Best wishes on your journey.


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13 Oct 2010, 9:53 am

My close friends have told me I don't BS and say how I feel/think, they have said they like that though because if they want honest advice/opinions on things they ask me. They go to their other friends if they just want someone to give them the general "you'll be fine/you look great" routine.
I'm not good at lying, I do try, but I can't pull it off.


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