If a 5 year old has Aspergers....

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janbiv2
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31 Jan 2006, 9:47 am

Wouldn't life with that child be more difficult than caring for an NT child?

Wouldn't he be obsessed wit something unusual and want to talk about that obsession a lot throughout the day?

Could he have had a severe language delay up until the age of 3 1/2, both expressively and receptively?

Would he have theory of mind?

Would he have good eye contact?

Would he understand how to get the attention of others appropriately (i.e. establishing eye contact first)?

Would he be able to hold normal back and forth conversation with others?

Wouldn't meltdowns be a common occurance?

Wouldn't he resist changes in routine?

Wouldn't he insist on sameness and routine?

Wouldn't holiday gatherings with family we only see a couple of times a year be stressful?

Wouldn't he insist on things being done a certain way and get very upset if not?

Would he be looking to share his accomplishments and joys and interests with others often?

Would he be more loving, caring and more concerned for parent's feelings than an NT child?



alex
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31 Jan 2006, 10:14 am

janbiv2 wrote:
Could he have had a severe language delay up until the age of 3 1/2, both expressively and receptively?


That's usually more common with high functioning autism (which is pretty similar to Asperger's).


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BeeBee
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31 Jan 2006, 10:29 am

Gezz!

I wrote a long detailed acoount of how my son was at 5. Then I accidently deleted it. :roll: :evil: :lol:

Anyway, as Alex said, the language delay is the only bugaboo in your list. The others are possible.

At five, my PDD son was easier to parent than his NT brother. He had good eye contact with family so I didn't see the lack when with teachers or others he didn't know well. He amused himself at family gatherings and it wasn't an issue. Now at 13, when he is expected to interact with family, it is. His meltdowns didn't begin until late elementary school. He never shared his joys with others but then I'm much the same way so I never gave it much thought. As even now, he is much more loving than his older brother. I think it has to do with his maturity level...a NT 13 year old is learning how to break away from parents...my aspie still wants to cuddle up.

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janbiv2
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31 Jan 2006, 11:17 am

alex wrote:
janbiv2 wrote:
Could he have had a severe language delay up until the age of 3 1/2, both expressively and receptively?


That's usually more common with high functioning autism (which is pretty similar to Asperger's).


So are you saying that all those behaviors I listed are typical Asperger behaviors except for the language delay?

What if a child has NONE of the listed behaviors, except for the language delay?

BTW, once language did start coming in around the age of 2 - 2 1/2, it came in normally. It was very communicative and appropriate. i.e. not echolalic, or repetitive, but meaningful and puposeful. I think that would rule out HFA right there, wouldn't it?



aspiesmom1
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31 Jan 2006, 11:25 am

janbiv2 wrote:
alex wrote:
janbiv2 wrote:
Could he have had a severe language delay up until the age of 3 1/2, both expressively and receptively?


That's usually more common with high functioning autism (which is pretty similar to Asperger's).


So are you saying that all those behaviors I listed are typical Asperger behaviors except for the language delay?

What if a child has NONE of the listed behaviors, except for the language delay?

BTW, once language did start coming in around the age of 2 - 2 1/2, it came in normally. It was very communicative and appropriate. i.e. not echolalic, or repetitive, but meaningful and puposeful. I think that would rule out HFA right there, wouldn't it?


I think with a 5 year old, it is much harder to tell. Many children with AS and HFA aren't diagnosed until closer to 3-5th grade. A 5 year old can have a much wider span of typical behaviors. That's why no doctor worth his/her salt would dx a child with add or adhd before at least 6 or 7.

At 5 a lot less is expected of children, socially and emotionally and so a 5 acting like a 3 isn't a real big deal. When they are 11 and still act like they are 7, it starts to get obvious.

The only real criteria our son met around the age of 5 for AS would have been his inability to understand personal space, and an up and coming issue with SID we didn't really see at that point. However, he had been riding his two wheeler with ease for a year.

I guess I'm saying, give it time.

Our son also had language issues. He didn't speak, then spoke in a language only I understood. We had intensive speech therapy and by 3.5 he was speaking well. He was diagnosed at that time with apraxia. He has an AS diagnosis at this time.


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janbiv2
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31 Jan 2006, 11:28 am

BeeBee wrote:
Gezz!

I wrote a long detailed acoount of how my son was at 5. Then I accidently deleted it. :roll: :evil: :lol:

Anyway, as Alex said, the language delay is the only bugaboo in your list. The others are possible.

At five, my PDD son was easier to parent than his NT brother. He had good eye contact with family so I didn't see the lack when with teachers or others he didn't know well. He amused himself at family gatherings and it wasn't an issue. Now at 13, when he is expected to interact with family, it is. His meltdowns didn't begin until late elementary school. He never shared his joys with others but then I'm much the same way so I never gave it much thought. As even now, he is much more loving than his older brother. I think it has to do with his maturity level...a NT 13 year old is learning how to break away from parents...my aspie still wants to cuddle up.

BeeBee


Ohhhh! I'm sorry you lost your whole post. That is so frustrating!!

Anyway, I think I am more confused than ever, but let me see if I can figure this out.

I understand that no two children with Aspergers will present exactly the same way. So while Susie may have poor eye contact, Johnnie's eye contact may be very good. And while Johnnie may have horrible meltdowns when his routine is changed, Susie may have a very even temperment.

But, can a child have NONE of the listed behaviors and still be Aspergers, and if so, HOW? What do all Aspies have in common that make them Aspie?

I know a lot of people have searched for a long time to find out what is going on with their child and have been given different explanations over the years. Then , finally they research Aspergers and say Aha! That is what is going on with my child. It all fits and now we can down to the business of giving appropriate help.

That is the problem with my son, except I am not getting that Aha! Try as I might, read and research all I want, I am not getting that "fit" between my son and Aspergers. However, I still haven't found something that does fit.



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31 Jan 2006, 11:58 am

You're right. Most of the parents here have gone around and around to get the correct dx for our children. From what you write, it doesn't sound like Asperger's or any of the other PDDs fits your son.

Its so frustrating as a parent.

I'm sorry but I don't remember your son's details....has he been seen by a developemental ped?

BeeBee



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31 Jan 2006, 12:00 pm

Hi, I remember one of the first things mentioned was how they take things literally, such as if you ask them to please"toss a salad", they will throw the bowl of salad.I refer to them as literally taking it as you say it.. My daughter doesn't understand knock-knock jokes and she is 16...I would wake her up with a "rise and shine" and she would prefer I not say it, as she doesn't want to rise and "shine". She would not want anyone to hold her, it would make her ballistic..she preferred to be alone upstairs while a gathering was downstairs.. I would also tell her, "I know you're in there"..There are just ways to see the unique perspectives...



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31 Jan 2006, 12:08 pm

Note: When I mentioned I would say, I know you're in there", I refer to when I was trying to make eye contact and receive verbal communication from her. I would sit her on the counter, hold her hands and try to reach her. It was agonizing to see her struggle with words, but I knew she was such a special child that needed to break free and just be ..herself.This all began when she was 2, and she also deals with developmental disabilities..The more I understand about autism , the more liberating it becomes...So many hopeful stories from these fellow members on this journey, whether it is their own self or their own child, or both dealing with this together....



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31 Jan 2006, 5:00 pm

I'm confused. In two posts you said:

janbiv2 wrote:
Could he have had a severe language delay up until the age of 3 1/2, both expressively and receptively?
janbiv2 wrote:
BTW, once language did start coming in around the age of 2 - 2 1/2, it came in normally. It was very communicative and appropriate. i.e. not echolalic, or repetitive, but meaningful and puposeful. I think that would rule out HFA right there, wouldn't it?

Was it 2 1/2 or 3 1/2? The docs usually differentiate between Kanner autism and Asperger autism at 3 years old, but a lot of people think that division is quite arbitrary because many children diagnosed with Kanner autism do go on to develop normal speech at a later age, and some people who develop speech prior to age 3 can seem to be more autistic in their presentation (lack of interest in others, etc.). This all serves the argument that since autism is a spectrum and people change as they grow older, it may be simpler to simply use the word "autistic" and then deal with the traits one at a time rather than trying to segment the population according to where on the spectrum the plurality of their traits are found on the day of the diagnosis.

Don't forget that there are other causes of language delay besides autism. If your kid doesn't otherwise appear to be autistic then maybe something else is going on.


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three2camp
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02 Feb 2006, 8:54 pm

At 5, my son was dx with ADHD - he did have poor eye contact, we frequently referred to him as *our little lawyer* and he pretty much taught himself to read. He could tell train engineers what cars were on their train.

But, he also had huge problems sitting still.

At age 5, he was *precocious* and argumentative (I wouldn't call him in sick to school unless he was really, really sick or he would use it against me - seriously!).

It wasn't until age 9 that some of that behavior was viewed by a psychologist as more than ADHD.

He walks on tip-toes all the time, he doesn't talk with us, he talks TO us. If he says something that someone will laugh at, he says it again. and again. and again. His favorite word is orthomimus (sp?) - type of dinosaur - he will say it over and over and over (stimming?).

He was still in diapers when he toddled over to the sink at a restaurant, slapped it, and said clearly, "Gramma, dis sink is abailable." Language delay was NOT an issue (his first sentence was at 13 months).

Asperger's and HFA are part of a spectrum and they now can see some of that with ($$$$$$) PET scans. His hyperactivity was environmentally based - I only just learned that now that he's 9 (that's why I can NOT take him to the grocery - all that visual *noise*).

Now, while he has a tremendous vocabulary, he really did try to *hit the hay* - even now, if I slip and say, time to hit the hay, he'll go to bed and punch his pillow. It's the nuance in language that he does not understand.

He began having uncontrollable meltdowns around age 3, but we just dealt with it. We did not know it was part of who he was. I would just gently straddle him on his bed so he couldn't hurt himself and wait until it was over. Then we would rock in a chair to reassure him it was alright. I had no idea what caused it or what else to do than love and persevere through it.

As you read more about spectrum disorders, you should hopefully discover that not all will hit on every single point. It's more an average of observable behavior. If you suspect, then go ahead, treat it as though he has it.

We have since learned that children are human too and the Golden Rule applies to them as well. We have seen remarkable progress with our son just by making him part of the family - we don't punish anymore - but as a part of the family, he will help or he will take care of himself. Natural consequences (don't clean up after yourself, then take your mess to your room and live with it there) seem to work and help show him his role within our family.



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03 Feb 2006, 1:33 am

I happen to have a 5 year old son that I am 98% certain has Asperger's, like me. Here is my perspective, but aspies are not identical- there's uite a bit of variation.

:arrow: Wouldn't life with that child be more difficult than caring for an NT child?

Actually, mine has been the easiest of all the children to raise. He is more mellow, quiet, gentle, and less demanding. He is truly a joy to have around.

:arrow: Wouldn't he be obsessed wit something unusual and want to talk about that obsession a lot throughout the day?

Ok, I'll grant this one. He's crazy about trains, especially Thomas the tank engine. At least it isn't something loud and violent, like Power Rangers! I don't mind his interest in trains.

:arrow: Could he have had a severe language delay up until the age of 3 1/2, both expressively and receptively?

Mine was less verbal, yes. When he did start talking, it tended to be in entire sentences and almost always when he wanted to, which was infrequently. MOstly he smiled to himself a lot and was observant or dreamy.

:arrow: Would he have theory of mind?

I don't know. The theory of mind thing confuses me. But when I think about it, do any 5 year olds have theory of mind? Do they realize that whacking another kid over the head hurts that kids feelings?

:arrow: Would he have good eye contact?

Mine doesn't have the best eye contact.

:arrow: Would he understand how to get the attention of others appropriately (i.e. establishing eye contact first)?

LOL....Mine has learned to to get his aspie mom's attention. Eye contact doesn't do it for me.

:arrow: Would he be able to hold normal back and forth conversation with others?

To a limited degree. He does this best if he is allowed to do a good deal of the directing of the conversation and it is about soemthign that interests him. Otherwise his replies will tend to be short and here won't be much follow-up. It's a simple lack of interest, not a lack of ability. I have noticed that he thinks a lot about something and then comes and talks to me about it.

:arrow: Wouldn't meltdowns be a common occurance?

I think it depends on the child. Mine is extremely laid back and off in his own little world a lot. He had a phase where he had meltdowns a LOT for several months, and for no apparent reason, and then they tapered off.

:arrow: Wouldn't he resist changes in routine?
Wouldn't he insist on sameness and routine?

Mine makes his own routines, but he isn't very insistent about anything as long as people leave him and his trains alone. He is a very ordered child. Maybe I humor him a lot, too. He is so pleasant that I tend to go along with his whims unless there's a good reason not to. For example, he always wants the three blankets that have cars or trains on them, and the train pillows. If I gave these to his brother to use, even once, I think he would freak. I can't see any reason to upset him that way, so I make sure he always has those blankets.

:arrow: Wouldn't holiday gatherings with family we only see a couple of times a year be stressful?

Don't know about him, but for me, even though I looked forward to the event, once it happened I tended to get migraine headaches or to feel sick and ended up sleeping in a dark bedroom somewhere. At the time it seemed like a drag- why did I always get sick when everyone else was having fun? Now I think it must have been the stress.

:arrow: Wouldn't he insist on things being done a certain way and get very upset if not?

Mine is only this way about a few, very select things and we make a routine of doing it the way he likes it, so this doesn't come up often. I don't remember being that way at all when young, but later on I was. Mostly I would get stressed, worried, cry, and so on.

:arrow: Would he be looking to share his accomplishments and joys and interests with others often?

Mine does. He brings me countless drawings of trains umpteen times a day. He also likes brigning me flowers when they're growing.

:arrow: Would he be more loving, caring and more concerned for parent's feelings than an NT child?

Mine is very sweet, but to be honest, I don't know how much he notices other people's feelings. He brings us a lot of joy, but I don't know that he does it intentionally. I think it is just that he is very pleasant and nice to be around. He seems a bit oblivious to how others feel.

His sister, by contrast, is also wonderful and pleasant, but she goes out of her way to try to win favor with us, to seek out praise, and asks us how we are feeling and how we woudl feel in given situations.



janbiv2
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05 Feb 2006, 8:53 am

I want to thank everyone with your help with this. Wouldn't it be so much easier if there was just a blood test for these different disorders???

THREE2CAMP and CHAMOISEE: I want to thank you both for taking the time to describe your children so well. I can't tell you how helpful this is to me. The only way I can truly understand what it is like to have an Aspie child is for the parent to explain fully to me what daily life is like with their child. Even though I understand that every child is different, it still gives me something to compare my child to, as well as things to look for in his behaviors. Thank you again.

If anyone else has any similiar description to share of their child around the age of 5, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks again,



nomoreality
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09 Feb 2006, 3:17 pm

Hello everyone,

Sorry, I don't think I've introduced myself in the right place first but I promise I'll do that soon. Life's a bit chaotic if you know what I mean!

I am a mum who has a 5 year old with AS.

From what I have seen and read, that label just seems to me to be some kind of a guide. It's a huge spectrum and we're all on it somewhere!! !

We've had some awful days and some great days. If the label helps your son, in the absence of anything better, use it anyway. Some parents just prefer to say "my child is on the autistic spectrum." Somehow I prefer this too. We all have to fight to be understood so somehow I think we belong together.

Me and my son are so close, so familiar to each other, we love and hate each other intensely. If I'd bought him off the shelf in a shop, the shelf would have been marked "luxury diva version." If he'd been born a middle eastern prince, no-one would have noticed. He's a mass of contradictions, but, yes, for better or worse, Asperger's feels like the right word for it. I hope you find your answer.



Court
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10 Feb 2006, 1:55 pm

Hi - my 10 yo son has AS. And I agree with the poster in the beginning that pointed out that the language delay was the only thing that didnt' fit (and was attributed to high functioning Autism). However, I'd like to point out an explanation on that...

My son was dx'd with AS. But upon further evaluation, dr's discovered he had language delay. They explained that that one detail made my son HFA, not AS. But when I explained that he had severe ear infections the first two years of life and ended up w/tubes in his ears, thus seriously affecting his language developement, the dr.'s basically explained that the difference between HFA and AS is a very thin line and basically only an academic one - that being the language delay. They officially decided to not even change his initial diagnosis of AS because they saw no need to unless - somewhere down the road he could get more services if he had the HFA dx.

I agree w/the other poster too who said it's a wide spectrum and we're all on it somewhere - a lot of these labels are separated by only a thin line of distinction and share so many similarities - no wonder parents (and even dr's) can get confused!



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21 May 2008, 10:42 pm

Court wrote:
Hi - my 10 yo son has AS. And I agree with the poster in the beginning that pointed out that the language delay was the only thing that didnt' fit (and was attributed to high functioning Autism). However, I'd like to point out an explanation on that...

My son was dx'd with AS. But upon further evaluation, dr's discovered he had language delay. They explained that that one detail made my son HFA, not AS. But when I explained that he had severe ear infections the first two years of life and ended up w/tubes in his ears, thus seriously affecting his language developement, the dr.'s basically explained that the difference between HFA and AS is a very thin line and basically only an academic one - that being the language delay. They officially decided to not even change his initial diagnosis of AS because they saw no need to unless - somewhere down the road he could get more services if he had the HFA dx.

I agree w/the other poster too who said it's a wide spectrum and we're all on it somewhere - a lot of these labels are separated by only a thin line of distinction and share so many similarities - no wonder parents (and even dr's) can get confused!


Yep, that is so true. My son is probably more HFA not actually aspergers. He never babbled and didn't really talk until 2 years 6 months. He didn't say "hi" or mimic waving until age 2 and that was very rarely. He is also very strong at nonverbal and still a little weaker and verbal, although the difference is becoming smaller. Interesting.