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Vexcalibur
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Sun May 13, 2012 8:45 am

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In view of this week’s news on the same sex marriage issue, here is a summary of recent survey findings on same sex marriage:

1. Support for same sex marriage has been growing and in the last few years support has grown at an accelerated rate with no sign of slowing down. A review of public polling shows that up to 2009 support for gay marriage increased at a rate of 1% a year. Starting in 2010 the change in the level of support accelerated to 5% a year. The most recent public polling shows supporters of gay marriage outnumber opponents by a margin of roughly 10% (for instance: NBC / WSJ poll in February / March: support 49%, oppose 40%).

2. The increase in support is taking place among all partisan groups. While more Democrats support gay marriage than Republicans, support levels among Republicans are increasing over time. The same is true of age: younger people support same sex marriage more often than older people, but the trends show that all age groups are rethinking their position.

3. Polling conducted among Republicans show that majorities of Republicans and Republican leaning voters support extending basic legal protections to gays and lesbians. These include majority Republican support for:

a. Protecting gays and lesbians against being fired for reasons of sexual orientation
b. Protections against bullying and harassment
c. Repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.
d. Right to visit partners in hospitals
e. Protecting partners against loss of home in case of severe medical emergencies or death
f. Legal protection in some form for gay couples whether it be same sex marriage or domestic partnership (only 29% of Republicans oppose legal recognition in any form).

Recommendation: A statement reflecting recent developments on this issue along the following lines:

“People who believe in equality under the law as a fundamental principle, as I do, will agree that this principle extends to gay and lesbian couples; gay and lesbian couples should not face discrimination and their relationship should be protected under the law. People who disagree on the fundamental nature of marriage can agree, at the same time, that gays and lesbians should receive essential rights and protections such as hospital visitation, adoption rights, and health and death benefits."

Other thoughts / Q&A: Follow up to questions about affirmative action:

“This is not about giving anyone extra protections or privileges, this is about making sure that everyone – regardless of sexual orientation – is provided the same protections against discrimination that you and I enjoy.”

Why public attitudes might be changing:

“As more people have become aware of friends and family members who are gay, attitudes have begun to shift at an accelerated pace. This is not about a generational shift in attitudes, this is about people changing their thinking as they recognize their friends and family members who are gay or lesbian.”

Conservative fundamentals:

“As people who promote personal responsibility, family values, commitment and stability, and emphasize freedom and limited government we have to recognize that freedom means freedom for everyone. This includes the freedom to decide how you live and to enter into relationships of your choosing, the freedom to live without excessive interference of the regulatory force of government.

~George Bush's own pollster
http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com ... ssues.html


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HisDivineMajesty
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Sun May 13, 2012 8:49 am

"Everyone who opposes gay marriage is gay!"

That's a lot clearer, and it means they don't have to deal with numbers and reasoning. You know, most voters probably aren't able to interpret that information properly. That's why rhetoric works, and facts generally don't.



techstepgenr8tion
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Sun May 13, 2012 9:58 am

There's either a deliberate "bait and switch" going on in this article or, the author sincerely doesn't understand what's going on with the marriage issue.

To me this blurb is the biggest tell:

Quote:
3. Polling conducted among Republicans show that majorities of Republicans and Republican leaning voters support extending basic legal protections to gays and lesbians. These include majority Republican support for:

a. Protecting gays and lesbians against being fired for reasons of sexual orientation
b. Protections against bullying and harassment
c. Repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.
d. Right to visit partners in hospitals
e. Protecting partners against loss of home in case of severe medical emergencies or death
f. Legal protection in some form for gay couples whether it be same sex marriage or domestic partnership (only 29% of Republicans oppose legal recognition in any form)

It seems like the author is implying that both a) the republican electorate - by being in support of all six of these things - is in support of gay marriage as well and that b) by being against gay marriage the republican leadership is specifically against all six of these items as well. The logic arbitrarily ties marriage to gay rights in general, which would be great if the only issue with legitimizing gay marriage was pro-gay vs. anti-gay; its not that simple though and most of the arguments against gay marriage come from people who again are all for a) thru f).



LKL
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Sun May 13, 2012 1:51 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
There's either a deliberate "bait and switch" going on in this article or, the author sincerely doesn't understand what's going on with the marriage issue.

To me this blurb is the biggest tell:
Quote:
3. Polling conducted among Republicans show that majorities of Republicans and Republican leaning voters support extending basic legal protections to gays and lesbians. These include majority Republican support for:

a. Protecting gays and lesbians against being fired for reasons of sexual orientation
b. Protections against bullying and harassment
c. Repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.
d. Right to visit partners in hospitals
e. Protecting partners against loss of home in case of severe medical emergencies or death
f. Legal protection in some form for gay couples whether it be same sex marriage or domestic partnership (only 29% of Republicans oppose legal recognition in any form)

It seems like the author is implying that both a) the republican electorate - by being in support of all six of these things - is in support of gay marriage as well and that b) by being against gay marriage the republican leadership is specifically against all six of these items as well. The logic arbitrarily ties marriage to gay rights in general, which would be great if the only issue with legitimizing gay marriage was pro-gay vs. anti-gay; its not that simple though and most of the arguments against gay marriage come from people who again are all for a) thru f).

Those things are not quite synonymous, but it's not to far of a stretch since those rights are the rights conferred by marriage.



Jacoby
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Sun May 13, 2012 2:12 pm

Views are changing, perhaps not as quickly as polls indicate but eventually they will change for the reasons they stated. People's views on gay rights change drastically when a friend, family member, or even a public figure comes out as gay, you see these aren't any different than you or I are and they deserve the same rights as individuals.



simon_says
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Sun May 13, 2012 5:02 pm

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There's either a deliberate "bait and switch" going on in this article or, the author sincerely doesn't understand what's going on with the marriage issue.


The author is a high profile Republican pollster. In fact he's a friend of Karl Rove and did Bush's polling in 2004. I think he knows a fair bit about the politics involved and can read polls. Polls show outright support for gay marriage is rising even with Republicans and across all demographics.

He's giving them good advice and trying to prevent them from getting trapped on the far right. With the usual subtext that the fight is already lost with the next generation.



Joker
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Fri May 18, 2012 6:03 pm

Republicans used to be some what good many years ago but their far to radical and often against forms of moderation.



Kraichgauer
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Fri May 18, 2012 7:59 pm

The day Republicans renounce their opposition to gay marriage is the day when closeted gay Republican politicians don't have to fear for their careers if caught with their pants literally down.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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Sat May 19, 2012 2:34 am

Joker wrote:
Republicans used to be some what good many years ago but their far to radical and often against forms of moderation.


The libertarian aspects of the Republic polity have been displaced by the aspects pushed by the ultra-religious folk.

Not that the Democrats are much better, mind you. The Democrats have been taken over by the latter day Progressives who preach a secular religion predicted that the State (or Government) is the main engine of society, not individuals and voluntary associations of individuals. There is a Liberal church, if you will, that has made a kind of secular God out of the State (or Government). And this goes back quite a way. It goes back at least as far as the days of Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson.

ruveyn



Kraichgauer
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Sat May 19, 2012 2:42 am

ruveyn wrote:
Joker wrote:
Republicans used to be some what good many years ago but their far to radical and often against forms of moderation.


The libertarian aspects of the Republic polity have been displaced by the aspects pushed by the ultra-religious folk.

Not that the Democrats are much better, mind you. The Democrats have been taken over by the latter day Progressives who preach a secular religion predicted that the State (or Government) is the main engine of society, not individuals and voluntary associations of individuals. There is a Liberal church, if you will, that has made a kind of secular God out of the State (or Government). And this goes back quite a way. It goes back at least as far as the days of Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson.

ruveyn


How about us liberals who cotton to traditional religion (that includes plenty of Jews as well as Christians)?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Joker
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Sat May 19, 2012 2:46 am

ruveyn wrote:
Joker wrote:
Republicans used to be some what good many years ago but their far to radical and often against forms of moderation.


The libertarian aspects of the Republic polity have been displaced by the aspects pushed by the ultra-religious folk.

Not that the Democrats are much better, mind you. The Democrats have been taken over by the latter day Progressives who preach a secular religion predicted that the State (or Government) is the main engine of society, not individuals and voluntary associations of individuals. There is a Liberal church, if you will, that has made a kind of secular God out of the State (or Government). And this goes back quite a way. It goes back at least as far as the days of Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson.

ruveyn


Which is why I hate it when religion plays a role in politics. This is why politically I am a strong independent.



ruveyn
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Sat May 19, 2012 9:15 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

How about us liberals who cotton to traditional religion (that includes plenty of Jews as well as Christians)?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


A socially conditioned habit. The legacy and residue of one's upbringing. General it is harmless if not taken too seriously.

ruveyn



Kraichgauer
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Sat May 19, 2012 1:00 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

How about us liberals who cotton to traditional religion (that includes plenty of Jews as well as Christians)?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


A socially conditioned habit. The legacy and residue of one's upbringing. General it is harmless if not taken too seriously.

ruveyn


:lol:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ArrantPariah
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Sat May 19, 2012 2:26 pm

In the cumming weeks, look for Mitt Romney to experience an epiphany and come out in favour of gay marriage, if he thinks that it will help him to win the election.



simon_says
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Sat May 19, 2012 4:17 pm

Romney wants a constitutional amendment establishing marriage as between one man and one woman. Maybe his team believes that the minority who want that are especially motivated to vote on the issue. Or maybe he's compelled to do it to distance himself from his polygamist grandfather and/or the stranger elements of Mormonism.

I'm sure there is some political math behind it somewhere.



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