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fiddlerpianist
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01 Sep 2009, 10:29 am

Thank you, Inventor, for your very insightful comments. You have added quite a bit of reason and reality to this thread.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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01 Sep 2009, 10:55 am

This topic keeps reappearing, but the fact remains...we still don't know if Neanderthals were anything like autistics. They might have had very complex non verbal communication skills if their vocalizations weren't as sophisticated. They might have relied mostly on non verbal communication which would explain why their language and vocal range wasn't as intricate.
This would contradict the non verbal learning disorder found in autistics.



rdos
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01 Sep 2009, 11:34 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
This topic keeps reappearing, but the fact remains...we still don't know if Neanderthals were anything like autistics. They might have had very complex non verbal communication skills if their vocalizations weren't as sophisticated. They might have relied mostly on non verbal communication which would explain why their language and vocal range wasn't as intricate.
This would contradict the non verbal learning disorder found in autistics.


No, it wouldn't. NVLD is specific for NT-type of nonverbal communication. There is a rich flora of "stims"/"tics" that could very well have functioned like Hn nonverbal communication. These traits are also related to ordinary differences in nonverbal communication, like unusal facial expressions and unusual eye-contact.



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02 Sep 2009, 5:13 am

rdos wrote:
Human neurodiversity (unlike human culture) is not complex. All the neurodiversity-traits are related, and there is only one set of related neurodiversity-traits.


Here is something that can be tested, I think the Aspie Quiz does just that. The why of it is another subject. Other tests, Myers Brigs, so a range of traits, which held more or less, produce a personality.

I am happy with the range of humans, they do seem to fill roles that are needed. Perhaps that is why those roles exist. The total collection of traits produces this reality. This reality I do have a few problems with, but I am not a mainstream person.

What I said about about long divergent lines producing a sudden change holds, the evidence exists, only Moderns are left.

This could be accounted for by a single dominate gene spreading through the population.

This does not rule out subsets that have that, and more. A Modern and Neanderthal breed would have more, and if some spread it, those who stayed home would host the wider genome. Cro Magnon again, an expression of genes that did not last, and were only found in a small area.

In our old New Orleans color is well understood. I would say all American black people are half white, three quarters white is still dark skinned, quadroons, octaroons, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, were still considered black. Creole was measured by a brown paper bag, everyone lighter was considered French.

Half white would be enough to transfer dominate genes which would then spread through the entire population. African Americans seem to have more autism than Africans is one example. They would also get the boost of lines long divergent crossing. Look at professional sports. Blacks are not a minority there, or in music.

So the gene that caused Modern forms to cover the earth would work in a single dose. That still leaves lines of the orignal breeds to line breed the rest, the recessives, which would be lost in out breeding.

I do think there are Neanderthal recessives in some groups.

While all of Neurology is a set, groups do show different patterns. While it is often expressed as culture, it could have an underlying neurological basis.

The Aspie Quiz seeks a small minority, less than 1%, and it seems to work at that.

This is only one possible pattern, and all of the rest are not just NTs.

Most of the shoddy studies of the past seem to come up with at least a half dozen types in the Neurotypical line. Until the genetics of all of these groups are studied we have no way of knowing if in fact, while we all belong to a single neurological group, the sub sets keep starting wars for no real reason and killing millions, before they stop for no reason, and go back to business and sex.

It is the normal healthy mentally ordinary people who have caused the biggest and most expensive problems of the recent past. All study has been directed at a few defects, there are people who are just nuts.

The study of autism starts with Asperger saying they are different, but not nuts, and they can be useful. It was still an offshoot of the study of nuts.

The larger study of everyone who is not nuts has not happened. If we are indeed several patterns of Neurology, we have no way of knowing. Does the interface between a type 2 and a 4, start a business, and a 4 and a 7 a war?

We call some types Psychopaths, Sociopaths, but they do work well at parties, in office politics, and only a small percent kill people.

We have several populations that should be studied, millions in jail, the army, both kill people, one gets medals for it, the other life.

What we are soon coming to is a genetic test before birth that will project the entire possible life of the person.

I have Please Understand Me, Kelsey? It does work, but after type it says nothing about what a type member should do, should avoid, and such information would be useful.

We know we are not all the same, very few fit in the mental defective group. We need to study broader patterns.

DNA has some 6,000,000,000 possible combinations, the population of earth says there are duplicates being produced.

So we know there are six billion answers, so what is the question?

Is there a line with four billion on one side and two on the other?

Do I fit in some group of 873,000,000?

WP has shown me thousands who are in my group in some ways, few own motorcycles.

Psychology is the study of the defective, and it trys to expand the franchise.

Being as there are more Aspies than Psycholigst, and they started a fight, we can question the whole of human psychology.

I think the baseline we are seeking is the relationship between Genetics and Neurology, both are solid Science. Psychology reminds me of Freud, who faced with many women saying their fathers had sex with them as children, said they made it up out of penis envy, that they only wanted their fathers to have sex with them. He is the father of this recent religion, and he did have sex with it.

Genetics and Neurology can be peer reviewed, and tests like the Aspie Quiz can group the perception, thought process, of various groups. DNA tests, Cat Scans, and thought tests add up to real science.

I like the self sorting that WP has brought about, I would like to use my DNA code as my web address. Computers have given us a new world.



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02 Sep 2009, 5:27 am

ruveyn wrote:
Guys. Guys. We have no notion of how Neanderthals thought or felt. They did not leave many records.

ruveyn


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02 Sep 2009, 12:20 pm

mysticaria wrote:
rdos wrote:
There is no natural rule that says people in the south should be less well off. If genetics were identical, they should actually be better of because of a more productive echo-system. Additionally, if the OoA (out-of Africa) were correct, Africans should have higher diversity and more successful diversity, and thus should outcompete northerners. They do not do any of these, which leads us to believe that "everybody" is not of African ancestry, and additionally, that additional successful diversity must have been introduced in Eurasia by interbreeding.


Huh?
Umm... So you are saying black people are not genetically the same because they can't compete with us, that they must be "dumber" because they never figured out how to get out of the jungle and build complex civilizations and take over Europeans? Maybe thats because they were actually quite happy where they were and didn't see any reason to hop on a boat to the treeless cold barren landscape of europe?
The Africa today is not the Africa of the past. And- Egypt is in Africa, and they were better off that europe for sure.
I suggest checking out this
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... +and+steel

GUNS GERMS AND STEEL
presents some very good ideas about why europeans were able to prosper and tropical nations could not.

Do some more research before trying to convince others of your racist views.


True, take a look at the world map and you'll notice that most cultures who had prospered lived in hard environments and who were obliged to work hard in order to survive , such as Ancient Egyptians who had to prosper in technology and science in order to exploit the Nile and survive the desert, the Europeans who had to prosper in order to get food and survive the dire winters.

On the other hand, the indigenous people of Africa and America never prospered for centuries because they lived in warm forested lands, they were surrounded by food and water, they could get everything they needed to survive from the forests.They didn't have the motivation nor the need to prosper any further.

Sadly , that what made their lands as easy targets for the European crusades tho.



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03 Sep 2009, 3:24 am

And back to Neanderthal, they lived in a very cold world, next to a five kilometer wall of ice, most likely in a constant fog, and the food supply was migratory herds. They had to be thought hunters, sight did not work well, and they had to know what moon brought the herd that they could kill in close quarters with stabbing spears.

The first calanders show up there, they had a concept of time that was not needed in the south when food came with the rain and could be seen for long distance.

Time and Spatial Relationships were developed over 100,000 years, seeing the parts of things and the patterns. Much of what is tested for in IQ tests would be needed skills to live in their land.

The south edge of the wall of ice ran from London to the south of the Urals, it was a cliff five kilometers high, coming off of it was a mist that spread for several hundred kilometers, in this constant temprature, moist, filtered from the UV of sunlight, but lit by light reflected from the wall, very bright fog, plants grew like now where else. It was called the Mammoth Steppe, and nothing like it exists today. It was the most productive plant growth ever, and millions of animals migrated up and down with the seasons.

Visability was maybe a hundred meters. The only way to hunt was to know the time and path of the herds, and be within a few hundred meters at just the right time, or the herd passed in a day. It was also important to know when the Rhino, or ten thousand Bison, were passing, for if you saw a wall of thousands coming at you in the fog, you died.

It was this harsh reality that produced the Neanderthal mind, very complex thought. Time, Patterns, and when Moderns made contact, we have a burst of technology, weaving is complex thought. Gathering the wool, carding, spinning, making a loom, many hours of weaving, to make a thought product that may have been a year long thought in the making.

Moderns before that were hunter gathers living for today, as lpp says, for they could. They show no trace of long term thought, till they go into the fog of the Neanderthal, and then their skills spread quickly out over a lot of the world. They were the first people of the Mesolithic.

It all points to the forms of higher intelligence we still test for all coming from contact with Neanderthal.



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03 Sep 2009, 8:22 am

facinating, i love what youve written inventor, its so nice to not feel alone in the way i percieve the world...

Inventor,

do you think there may have been a huge range of divesity within the neanderthals themselves as they were found over such a huge range of enviroments? i saw a study where one antropologist thought that he found evidence for at least three divisable neanderthal sub groups, Europe, levant and central asia.

Also do you think theyre must have been other 'clever' and very regionally adpated Erectus sub-groups in asia? The East asians seem to have lot of hybrid and 'northern' adpated behaviour and features. do you think this was regional hybrisation with local asia erectus groups or by mixing with the already neanderthal Hybridised people from central asia or Turkic tribes through northen/eastern russia russia etc etc ? love to hear your perspective?



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03 Sep 2009, 9:21 am

Inventor wrote:

It all points to the forms of higher intelligence we still test for all coming from contact with Neanderthal.


The intelligence would have developed anyway due to the harsh conditions of the Ice Age. The choice was to live smart or die stupid.

ruveyn



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03 Sep 2009, 9:58 am

Yes, I like the idea that fog created some of the Hn adaptations. I think better hearing would also develop in such an environment, and also instinctual reactions to certain potentially dangerous sounds, like floods and the sounds of dangerous animals. Things we still se in Autistics. Autistics even like fog more than NTs. :wink:



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03 Sep 2009, 10:38 am

rdos wrote:
Yes, I like the idea that fog created some of the Hn adaptations. I think better hearing would also develop in such an environment, and also instinctual reactions to certain potentially dangerous sounds, like floods and the sounds of dangerous animals. Things we still se in Autistics. Autistics even like fog more than NTs. :wink:

You just made me remember that I wrote an essay on "why I like fog" in 5th grade. One of my reasons was, "because when you get close to it, it seems to disappear."


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04 Sep 2009, 2:25 am

The Ice Age is a maligned period. I would consider it more like the Pacific Northwest or the West Coast of England, Solway Firth.

One thing a five kilometer wall of ice did was block the north wind. It was a cliff because the southern face would melt, and mostly sublime, changing diectly from ice to vapor, a thick vapor that warmed as it came down and spread.

Streams came from under the ice, leaving ice caves, a constant just above freezing, good for storing meat, and most of outside would be close to fifty degrees, and warmer to the south.

For a few hundred kiometers it would be the perfect place for plants, moist, not hot, UV filtered out, and the bright reflector to the north giving double light.

The ground inversion layer would keep the very cold, or very hot and dry, well above the growing area, and several hundred by several thousand kilometers is a lot of pasture. There were Mammoths by the thousands, each eating two hundred and fifty kilos a day, Their half million kilos a day did not put a dent in the food supply. Bison, Elk, Rhino, Mastodon, Camel, Horse, deer, goats, Sheep, animals by the miilions. During the long ice age that ended about 40,000 years ago a good deal of the North Atlantic was dry ground, no English Channel, and the first open water was the deep channel that runs along Greenland, which was the only connection between the Arctic Ocean, and the rest of the oceans.

The climate of Siberia, and north to the Arctic, was ice free, milder than today. The rivers that now run north were mostly blocked by ice, so they flowed south, filling the Caspian Depression, connecting it with the Arial Sea, and the Black Sea. The Siberian Depression, formed a huge shallow lake that supported billions of birds. Just the Swans passing could turn it from day to night, for days as they passed.

The Mammoth Steppe was a climax ecosystem, every place was filled, and they converted plants to manure.

Animals grew huge. The Dire Wolf stood two meters at the shoulder, the largest bears nine meters when standing. A natural cross between lion and tiger, Liger, have been found in cave paintings, 400 kilos, five meters long. None were much compared to a ten ton Mammoth.

Neanderthal got to live there for over 100,000 years, Moderns came at the end when the ice was melting. There were two more short waves of ice, lasting only thousands of years, but the warming was the main climate, and that finished off the large animals and the Neanderthal.

From the same line as everyone else come Bud Sports that prospered in other places. One was the Mother of all who produced the straight haired version found in China and the Americas. This most likely happened about the same time Moderns were going into Asia. Each started with few and became the near total dominate line.

During the ice age the Suda Shelf was dry, southeast Asia out to Borneo, Samatra, everything down to a hundred kilometers from Australia. Here on islands African hair is found, Melanisians, but the mainland is all straight hair. It has all the signs of one very long fight.

The history of China says the First Emperor was a blond woman from the west, Chin Li. The coming of weaving, metals, pottery, was sudden, and just as sudden the development stopped, stagnated, and the same forms were made for thousands of years. As The Chinese put it, we cut off the root, and kept the top.

The Chin, for which China is named, became the dominate people, light skinned, moon faced, the breed race Chin Li started that then killed the root and kept the top. They took the Yellow River, and it's headwaters in West China show Europeans that had lived there a long time.

Old China was ringed by mountains, and north of them were the Mongols and Turks, They too mixed with the Europeans, and sided with them against the Chinese. North of them were another breed, light skin, red hair, gray eyes, one of which was the mother of Gengis Khan.

I have reports that the red haired grey eyed are still in Siberia, in the Altai mountains, and they are sought for their wisdom and fairness even today. It was an unreported center of great learning, to the Buddest, the source of all teaching is from the golden haired women of Shamballa, which they locate in the Altai Mountains.

Hunna means One, the Kipp Chak Huns were blonds, they came with the Golden Hoard and settled in eastern Poland, Latvia, Estonia, about 1300. The Turks took Turkey, Huns, light skinned, Hungary.

The Khanate that came out of that swept over Islam, and the Ottoman Turkish Empire ruled it for 1500 years.

The center of our recent culture seems to be Mother Russia. Balbor the Tiger took India, Mogal, Tammerlain, the middle east, and the center of business was the Stans, the Silk Road that controlled the China trade.

I see these Erectus breeds like dogs, there are African haired, black wavy hair, black straight hair, then red, blond, and browns in the north. Most have dark eyes, some blue, and there are some yellow eyed survivors in eastern Europe. Green, Hazel, and brown hair are a mix. Grey eyes are rare, green runs with red hair, and those groups seem to be from an unexplored line. The line keeps showing up along the north of other populations across Europe and Asia, and could well be a Neanderthal survival.

I cannot judge by recent European events, When they got boats and guns, 1500, they became pirates that looted the world. Their "Superior Culture" did nothing for the places they looted. The result is that after 400 years they have been driven out of China, India, Southeast Asia, Africa, South America is going Indian, and North America has a majority of non whites, that do not think well of the way things have been run. Genocide, Kidnaping, Slavery, massive theft, are not forgotten.

It may have made England rich for a few hundred years, but it left a lot of bad feelings. They wanted to be Rome, and they did, and Rome fell.

Longer term, some Cultural Agreements have lasted for thousands of years, and everyone prospered. They all have a few features that are lacking in the current era, Seers, Viseers, were as important as Kings. Where there is no vision the people perish.

The current game is Monopoly, eventually one person wns everything, and everyone else is bankrupt, and they still want to make a profit on their capital. The end is they destroy the Earth.

Native Americans were not dumb. They had a climax land, old growth forests, clean waters, lots of fish, game, and still lived lightly and moved often. The Earth owned them as it owned the fish. European capital stripmined the Americas for profit, and it is a drying, dying land.

The last of the great herds, the 90,000,000 Buffalo slaughtered for hides, 1870, and the land has been in drought ever since, and it is spreading. Rome left a wasteland that caused the people to die, and a long dark age to follow. 13,000 years of Native Americans improved the place.

I think these world views are genetic, and wise people seek those with a vision of a future.

I think I want to vote for the red haired grey eyed party.



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04 Sep 2009, 5:15 am

I love topics like this.

The thought of neanderthal influence intrigues me, though i vacillate in my beliefs.

One thing not mentioned is that the groups spoken of are so tiny and so historically remote, that it is entirely possible that there were additional divergent lines other than cro magnon and neanderthal. Absolutely no evidence of course, but its not an unreasonable premise.

I'd like to know more about the round incisor/spade incisor data point. I am white as white can be, and although my incisors are bladed at the tips, as I believe all humans are, they have a rounded knob on the back side. Is that how the Asian and North American teeth are?

A drawing of my teeth viewed on edge. knobs are pointing to the back of my mouth of course.
Image


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