Substitute speech - hardest aspect of the NT world?

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Warsie
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16 Jun 2009, 8:00 pm

Greentea wrote:
That's precisely the issue. That if I ask a second time, that's when the NT rolls their eyes and start telling people I'm "difficult".


Respond to her claims by telling them the NT isn''t direct and intentionallyy deceiving you-and you ask for a clear answer that cannot be "misintrepreted".


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16 Jun 2009, 8:31 pm

Implied messages...I see. It's not a substitute that comes instead of the message but a comment that comes in addition to a comment we totally missed.

I realize now that I'm a lost case with those. And that they cause much of my clash with NTs. It's only recently that I've started to notice they exist. Jennisy, thank you so much for pinpointing the right concept (= the actual issue). NTs almost never take the time or make the effort to explain these things to us. Your daughter is very lucky to have you as a mother. I imagine you must be as baffled by our total ignorance of the implied, as we are by the NTs using implied messages... I can see how NTs would feel irritated, our asking again (and again, sometimes) probably makes them think we're playing dumb or being stubborn.

Implied = involved, suggested, or understood without being openly or directly expressed.
implicit, indicated, suggested, tacit, hinted at, understood, unexpressed, unspoken, unstated, undeclared, intimated, insinuated, alluded to, meant, connoted, intended, involved, latent, hidden, occult, lurking, indirectly meant, inferred, inferable, allusive, potential, foreshadowed, adumbrated, tacitly assumed, inferential, indirect, between the lines*.


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LabPet
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16 Jun 2009, 8:59 pm

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt101404.html

^ Oh, yes, Greentea. Coincidentally, right now on the WP homepage this was posted by ouinon (apologies if I misspelled). Related to your message.

You stated very well this peculiar phenomenon but it's not 'just language' but that my motive IS pure so very hard to know what another (NT variety) might be really saying >> meaning.

I am trusting & naive so what another says I believe is their truth but this is not necessarily the case. Then I also have to remember that many LACK memory of what they said before or those previous events so their meaning is inadvertently further contrived. Nothing ever matches.

I am somewhat echolaliac (correct usage?) when I do speak. But I was taught by a very kind and gifted chemist (very special mentor for me) to repeat his words IS clarification. This is right. In science to be precise and the requisite communication is essential. So if he would say "DCM Neat at 5 mL..." I would say it back. This confirms so then fulfills a function.

But in the social world it's often misinterpreted as wrong or stupid. The world of science is acclimated to Autism.

BTW...isn't it odd how one might say to you, "Lets have lunch together soon, ok?" But they totally do not mean it!

In sum, Lab Pet is NOT a mindreader! If they don't say it, with precision, I don't know what they're saying.

I shall not even enter the realm that certain humans seemingly do not have that logic-chip in their brain......sigh.


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17 Jun 2009, 3:29 am

LabPet wrote:
..isn't it odd how one might say to you, "Lets have lunch together soon, ok?" But they totally do not mean it!


It's worse than that. I've learned that when someone says that, they actually mean "Let's NOT get together ever". If they genuinely are interested in getting together with you soon, they'll NEVER use this sentence, because they KNOW it's interpreted by the other as lack of interest and purely formulistic. So if they WANT to get together with you, they'll either say nothing and surprise you with a call later on, or they'll ask/tell you on the spot something concrete. Usually they'll have something arranged with you or semi-arranged by the time they leave. When a person tells me "let's keep in touch", I'm actually disappointed and go home knowing I'll never hear from them again and if I call I'll be rejected.

And yes, we're naive and it takes us decades to learn that the verbal is not all there is to an interaction. That there is the non-verbal, which usually comes to send you a message without committment. A message that can't later be attributed to the speaker. You can't later say "she said she never wanted to hear from me again" so you can't harm them in case you're vindictive.


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cubedemon6073
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19 Jun 2009, 12:26 pm

Greentea wrote:
LabPet wrote:
..isn't it odd how one might say to you, "Lets have lunch together soon, ok?" But they totally do not mean it!


It's worse than that. I've learned that when someone says that, they actually mean "Let's NOT get together ever". If they genuinely are interested in getting together with you soon, they'll NEVER use this sentence, because they KNOW it's interpreted by the other as lack of interest and purely formulistic. So if they WANT to get together with you, they'll either say nothing and surprise you with a call later on, or they'll ask/tell you on the spot something concrete. Usually they'll have something arranged with you or semi-arranged by the time they leave. When a person tells me "let's keep in touch", I'm actually disappointed and go home knowing I'll never hear from them again and if I call I'll be rejected.

And yes, we're naive and it takes us decades to learn that the verbal is not all there is to an interaction. That there is the non-verbal, which usually comes to send you a message without committment. A message that can't later be attributed to the speaker. You can't later say "she said she never wanted to hear from me again" so you can't harm them in case you're vindictive.


Greentea, for all of my life I thought the non-verbal language was just tics or something that people had. I did not know it was a language at all. It shows what I know. Now I know why when I said things people did not react to what I truly said or interpreted me wrong. Why can't Let's have lunch together soon mean what it says. How do NTs logically derive this from not ever getting together again? I don't understand. It does not make any sense at all. No wonder I've had misunderstandings all my life and people misunderstood me.

This world is almost like the movie A scanner darkly. It's so surreal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Scanner_Darkly



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19 Jun 2009, 1:15 pm

Yes, it does make sense. Even if for us, Aspies, it looks like it doesn't. It means something like "no hard feelings", which means we're not friends but we're not enemies either, and should we ever come across each other again, it'll probably be nice again.


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elancee
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19 Jun 2009, 1:52 pm

Oh my. I've had this discussion many times with my NT husband:
"Please, say 'yes' or 'no' before offering advice, opinion or a solution?!"

In your case, Greentea, had the woman begun with "I'm not sure how many people will be here after 9pm" then given her suggestion about attending before your other commitment, would you have understood? That would have satisfied (and not confused) me.



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19 Jun 2009, 2:06 pm

Greentea wrote:
Yes, it does make sense. Even if for us, Aspies, it looks like it doesn't. It means something like "no hard feelings", which means we're not friends but we're not enemies either, and should we ever come across each other again, it'll probably be nice again.



Yes. That is exactly what it means. Just for the record, the way to differentiate between that and an actual intention to have lunch at some unspecified future time is by an add-on detail. If an NT person really does want to have lunch but not set a date at the moment, there will usually be a next sentence with just a bit more information but no actual date.

examples: "Let's have lunch together soon" is not meant as a literal lunch plan. It means what your quote says.

But if a literal lunch plan is desired, the NT person will tack on another sentence, like so...

"Let's have lunch together soon. There's a new barbecue place I'd love to try."

"Let's have lunch soon. I'm working against a deadline right now but I'll get in touch when the project is done."

"Let's have lunch soon. We have so much to catch up on."

None of which have actual dates attached, but that add-on sentence is the signifier that an actual lunch date is desired in the unspecified future.

(I've heard that it doesn't quite work this way in Hollywood where "let's have lunch together soon" actually means "let's have lunch together soon unless I succeed in destroying your career first, per my intentions. But if I don't, we actually will have lunch.")



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19 Jun 2009, 2:52 pm

Quote:
That's my interpretation of what she was probably thinking. NT's have a habit of making too many assumptions and then assuming that everyone will make the same assumptions as they do.

Surely that is demonstrative of lacking a Theory of Mind, as she is assuming that them other person will have the same thought proccesses as she does? Could it be that Aspies and Auties develop it later, but when we do it's a lot more advanced?



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19 Jun 2009, 3:09 pm

Magneto wrote:
Quote:
That's my interpretation of what she was probably thinking. NT's have a habit of making too many assumptions and then assuming that everyone will make the same assumptions as they do.

Surely that is demonstrative of lacking a Theory of Mind, as she is assuming that them other person will have the same thought proccesses as she does? Could it be that Aspies and Auties develop it later, but when we do it's a lot more advanced?

No. I think NT's often use the quick-and-sloppy "intuitive" version of ToM that gets the job done in some but not all settings. Because thinking about someone else's needs/desires comes as a natural habit to NT's they don't often actively observe their own thought processes with skepticism and critical analysis. Their ToM fails when they start projecting rather than using their intellect to analyze the situation in a self-honest way.



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19 Jun 2009, 3:17 pm

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY, I got one right ! !! !! ! I'm jumping up and down here! And I figured it out all on my own! :D

Janissy, it's wonderful having you here for corroboration or correction, thanks!!

Now for the logic of saying one thing instead of another...what would be wrong with saying just "It was nice meeting you, I hope to come across you again!" or something like that? :?


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19 Jun 2009, 3:42 pm

marshall wrote:
Magneto wrote:
Quote:
That's my interpretation of what she was probably thinking. NT's have a habit of making too many assumptions and then assuming that everyone will make the same assumptions as they do.

Surely that is demonstrative of lacking a Theory of Mind, as she is assuming that them other person will have the same thought proccesses as she does? Could it be that Aspies and Auties develop it later, but when we do it's a lot more advanced?

No. I think NT's often use the quick-and-sloppy "intuitive" version of ToM that gets the job done in some but not all settings. Because thinking about someone else's needs/desires comes as a natural habit to NT's they don't often actively observe their own thought processes with skepticism and critical analysis. Their ToM fails when they start projecting rather than using their intellect to analyze the situation in a self-honest way.

But still, just because all the swans you've seen are white it doesn't mean they all are. Especially if you've heard from reputable sources that there are lots of black swans out there.

They seem to be so used to it working that they deny it ever can't. So they don't really use ToM, it's just it goes undetected because most people think like they do. Aspies don't have that excuse, even among ourselves.



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19 Jun 2009, 3:50 pm

Greentea wrote:
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY, I got one right ! !! !! ! I'm jumping up and down here! And I figured it out all on my own! :D

Janissy, it's wonderful having you here for corroboration or correction, thanks!!

Now for the logic of saying one thing instead of another...what would be wrong with saying just "It was nice meeting you, I hope to come across you again!" or something like that? :?


That would be logical and actually does happen fairly often (I've said it myself many times). I have no idea how the "let's do lunch" thing started. It may only be a generation old (did they say it in the 50's????). But now, somehow, it has entered the (NT) cultural lexicon and there it will stay until some future generation abandons it as too old fashioned. Then something else will pop up to take its place.

What will never be abandoned is the NT tendency to create catchphrases that have a subtext that isn't immediately obvious and can only be learned by immersion in the local culture. We aren't being opaque just to bug you. It is an honest-to-God part of NT linguistic wiring.



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19 Jun 2009, 3:51 pm

Greentea wrote:
That's precisely the issue. That if I ask a second time, that's when the NT rolls their eyes and start telling people I'm "difficult". So I suppose the NT doesn't like to say "no", so the NT gives a non-answer instead of the "no", and I should understand that the answer to my question is "no". Then again, the answer might be "yes" or "I don't know", but I'll never know, because asking for a second time is considered being a nudge, seeing as NTs grasp these things nonverbally and with no need for clarification...

I go through this a lot, and with Auditory Processing Disorder on top of it, I may not always be hearing the same words that were spoken, so I expect to misunderstand. I cannot trust my verbal understanding. It cannot be depended upon. I have to ask for clarification. To guess wrong and then act upon that wrong guess is much more embarrassing than what may occur if I ask. I've done that plenty of times, and when that happens I feel like a perfect idiot.

But you talk as if NT's rule the world, and you as a result are afraid of being exposed as an inferior creature, but honey child you're just not. Of course I didn't grow up with the Aspie stamp on my forehead, so maybe that makes a difference.



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19 Jun 2009, 4:17 pm

Well, they rule all my jobs and keep firing me...

Janissy, I agree to every word. I discovered that a few years ago and told my therapist about it. These things become fashionable because someone brilliant saw someone brilliant gain something from saying them, then like clothes fashion they start being used by the less fortunate masses, and in the end they disappear.

I can even see some examples of these that have totally gone in and out of fashion, after going from the brilliant to the dull people:

1. "You must go with the flow!" A few years ago it was impossible to talk to someone without them giving this response to anything you said or did. Then the brilliant started saying "Dead fish go with the flow" and it quickly became obsolete as a consequence (21st century).
2. "Think positive!" (nineties, start of 21st. century).
3. Talking wonders about oneself - (late eighties, start nineties).
4. "Everything will be all right" - (mid-eighties)
5. "Don't worry, be happy." - (nineties?)
6. "If it feels good, do it." (seventies)
7. "It's not you, it's me." (nineties, early 2000)
8. "You have to be strong" (nineties)
9. "Take care!" (stubborn fashion, won't leave)


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marshall
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19 Jun 2009, 5:09 pm

Magneto wrote:
marshall wrote:
Magneto wrote:
Quote:
That's my interpretation of what she was probably thinking. NT's have a habit of making too many assumptions and then assuming that everyone will make the same assumptions as they do.

Surely that is demonstrative of lacking a Theory of Mind, as she is assuming that them other person will have the same thought proccesses as she does? Could it be that Aspies and Auties develop it later, but when we do it's a lot more advanced?

No. I think NT's often use the quick-and-sloppy "intuitive" version of ToM that gets the job done in some but not all settings. Because thinking about someone else's needs/desires comes as a natural habit to NT's they don't often actively observe their own thought processes with skepticism and critical analysis. Their ToM fails when they start projecting rather than using their intellect to analyze the situation in a self-honest way.

But still, just because all the swans you've seen are white it doesn't mean they all are. Especially if you've heard from reputable sources that there are lots of black swans out there.

They seem to be so used to it working that they deny it ever can't. So they don't really use ToM, it's just it goes undetected because most people think like they do. Aspies don't have that excuse, even among ourselves.

The problem is that it takes more mental effort to consider the possibility that a swan is black instead of white rather than treating all swans as if they were white. I think the NT brain is better wired to reduce the amount of effort needed for social interaction. It allows them to more easily concentrate on more than one thing and quickly shift focus.