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TPE2
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10 Oct 2009, 3:50 pm

GreenGrrl wrote:
People with mild Asperger's Syndrome, how are you certain that you have Asperger's and are not just introverted or shy?
And how do you fit Criterion C of the DSM-IV-TR if you're mild, especially if you have a job and friends?
Quote:
C.The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.


Imagine that you are blind of one eye - your blindness will be 'mild' (compared with a person blind of both eyes) but can cause "clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning".



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10 Oct 2009, 4:31 pm

OP, did you ask the person that claimed to have Asperger's if they had an official dx? It's possible they were misdiagnosed as a child, or aren't diagnosed at all.



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10 Oct 2009, 4:45 pm

I'm still wondering why anyone would actually want to label themselves AS when they weren't. Are there any documented cases of people doing this for any reason? I could see people doing it on the net for a joke but not for long as jokes get old. Got to say I'm very skeptical that anyone would in real life. Stranger things have happened though.


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10 Oct 2009, 6:24 pm

Blindspot149 wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
Growing up, I tested as "introverted" and I was clearly shy. Nobody knew about AS.

I'd say the "difference" would be this.

You can grow out of introversion and shyness, but you will always have AS.

If you are introverted, that my always be your nature, but you can learn to be more outgoing and you will legitimately be more outgoing once you learn how to. It won't be a coping skill so you appear more like everyone else.

The same is so with being shy. Once you learn to overcome it, it ceases to be who you are.

A person with AS may be introverted and shy and likewise can overcome those factors to some extent, but where AS affects that person, they will always rely on adaptation skills and coping mechanisms to counteract the effects of AS. There will never be a permanent end to the AS symptoms...they only learn to more effectively manage them.

On other sites, some condemn me for my "self-diagnosis" claiming I'm just latching on to something because I want to excuse my bad behavior. Really? You think I choose to be awkward and have virtually no friends, loose out on job opportunities, be terminated from jobs, etc. because I like being this way? You think I haven't tried my best to "change" who I am so I'd fit in? I'm only 40 years old for Heaven's sake. It's not like I've only been trying to change for a few years. I'm pretty certain there is a cause for why my best efforts to "overcome" my awkwardness never seems to work.



Hi there,

I am just a few years older than you and newly self diagnosed.

I am working on managing my AS symptoms with adaptation skills and coping mechanisms (without medication) too.

I know that this is harder for some than others.

I am confident that I have the ability and in my case I really have no choice.

I really dont want to carry on feeling as weirdo for the rest of my life.

Just knowing that I have AS has been incredibly empowering for me.

That describes me pretty well, too, and I'm 41, coincidentally.



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10 Oct 2009, 6:47 pm

Good question, I know I'm not just introverted or shy because shy and introverted people don't stim, they don't have motor control problems, they don't have obsessions the way that people with autism do, they don't have trouble making eye contact or understanding body language... things like that.



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10 Oct 2009, 6:58 pm

Blindspot149 wrote:

I think the issue here is that people are NOT just a score on a checklist. The professionals refer to 'Spectrum' and there is a lot of room on the spectrum.

I would certainly count myself as one of the milder Aspies who happens to have a fairly high IQ as well.

I am not sure what clinical impairment is and it is possible that I would not 'pass the test' if I was lab rat tested but:

Socially I am not sure if I would describe anyone that I know as a friend and I am not especially comfortable in social settings (I am usually looking for an excuse to not go to a social event that I (my wife which therefore includes me :wink: ) am invited to :!:

BUT I can fake it and can APPEAR to be an extovert at times, particularly business related occasions (this is exhausting for me)

I am a self diagnosed Aspie who is working hard to overcome some of the 'typical traits'.

No doubt I would 'fail the test' simply for being aware of my condition AND having the will and ability to begin to overcome some of my traits.

All I do know is that;

AS explains entirely everything that has ever happened to me and how I have always felt


You answered for me. I fit in as mild but I believe this is only true because I am able to supress so many of my "quirks". I can play along with the best of them.


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11 Oct 2009, 12:10 am

GreenGrrl wrote:
People with mild Asperger's Syndrome, how are you certain that you have Asperger's and are not just introverted or shy?
And how do you fit Criterion C of the DSM-IV-TR if you're mild, especially if you have a job and friends?
Quote:
C.The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.


The 'clinically significant impairment' criterion is the biggest reason I doubt I'd be diagnosable with Asperger's Syndrome. So far, my autistic-like traits haven't really caused me many problems, though in different life circumstances it's possible that they would.

However, my autistic-like traits are clearly something different from mere shyness, and are enough that several other people have either explicitly suspected that I'm on the autism spectrum, or drawn comparisons between me and someone who is. I'm a little shy, but not extremely so, and that's not the most distinctive thing about me. Here are a few traits that are not related to shyness:

As one of my friends once put it, I'm, "very detail-oriented but often not about the most salient data". I am completely oblivious to a lot of things most people would notice, and notice odd details that most people don't.
I have greater-than-average difficulty telling joking from serious.
Friends tell me that I tend to be oblivious to social cues; I'm still not sure just what cues they think I'm oblivious to.

There are more too, but I won't get into them here.


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11 Oct 2009, 1:02 am

There is no such thing as Mild AS. The ASD spectrum covers the 4 most significant types of Autism. This fantasy that Asperger's has a spectrum all of it's own is ridiculous. If it were real then everyone could be labeled AS. You either HAVE it or you DO NOT have it. You can have symptoms of Asperger's without having Asperger's and there is a HUGE difference between those 2 circumstances.



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11 Oct 2009, 1:10 am

The full text on said criterion is this (from the expanded text of the DSM-IV-TR):

Quote:
The disturbance must cause clinically significant impairment in social adaptation, which in turn may have a significant impact on self-sufficiency or on occupational or other important areas of functioning (Criterion C). The social deficits and restricted patterns of interests, activities, and behavior are the source of considerable disability.


Professor (?) Baron-Cohen gives his interpretation of it in his Adult Asperger's Assessment thingy, which can be found easily enough.



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11 Oct 2009, 1:11 am

GreenGrrl wrote:
People with mild Asperger's Syndrome, how are you certain that you have Asperger's and are not just introverted or shy?
And how do you fit Criterion C of the DSM-IV-TR if you're mild, especially if you have a job and friends?
Quote:
C.The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.


I'm both introverted and have some autistic features, though I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say I'm fully autistic. However, even with just the traits I do demonstrate, I find myself to be somewhat impaired. As a matter of fact, the social aspects have recently caused me a great deal of trouble on the job. (Long story. I just got the worst performance eval and peer review of my career over an issue that I never even knew was brewing until it exploded in my face. Ultimately, it was over a social misunderstanding and too literal thinking.) I can hold a job, but I've discovered that I'm absolutely abysmal at managing people, which will severely limit any career regardless of my intelligence and competence in other areas. I have some friends, but I see them about once a year or so and we don't really keep in touch beyond the occasional short email. I'm in a graduate program and doing fairly well, but considering the way my fellow students blatantly cut me out of the group again today at a function, I'd say I've got some problems brewing there, too, and have no idea how to address them. I don't know if any of this falls under the heading of "clinically significant impairment" or not.



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11 Oct 2009, 1:39 am

ShogunSalute wrote:
There is no such thing as Mild AS. The ASD spectrum covers the 4 most significant types of Autism. This fantasy that Asperger's has a spectrum all of it's own is ridiculous. If it were real then everyone could be labeled AS. You either HAVE it or you DO NOT have it. You can have symptoms of Asperger's without having Asperger's and there is a HUGE difference between those 2 circumstances.


Frankly, I completely disagree. While AS does not have a differential scale of diagnosis, there is a wide range of how the condition affects different individuals, and the degree to which they have adapted or have difficulty in functioning. Yes, there are conditions which exhibit in a similar manner to ASDs - does that make the support of those who have similar problems taboo or inappropriate? Not in the least.


M.


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11 Oct 2009, 1:47 am

makuranososhi wrote:
Frankly, I completely disagree. While AS does not have a differential scale of diagnosis, there is a wide range of how the condition affects different individuals, and the degree to which they have adapted or have difficulty in functioning. Yes, there are conditions which exhibit in a similar manner to ASDs - does that make the support of those who have similar problems taboo or inappropriate? Not in the least.


M.


Of course not, but they should not claim to have the condition. They should come and say "I have problems which are very similar to AS such as 'this' and 'that' I'm here for support for these problems" Not "Hey I have mild aspergers."



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11 Oct 2009, 2:18 am

ShogunSalute wrote:
makuranososhi wrote:
Frankly, I completely disagree. While AS does not have a differential scale of diagnosis, there is a wide range of how the condition affects different individuals, and the degree to which they have adapted or have difficulty in functioning. Yes, there are conditions which exhibit in a similar manner to ASDs - does that make the support of those who have similar problems taboo or inappropriate? Not in the least.


M.


Of course not, but they should not claim to have the condition. They should come and say "I have problems which are very similar to AS such as 'this' and 'that' I'm here for support for these problems" Not "Hey I have mild aspergers."



This is a very interesting discussion.

ShogunSalute and I are both recently registered with about the same number of posts (thirty something)

ShogunSalute thinks/believes that if someone describes himself/herself as mild AS, then they AREN'T AS (and I certainly respect his opinion)

A Moderator (Makuranososhi) with over 4,000 posts to his name seems to disagree with his opinion.

I do note that of the three of us only ShogunSalute describes himself as diagnosed AS.

I also acknowledge that three opinions does not make a poll.


Mild of course is a subjective description.

There is nothing mild about the anxiety I feel when I know that I have once again worn out my welcome at some social gathering and there is nothing mild about my staring at the floor when I am talking to somebody (even when I really AM interested in what they are saying and actually do want to LISTEN to them :) ) and there is certainly nothing mild about my turning almost every conversation into a State of the Union address.

So my question to ShogunSalute is quite simple.

Please give us your definition of 'mild' and explain when you would recognise/acknowledge an undiagnsed Aspie as having AS and specifically what characteristics would result in you not recognising him or her?

Perhaps, in my case I have proved his point in that in fact there is nothing mild about my AS at all :!:

Maybe 'mild' is a delusional form of denial (which Tony Attwood includes as one of the four compensatory/adjustment factors used by Aspies?), which in my case is made worse by my relatively high IQ (meaning that I have to, at all times, be 'better' than 'the others' :wink: )

Either way I think this really is prime poll material and I will be starting that poll as soon as I hit 'submit'

Thanks for bringing this up ShogunSalute.



Last edited by Blindspot149 on 11 Oct 2009, 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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11 Oct 2009, 2:47 am

From what I've seen (inside and outside of this forum) people that claim to have 'MILD' AS seem to have some symptoms that relate to AS but are missing the critical elements that are required to be diagnosed (the core autistic traits). In my work I have seen people try to fake these elements in order to obtain the diagnosis they desire, it is easy to see through, especially people that fake stimming, it's almost funny. Just because someone suffers intense anxiety combined with starting at the floor when having a conversation does not = Aspergers (not saying you don't have it, just using your examples), alls it means is they have bad anxiety and look at the floor when they talk to people. It is what it is, however, if there are certain, specific elements that go along with these behaviors then it might be AS. Only professionals or the parents of severely autistic children are able to see these subtle differences. I am not sure exactly what your question was, but I have tried to answer it. I could say much much more but I am known for ranting and do not want to go on and on and on.

p.s. I just would like to add thanks to blindspot for not yelling at me or reporting my posts to moderators like everyone else does.



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11 Oct 2009, 3:05 am

The way I understand it, both extraverts and introverts can have AS, so in fact they are independent to each other.


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11 Oct 2009, 3:08 am

ShogunSalute wrote:
From what I've seen (inside and outside of this forum) people that claim to have 'MILD' AS seem to have some symptoms that relate to AS but are missing the critical elements that are required to be diagnosed (the core autistic traits).

Other than stimming, what constitutes a "core autistic trait" in your mind? How would you classify sensory issues that were noticeable yet not severe enough to be crippling to everyday functioning?


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