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Sweetleaf
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25 Nov 2011, 12:01 pm

lastnightilie wrote:
I disagree with this entire premise. All of the things mentioned are basic human needs. I understand that our society does not think that everyone deserves to have these needs met, and that if you are not capable of achieving them you may as well be miserable forever or dead. But not only is that cruel, but why did we ever even form societies if we were just going to leave each other out in the cold? That's the thing I don't get. But anyway, I think most people do care about other people on some level, and don't believe that it's okay for some people to have terrible lives. It's just that no one has found a way to ensure that everyone gets all of these things yet.



I totally agree with this......and I guess i have to do some more research but I have heard and read from a few sources that we do actually have the technology and resources for everyone to have a decent quality of life, things just aren't being put to use that way but they could be.


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StonedMoonie
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25 Nov 2011, 12:53 pm

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And if its such a nanny state, why don't I have access to any healthcare treatment?

Because they're already bankrupt, totally incompetent and most of the money they take in for 'programs' go to bureaucrat desk jockies. Not that it would be any good if it existed, this is what Obamacare, Iraq and the Post Office have in common: they're run by the government. There is a reason why they provide nothing but annoyance and obstruction.



b9
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25 Nov 2011, 12:58 pm

i have been rather brutal lately to some of my customers who have unpaid accounts that are weeks old.

now the world owes me only $27,616.24

i am getting there,

when the world owes me nothing, i will retire from it.



lastnightilie
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25 Nov 2011, 1:04 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
lastnightilie wrote:
I disagree with this entire premise. All of the things mentioned are basic human needs. I understand that our society does not think that everyone deserves to have these needs met, and that if you are not capable of achieving them you may as well be miserable forever or dead. But not only is that cruel, but why did we ever even form societies if we were just going to leave each other out in the cold? That's the thing I don't get. But anyway, I think most people do care about other people on some level, and don't believe that it's okay for some people to have terrible lives. It's just that no one has found a way to ensure that everyone gets all of these things yet.



I totally agree with this......and I guess i have to do some more research but I have heard and read from a few sources that we do actually have the technology and resources for everyone to have a decent quality of life, things just aren't being put to use that way but they could be.

Yes, they say it's a shortage of justice, not resources.

The sad thing is, it is the mainstream opinion that people should work society to get what they want and ignore what they are putting back into it. For some reason, the education system conditions us to think that way. And you can't argue with people who have internalized those beliefs- they will always be that way, even if you literally proved to them that everyone could be happy/comfortable at the same time and competition is harmful more than helpful. (I'm not saying I know how to prove that, but I do know that a lot of people would not be satisfied even if I did.)



Sweetleaf
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25 Nov 2011, 1:22 pm

StonedMoonie wrote:
Quote:
And if its such a nanny state, why don't I have access to any healthcare treatment?

Because they're already bankrupt, totally incompetent and most of the money they take in for 'programs' go to bureaucrat desk jockies. Not that it would be any good if it existed, this is what Obamacare, Iraq and the Post Office have in common: they're run by the government. There is a reason why they provide nothing but annoyance and obstruction.


Fair enough........so then how is it a nanny state?


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kevinjh
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25 Nov 2011, 3:53 pm

I do not like to intrude upon discussion, but this thread would work better in the Politics, Philosophy, and Religion forum. It seems to be moving farther and farther away from its original intent.



StonedMoonie
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25 Nov 2011, 4:04 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
StonedMoonie wrote:
Quote:
And if its such a nanny state, why don't I have access to any healthcare treatment?

Because they're already bankrupt, totally incompetent and most of the money they take in for 'programs' go to bureaucrat desk jockies. Not that it would be any good if it existed, this is what Obamacare, Iraq and the Post Office have in common: they're run by the government. There is a reason why they provide nothing but annoyance and obstruction.


Fair enough........so then how is it a nanny state?

It's an incompetent nanny state. It manages to ruin the country in an extremely inefficient manner. But thank God the government isn't efficient, because then we'd really have to kill them.



Sweetleaf
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26 Nov 2011, 9:44 pm

StonedMoonie wrote:
Quote:
And if its such a nanny state, why don't I have access to any healthcare treatment?

Because they're already bankrupt, totally incompetent and most of the money they take in for 'programs' go to bureaucrat desk jockies. Not that it would be any good if it existed, this is what Obamacare, Iraq and the Post Office have in common: they're run by the government. There is a reason why they provide nothing but annoyance and obstruction.


Well the government fails for providing things for its people, but so do those huge multi-national corporations, as far as I am concerned neither are to be trusted.


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marshall
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26 Nov 2011, 10:21 pm

The only reason this stupid "every man for himself" mentality exists is because in reality we are all soft and fat and spoiled with modern technology that makes our life physically comfortable. In this day people have the luxury to consider themselves rugged individualists because they have access to all kinds of s**t they completely take for granted. People hate government only because they completely take for granted what it does for them.



Dark_Lord_2008
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28 Nov 2011, 7:55 am

Life is not fair when you are a poor Aspie and you have been dealt a bad hand due to genetics and external factors outside of your own control.

Not fair.



b9
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28 Nov 2011, 9:41 am

Dark_Lord_2008 wrote:
Life is not fair when you are a poor Aspie and you have been dealt a bad hand due to genetics and external factors outside of your own control.

Not fair.

it is complicated being a human. i sometimes think of the bacteria that thrive in deep ocean thermal fissures. it looks like hell to me, but to them it may be a lifetime of blissful acceptance of nutrition, and free habitat.

it is severe that humans govern other humans lives to the extent that we must pay other people for everything we do.

if someone is completely destitute and decides to get a tent and "go bush", and grow their own vegetables and stuff, the "government" will say it is not permitted to fend for yourself, and they will order you off uninhabited lands, because all uninhabited lands are supposedly their property (even though they paid nothing for it).

how can they say one is trespassing on the the world? we were all born into this world, and the fact that we have to pay to live here means that others have claimed the world for themselves, and they "own" it, and one can not live in it without paying them.

people in general are either sheep who accept that they must pay, or renegades who eventually will be incarcerated in their prisons.



Sweetleaf
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28 Nov 2011, 3:48 pm

marshall wrote:
The only reason this stupid "every man for himself" mentality exists is because in reality we are all soft and fat and spoiled with modern technology that makes our life physically comfortable. In this day people have the luxury to consider themselves rugged individualists because they have access to all kinds of sh** they completely take for granted. People hate government only because they completely take for granted what it does for them.


good point, however I hate the government because all the politicians can be bought, they don't give a damn about the citizens of this country.


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Dark_Lord_2008
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28 Nov 2011, 10:22 pm

i am an extremely intense person. i get very angry, frustrated and aggressive if anyone tries to correct me or argues against my opinions/beliefs.

I firmly stand by my beliefs/opinions and i get upset when questioned. even if i am wrong i will still religiously defend my position and well insults, raised voice and possible violent reaction from me are to be expected.

aspergers makes me an opinionated, negative, pessimistic wannabe dictator of the wordl.



Sweetleaf
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29 Nov 2011, 1:45 am

Dark_Lord_2008 wrote:
i am an extremely intense person. i get very angry, frustrated and aggressive if anyone tries to correct me or argues against my opinions/beliefs.

I firmly stand by my beliefs/opinions and i get upset when questioned. even if i am wrong i will still religiously defend my position and well insults, raised voice and possible violent reaction from me are to be expected.

aspergers makes me an opinionated, negative, pessimistic wannabe dictator of the wordl.


and I just wanna be a cool hippie like chick who does not give a crap unless you try to screw me or my friends, then I'll be a freaking demon and no one wants that............so yeah I prefer to be chill as hell with anyone no matter what, but sometimes it does not work out that way.


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JacobV
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21 May 2014, 1:53 pm

ialdabaoth wrote:
The world doesn't owe you loving parents.

The world doesn't owe you friends.

The world doesn't owe you a job.

The world doesn't owe you food, or shelter, or water, or warmth.

The world doesn't owe you fairness.

The world doesn't owe you happiness.

The world doesn't owe you a life.

So where does that put you?


This is the same mentality that allowed for the majority of people to be slaves and the few to rule them for thousands of years. I can agree that the world doesn't owe anyone anything, but I do believe that humans owe each other equality. some people thrive on the backs of those who are sufferring... and that is not acceptable. There have been countless revolutions, coups, and "springs" throughout history that sometimes people will not accept the order of nature.

What's the point of this statement anyway? That it is acceptable for the powerful to bully the weak? In our most basic animal nature maybe... but humans have evolved beyond this.. or at least we'd like to think that



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22 May 2014, 11:32 am

To those who have no healthcare: if American and over 26, what did you find at healthsherpa.com? (If you're under 26, you belong on your parents' insurance.)

I haven't read through all the Randian hard-ons here, but wish desperately that 40-year-old Republican men would can it with their "all by myself!" fantasies, like they're overgrown preschoolers. Because that's all it is, but they cling to it so fervently that they're willing to distort their own pictures however necessary to believe that they got whatever it is they've got All By Themselves. Which means ignoring everyone who helped and helps them. Except in private moments when they admit that their wives actually do most of the work of turning them into tolerable and successful human beings, and then they hate and fear their wives for it, and fear even more that their wives will leave them. Not because they love the woman -- they barely notice her -- but because without her it'll be clear inside a month what pathetic wrecks they are.

The flip side of American All By Myself (With a Boost from my Main Man, Jesus) is the bleak narrative of American wreckage. Death of a Salesman. The Hustler. A Face in the Crowd. Taxi Driver. Dog Day Afternoon. Do the Right Thing. Anything by the Coen brothers. In all these, again, the women barely exist, we're just collateral damage. It's just a desperate and childish bid for boys to feel like men. Grown men understand that All By Myself is a sad, lonely, destructive fantasy.

I'm in my mid-40s and have been lucky enough to live in countries with saner mentalities about how people get by. I'm also a working single mother whose ex was disabled and whose own family went AWOL in fine Boomer style. (Unfortunately it's not just me they're happy to abandon; it's anyone who's not good company out at lunch, I guess. Just shanghaied my grandma into a nursing home, and my brother's mid-divorce and will find raising a child without help quite difficult, I suspect.) Each year for the last eight, I've received in the mail a large check courtesy of former president Bill Clinton. It's called the Earned Income Tax Credit, and its premise is that if you work your ass off, you should at least be able to have a place to live. It's nonintrusive and automatic: if your income's below a certain amount, especially if you have children, a check just arrives.

Because of this sort of thinking, my daughter has grown up in a decent house in a safe neighborhood and gone to a good school where they not only teach her but know her well and look after her. She's had health insurance -- subsidized one way or another by tax money all the way through -- and all her shots and checkups. She has eyeglasses and can see the board. She also goes to summer camp, because there are people who believe that children are in fact owed decent childhoods. She knows how to swim because an entire community believes that anyone should be able to go swimming, and she reads all the time because the same community believes books are so important that in summer the (publicly-funded, because people deserve transportation) bus downtown is free for any kid with a library card.

In short she's a bright, healthy, happy, confident, nice, and reasonably well-educated kid with a good head on her shoulders and an excellent shot at a happy and successful adulthood, even though she's got one stable, if ASish, parent who doesn't make much money and not much in the way of extended family.

We may run into some trouble when it comes time for college, because around the time I was in college, a different president decided it was time to quit subsidizing these lazy punks who just wanted to sit in classrooms and study engineering or whatever, because nobody owes them college educations. And the states likewise started de-funding their public universities, which means the universities have put tuition through the roof. Where once you could work for the summer and pay your tuition that way, you're likely instead to graduate with $25K in debt, and your parents will have debt to match, or more. Debt which is nondischargeable and carries a relatively high interest rate, because the banks and our government are, apparently, entitled to make as much as they can off 18-year-olds who're told that if they don't get a college degree they can't get a job. This glorious scheme has resulted in adult children living at home until 30 and not starting families of their own because they can't afford to, even though they spent college freaking out about taking a wrong step and winding up unemployed or unemployable after borrowing so much money. It's helped turn them into wild-eyed points-grubbers who don't much care what they're learning so long as the points are good and they get to keep their scholarships and graduate on time.

So, to those who started this thread: Please take your hands off your dicks long enough to grow up a bit and see that in fact All By Myself is not a workable social model. And no, you can skip jumping straight to the Soviet paradise, because other countries have already worked out various forms of happy medium, to which Americans are emigrating in increasing numbers -- when they'll have us.