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ruveyn
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18 Jun 2009, 1:34 pm

Michjo wrote:
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There is significant evidence of vote-rigging, actually, and Ahmadinejad won by a much larger margin than is plausible.

Says who? western media? the opposition who lost?

Everytime there is a vote in venezuela, american media and the opposition claim vote-rigging. European media and chavezista's claim the vote was fair.

I have very little faith in statistics these days, they are manipulated to agree with agenda.


The vote was by paper ballot and was counted way too fast to be believed.

In addition the spread was way out of proportion to polls taken prior to the election. If the ballots had taken a week to count and the spread was 45-55 the outcome would have been much more plausible.

Also the ballots were burned or otherwise destroyed mmediately after the count was announced. No recount is now possible. Hmmmm......


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18 Jun 2009, 1:48 pm

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Meanwhile, ordinary good natured folk in the U.S. and Europe, trained from youth to be "fair minded" make all the necessary excuses for the young hot bloods. They point to the "moderates" (who are extremely reluctant to call out the extermists in public, by the way) and say these are just plain folks. There is nothing wrong there. But there is a lot wrong. The "moderates" are willing to tolerate the brutal inhumanity of the extremists and not make a stink in public over it. Until the so-called moderates stand up and make a stink and publicly repudiate the extremists, there will always be young men who are dying (quite literally) to become martyrs. Ill at ease young males are the cannon fodder of militant Islam.

ruveyn


Actually, that is a fictional westernized ideology - the criticism that "I don't hear moderates in Islam criticize the radicals" is generally spoken by those who aren't listening ... can't read Arabic, can't be bothered to read news from Islamic countries that is English, don't listen to sermons in the mosques or discussions in cafes. Put your fingers in your ears and scream "La La La I can't hear you!!"

Here's an AP article I found in an English language daily from the Middle East ... not only are the violent extremists getting rhetorical opposition in Egypt, they are also routinely arrested and imprisoned, as much of such extremist activity is illegal. But hey, no need to let facts get in the way of ideology.

Quote:
Police arrest 25 more MB members

By AP
First Published: June 17, 2009

CAIRO: Police have arrested 25 more members of the Muslim Brotherhood, the country's largest opposition movement.

The state news agency reported Tuesday that the men were arrested in Beheira province north of Cairo for belonging to a banned organization and distributing its materials.

Police arrested the men while they were holding an organizational meeting in the provincial capital of Damanhour. They will be held for 15 days pending an investigation.

The Brotherhood, which holds a fifth of the seats in parliament, is officially banned but allowed to compete in elections as independents.

The arrests were the latest chapter in the government's long-running crackdown on the group. –AP



vibratetogether
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18 Jun 2009, 2:18 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Is the protesting throng in Tehran trying to overthrow the tyranny of the Imams or is it just bitching that the election was crooked?

If the Imams remain in power, then very little will change.

Women will still have to cover their heads with cloth bags and female babies will still be mutilated.

ruveyn


I would say there is the recognition by these people that there is a direct correlation between the Imams and the rigged election. Unrest will likely spill over past merely the election results, and the Imams will find themselves in the line of fire. It's a very complex situation over there right now, with things updating as we speak, I'd just keep watching and hope for the best.

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The issue is that it isn't just the radical wing of Islam that is a threat. Many of the so-called "moderates" are dangerous as well.


As I see it, moderate is a relative term. Those that actually are moderate to my standards are not a threat. Really, anyone that would seek to impose their religious will on others is an extremist. I know what you're getting at, but I see progress, and progress tends to lead to more progress. In a few generations, I think much of the Middle East will be moderate to my standards.

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Well then, this isn't an argument against Islamophobia, just a call to support people fighting for their freedoms. Of course that is a good thing.


It depends how semantically particular we get. This is not an argument against the fear of radical Islam, but a fear of Islam in general. I feel that the strength of the youth's desire for freedom shows a side of Islam that we need to recognize.

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my issue is not with the fact I am solely against islam, I am against the judeoislamochristain beliefs to start with


I'm with you there, but that's not something that's going to go away anytime soon. As such, we should support what positive elements come out of those religions. I love freedom, and these people also seem to have a desire for freedom, so more power to them imo.

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And how do we know the vote with rigged? There's absolutely no evidence the vote was rigged.


The results were announced in a ridiculously short time-frame, such that the votes could not possibly have been counted. Beyond that, it was the view that this would be a fairly close election, when the results claim a landslide. There is also a whistle-blower, who has subsequently been killed. With all that, I think it should be pretty clear to any reasonable person that the election was rigged.



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18 Jun 2009, 2:26 pm

vibratetogether wrote:
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The issue is that it isn't just the radical wing of Islam that is a threat. Many of the so-called "moderates" are dangerous as well.


As I see it, moderate is a relative term. Those that actually are moderate to my standards are not a threat. Really, anyone that would seek to impose their religious will on others is an extremist. I know what you're getting at, but I see progress, and progress tends to lead to more progress. In a few generations, I think much of the Middle East will be moderate to my standards.

Fair enough. I meant only to point out that there are things besides suicide bombers to fear from Islam, and there is a tendency to look only at the terrorists as a problem within Islam, thus ignoring other issues.


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18 Jun 2009, 2:35 pm

Orwell wrote:
vibratetogether wrote:
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The issue is that it isn't just the radical wing of Islam that is a threat. Many of the so-called "moderates" are dangerous as well.


As I see it, moderate is a relative term. Those that actually are moderate to my standards are not a threat. Really, anyone that would seek to impose their religious will on others is an extremist. I know what you're getting at, but I see progress, and progress tends to lead to more progress. In a few generations, I think much of the Middle East will be moderate to my standards.

Fair enough. I meant only to point out that there are things besides suicide bombers to fear from Islam, and there is a tendency to look only at the terrorists as a problem within Islam, thus ignoring other issues.


But you have to admit that there are still quite a few "ultra-Liberal" Muslims. Tangentially looking back at that earlier discussion (which has since fallen down the forum) where I referenced Tarek Fatah. Your comment on his successful intimidation by more conservative Muslims was accurate. But that doesn't mean he is a total anomoly, he managed to rally enough Muslims to form an association based on liberal Islam.

And let us not forget that a lot of more integrated, less feverent Muslims in the West are less vocal, so that the representation of Islam in the media is somewhat systemically biased.



ruveyn
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18 Jun 2009, 2:46 pm

Michjo wrote:
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There is significant evidence of vote-rigging, actually, and Ahmadinejad won by a much larger margin than is plausible.

Says who? western media? the opposition who lost?

Everytime there is a vote in venezuela, american media and the opposition claim vote-rigging. European media and chavezista's claim the vote was fair.

I have very little faith in statistics these days, they are manipulated to agree with agenda.


Let's see now. The election took place over a three day period in which something like 30,000,000 paper ballots are gathered. Then after the polls close 30,000,000 vote are counted in four hours? How do you figure that. It would take at least a week to count the votes and get the count certified by a set of count checkers.

ruveyn



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18 Jun 2009, 2:49 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
But you have to admit that there are still quite a few "ultra-Liberal" Muslims. Tangentially looking back at that earlier discussion (which has since fallen down the forum) where I referenced Tarek Fatah. Your comment on his successful intimidation by more conservative Muslims was accurate. But that doesn't mean he is a total anomoly, he managed to rally enough Muslims to form an association based on liberal Islam.

Yes, I don't have any problem admitting this is true.

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And let us not forget that a lot of more integrated, less feverent Muslims in the West are less vocal, so that the representation of Islam in the media is somewhat systemically biased.

Yes there are. I know at least one like that. But I also know too many Muslims who do not fall under that description. A certain militancy (not necessarily of the suicide-bomber variety) seems to be more the norm than the exception. Most of the Muslims I have encountered are very aggressive and confrontational about it, as well as being quite arrogant in some of their beliefs. From what I have seen, the typical Muslim in America is roughly equivalent to the fundamentalist wing of Christianity.


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18 Jun 2009, 2:58 pm

Orwell wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
But you have to admit that there are still quite a few "ultra-Liberal" Muslims. Tangentially looking back at that earlier discussion (which has since fallen down the forum) where I referenced Tarek Fatah. Your comment on his successful intimidation by more conservative Muslims was accurate. But that doesn't mean he is a total anomoly, he managed to rally enough Muslims to form an association based on liberal Islam.

Yes, I don't have any problem admitting this is true.

Quote:
And let us not forget that a lot of more integrated, less feverent Muslims in the West are less vocal, so that the representation of Islam in the media is somewhat systemically biased.

Yes there are. I know at least one like that. But I also know too many Muslims who do not fall under that description. A certain militancy (not necessarily of the suicide-bomber variety) seems to be more the norm than the exception. Most of the Muslims I have encountered are very aggressive and confrontational about it, as well as being quite arrogant in some of their beliefs. From what I have seen, the typical Muslim in America is roughly equivalent to the fundamentalist wing of Christianity.


It would be interesting to see if any other factors lead to that. While I do not know an enormous amount of Canadian Muslims, must I have met seem relatively liberal in their theology. Perhaps differences in immigration systems account for this.

I know of the three major Muslim organizations in Canada (The Canadian Muslim Congress, The Canadian Muslim Union, the Canadian Islamic Congress), two seem rather liberal (the Islamic Congress being the conservative exception).



Michjo
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18 Jun 2009, 3:11 pm

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Let's see now. The election took place over a three day period in which something like 30,000,000 paper ballots are gathered. Then after the polls close 30,000,000 vote are counted in four hours? How do you figure that. It would take at least a week to count the votes and get the count certified by a set of count checkers.

I could use a very similar arguement to claim any vote is incorrect.

It would be more prudent to ask questions. How many people were counting the votes, how were they counted? Where were they counted? What was the exact method in which the voting was carried out?

Another thing to consider is the fact that whoever wins this vote is nothing more than a public speaker/show piece anyway. The imams are the ones with the real power. Why on earth would the supposed vote-rigging need to take place? and even if it did, what has really been accomplished?



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18 Jun 2009, 3:14 pm

As a matter of fact, there may be some vary national-difference based reasons for our different perspectives of Muslims.

Survey on Canadian Muslims

Muslim Canadians Content



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18 Jun 2009, 3:16 pm

Michjo wrote:
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Let's see now. The election took place over a three day period in which something like 30,000,000 paper ballots are gathered. Then after the polls close 30,000,000 vote are counted in four hours? How do you figure that. It would take at least a week to count the votes and get the count certified by a set of count checkers.

I could use a very similar arguement to claim any vote is incorrect.

It would be more prudent to ask questions. How many people were counting the votes, how were they counted? Where were they counted? What was the exact method in which the voting was carried out?

Another thing to consider is the fact that whoever wins this vote is nothing more than a public speaker/show piece anyway. The imams are the ones with the real power. Why on earth would the supposed vote-rigging need to take place? and even if it did, what has really been accomplished?


Iran's votes are hand counted and have to be certified by the Supreme Leader for validation. They've always taken a few days to tally up the votes. For such an innovation in vote counting to occur for THIS ELECTION ONLY is unbelievable.

Plus, stating that the results are finally and uncontestable before the election indicates that something fishy was being planned.



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18 Jun 2009, 6:25 pm

Actually, I heard that the 'winner' declared victory before the voting was 2/3rds done...that does give one pause.

I can live with the Muslim world not caring about me...and so do many other Americans..;)

Iran's always been confusing, supposedly having a pro-Western contingent that's always 'just about to make a difference'. They scream 'death to America [btw...haven't heard it lately, is it just background noise, or have they stopped...now there's a story to shout from the rooftops] but right after 9/11, they held sympathetic candlelight vigils [our 'partners' in Palestine were literally dancing in the streets] )

I think that honestly, 2/3rds of Muslims are primarily concerned with providing 3 squares and a place to live for their families, and just don't have time to be anti-American. Of the remaining third, 2/3rds of them don't like us, but they're too busy getting ahead in the world and improving their situation in life to do more than mutter. Of the remaining third, 2/3rd of them would be willing to do something about us, but don't have the means or opportunity to do it.
It's the remaining (math majors, help me out..;) 1/27th that we really have to worry about.

Most Americans would just as soon get out of the Middle East. The rush for 'home grown energy solutions' ,and opposition to 'dependence on foreign oil', are as much xenophobic as anything else.

As repeated, we don't have to bother each other, I'll stay on my side of the planet...



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18 Jun 2009, 6:36 pm

pakled wrote:
Most Americans would just as soon get out of the Middle East. The rush for 'home grown energy solutions' ,and opposition to 'dependence on foreign oil', are as much xenophobic as anything else.

That's not xenophobic, it's a serious problem if we are heavily dependent on politically unstable regions of the world, and most of the world's oil-rich regions are unstable.


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18 Jun 2009, 10:29 pm

I'm really wondering if Shiites are the more positive force of the two divisions of Islam. I think this for a few reasons:

1) the Ayatollah Khomeinei had issued a fatwa against opression of Iranian Jews, very interesting choice of action

2) Mohammad Khatami as a liberal reformer had the support of the Ayatollahs

3) They're supporting yet another liberal reformer and his backlash against what either they feel is an unfair election or alternately they may think Ahmadinejad is dragging the country to suicide.

4) I'd already known that the Ayatollahs, particularly Grand Ayatollah Ali Al Sistani was very proactive in uniting the Shiites in aiding us in bringing peace to Iraq once Saddam was deposed.

Are there any Sunni cultures or regions with this record? I'm thinking places like Morocco, Indonesia, and what not are pretty inert in a lot of aspects - not sure what side of the coin they're on.