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GreenGrrl
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10 Oct 2009, 1:16 am

People with mild Asperger's Syndrome, how are you certain that you have Asperger's and are not just introverted or shy?
And how do you fit Criterion C of the DSM-IV-TR if you're mild, especially if you have a job and friends?

Quote:
C.The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.


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racooneyes
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10 Oct 2009, 1:34 am

I'd say I had it mild but I can't say I'm naturally shy or introverted. I fit into catagory 'C' too.

Is there any particular reason you're asking this Q btw?


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10 Oct 2009, 1:38 am

I grew up with lots of sensory issues, obsessions, and motor skills difficulties...While I have had lifelong difficulties with socializing..and I can be shy at times...I would not say that I am definitively shy...I used to be very bold...and often lacked boundaries...I would walk up to people and start talking to them at random when I was younger.

I do fit criterion C...am having trouble verbalizing exactly how.

I only have a few close friends and they are mostly on the spectrum...we are used to how we interact with each other and that is why we get along.
Most people are draining and overwhelming and very tiring to talk to.

I am currently self-employed...I had a really hard time getting and holding normal jobs in the past.



GreenGrrl
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10 Oct 2009, 1:45 am

racooneyes wrote:
I'd say I had it mild but I can't say I'm naturally shy or introverted. I fit into catagory 'C' too.

Is there any particular reason you're asking this Q btw?


I'm just asking, because introversion, especially a 'severe' INTJ personality could seem like AS.
There's a kid in my class at school who claims he has Asperger's Syndrome. He has friends, good eye contact and body language, and doesn't seem 'disabled' in any way, but he says that Asperger's means he 'can't interact with people' (although it does seem like he can)


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racooneyes
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10 Oct 2009, 2:13 am

Yeah I still can't get my head round why anyone would want to feign aspergers, what would be the benefit? Sympathy I suppose?

I'm just realising the shyness is definitley variable depending on who I'm with, what I'm doing and what the context is. If it's just me and a stranger I can chat away no problem, there'll be plenty of awkward or weird moments but I can usually fudge through them with a smile and changing the subject. Same when I'm with a mix of friends and strangers. If it's just me and a group of strangers I wont say much at all. Put me in a room with my mother and other people and I'll shut down entirely.

I had lots of friends when I was in school, definitely a social person. When school finished and they all went to uni I was left with none. Still managed to make a few in the following years but most were very low quality friends, you don't have the captive audience you have in school so it's really hard to make any at all and gets harder as you get older as people generally have more than enough by then and are weary of those who have none.

Never been able to hold down a job for long, couldn't hack further education, have 1 real life friend remaining and don't really know what's meant by 'other important areas of functioning.' :? If you'd known me when I was at school tho there's no way you'd have said I had aspergers or adhd for that matter.
This makes me think I've probably been getting slowly worse over the years or I just had zero self awareness which is just as likely if I'm honest. My sensory stuff seems to be getting worse too, crying in the street cos the sun is in your eyes is not cool. Not being able to speak on the phone if the tv is on is not cool. Neither is not being able to get the smell of the bin in my kitchen out of my nostrils.


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Last edited by racooneyes on 10 Oct 2009, 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Oct 2009, 2:22 am

I am interested in this subject, as the mother of my/our child does not even want to discuss the possibility that our 9 year old is in the spectrum. She sayes he is shy and introverted.

I am keeping very open, as what I feel is that it is so important to know early in life your 'natural way of being'..............I know well myself that comorbid conditions such as OCD, depression and complex anxiety disorders can result from 'pushing reality' under the carpit.

Chris


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10 Oct 2009, 2:34 am

GreenGrrl wrote:
People with mild Asperger's Syndrome, how are you certain that you have Asperger's and are not just introverted or shy?
And how do you fit Criterion C of the DSM-IV-TR if you're mild, especially if you have a job and friends?
Quote:
C.The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.



I have a professional diagnoses so that's how I know. Lot of aspies are shy I've read and I think it's because we are too afraid we might do something wrong or upset people. I am sure you have heard stories about autistic people trying to make friends so they are outgoing and keep hanging out with someone they like but instead he is coming off as a creep and the woman thinks he is stalking her because she could never tell him she wasn't interested in him and she wants him to hang out with her less.

Anyone can have friends but it's just harder for them to make friends at their age appropriate level. The trick is finding people who have something in common with you such as sports or video games and they have to accept you who you are.

At my work, I take things literal, I do not pick up on hidden meanings well and I need more clear instructions and not be expected to read between the lines or connect the dots. So there's my impairment there to the criteria. I have never had a job that involved working with people so I wouldn't know how well I do. But I did get massive complaints at my other job in Montana for my "rude behavior" all because I couldn't understand personal space. People couldn't even tell me I was standing to close or to move my cart. They expected me to read them or know their bubbles.
Face it, if you need accommodations the majority doesn't need, you are considered impaired and effected and it doesn't matter if you have friends or have a job.


I think that part of the criteria was made because of so many ignorant-judgmental people it's our fault. :roll:

Our condition be less severe if everyone accepted everyone and not expect things out of people like non verbal cues or eye contact, etc. and people were not judgmental just because someone is different. There, now lot of aspies would be more sociable and have less problems if more of those people were around.



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10 Oct 2009, 2:34 am

GreenGrrl wrote:
People with mild Asperger's Syndrome, how are you certain that you have Asperger's and are not just introverted or shy?
And how do you fit Criterion C of the DSM-IV-TR if you're mild, especially if you have a job and friends?
Quote:
C.The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.



I think the issue here is that people are NOT just a score on a checklist. The professionals refer to 'Spectrum' and there is a lot of room on the spectrum.

I would certainly count myself as one of the milder Aspies who happens to have a fairly high IQ as well.

I am not sure what clinical impairment is and it is possible that I would not 'pass the test' if I was lab rat tested but:

Socially I am not sure if I would describe anyone that I know as a friend and I am not especially comfortable in social settings (I am usually looking for an excuse to not go to a social event that I (my wife which therefore includes me :wink: ) am invited to :!:

BUT I can fake it and can APPEAR to be an extovert at times, particularly business related occasions (this is exhausting for me)

I dont know how close I was to suicide as a teenager but I do know what the sky looks like there; :(

Occupationally I went from job to job until I started working as an independent consultant.

I dont think I can hold down a traditional 'job' which certainly would be a severe impairment.

Shy NT's (and there are plenty of them) aren't labelled AS are they?

I have been married for a long time to someone who has more patience than I can even begin to imagine.

On reflection I am not sure what the quality of my life would be/have been if I hadnt been with her or indeed if it would have had any quality to my life at all.

Life is full of paradoxes.

Science has proved (with check boxes) that 'light' is composed of discrete energy parcels.

Science has also proved (with check boxes) that 'light' is a wave.

Science has also proved (with check boxes) that bees cant fly.

I am a self diagnosed Aspie who is working hard to overcome some of the 'typical traits'.

Whilst my job is well suited to someone who can focus intensely, it is also better performed by someone who can listen, converse rather than lecture and most definitely by someone who can maintain modest eye contact.

No doubt I would 'fail the test' simply for being aware of my condition AND having the will and ability to begin to overcome some of my traits.

All I do know is that;

AS explains entirely everything that has ever happened to me and how I have always felt

I am following a personal growth path (without any medication) based on this hypothesis

IT IS WORKING :!:

My quality of life is improving as I continue on this path.


I dont see the value in getting confirmation of the obvious and I see nothing but conflict arising from 'failing the AS test.

I will walk the walk and I am sharing this journey on my WP blog.



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10 Oct 2009, 2:58 am

GreenGrrl wrote:
People with mild Asperger's Syndrome, how are you certain that you have Asperger's and are not just introverted or shy?
And how do you fit Criterion C of the DSM-IV-TR if you're mild, especially if you have a job and friends?
Quote:
C.The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.



Well, criterion c doesn't necessarily mean that the person acts as though they are introverted or shy, so you can get people who appear extroverted and still have Aspergers. By "significant impairment", it means that there are problems with, say, relating to people or making social connections.

An extroverted Aspie can have as much difficulty as an introverted Aspie because they both lack an understanding of social cues, social reciprocity, and what is appropriate given the context.

I have friends and I have worked but I have problems with understanding social cues and I can accidentally come across as cold and unemotional to people. Luckily my friends are understanding and I also have developed enough awareness to catch myself before I appear in such a way to people.


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10 Oct 2009, 3:17 am

I don't know if mine is mild or not. Sometimes i feel like it's mild because i have a job working with people and i can have conversations that are sometimes very normal-ish with my coworkers. I usually try to be nice to other people, offer them food if i have food, help them with something(if they TELL ME they need help), and stuff like that.. And i can just generally give the outward appearance of being really normal a lot of the time. I can even go up and down with my voice, emphasizing words and such like other people do a lot of the time. Plus, i actually like talking to and doing things with other people when i can. Then other times i think about it and it seems like it must be severe because i don't have any close friends outside of my family and don't understand why not or how i could do things differently, i constantly feel confused at work and end up not understanding things that people expect me to unless i demand much more clarification than other people need, i overreact to things(in ways that are sometimes even self-harming), i can't multitask at work well at all, even the "normal" conversations i have end up being repetitive(something i probably talked about in the same way to someone else earlier that day), i stim A LOT, the only reason i feel like i can handle the very social job i have is that the socializing is structured and mostly question/answer, in a group of people i always feel very disconnected from the rest, my obsessive single-track mind prevents me from being anything resembling a well-rounded person most of the time, when i get into a conversation i often end up talking too much and going on and on about myself, and i have no idea what i would do if something happened to my parents and i was forced to be independent at this point. So, yeah. I have a job, but i definitely still think i have "clinically significant impairment" in how i function at work. I'm just lucky that most of my coworkers are pretty cool and have gotten used to my weirdness, so it usually works out ok. So, i mean, someone just having a job doesn't mean their functioning in that job isn't significantly impaired. But i don't know what people would consider me as... Mild, moderate, severe... Maybe a mixture in different areas. I know that AS has had severe effects on my life, but i don't know where there line between "mild" and "severe" is when i compare it to other aspies. :?

And i think the line between shy or introverted vs. aspie seems pretty clear. Being shy or introverted doesn't make one confused by the social things other people are doing and unable to understand how to "appropriately" interact. It also doesn't make one obsessive or repetitive.



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10 Oct 2009, 3:24 am

For me, it wasn't distinguishing autism from shyness that was the trouble; it was trying to tell the difference between autism and ADHD, learning disability, and sensory integration disorder. Oh, yeah, I'd never had any friends; but that wasn't social anxiety, just a lack of interest in people in general. The other stuff was always more prominent as a cause of dysfunction, since when you don't try to socialize very much, the social impairment really doesn't come into play. I'm not "mild AS" by anyone's definition (except maybe the people who say that anybody who can talk must be mild), so I think that just goes to show that the same thing happens all along the spectrum--you can be shy, outgoing, or just indifferent, but there's got to be more to it than that for a diagnosis of autism. Even "mild AS", on the borderline of diagnosis, will always have some kind of strong non-social trait, such as stimming or special interests or a need for routine, that distinguishes it from social anxiety.

Shyness isn't even a symptom of autism. And severe social anxiety in an autistic person is cause for a co-existing diagnosis of avoidant personality, social anxiety, or social phobia--not just something you assume is normal for an autistic person. It might be strongly indicated by their personality, or it might not be; but it's certainly been encouraged by repeated rejection early on, and that means you're looking at the usual genetics-and-environment combination of a problem that's psychological and not cognitive and in the same category as any other anxiety disorder.


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10 Oct 2009, 6:28 am

Asperger's is of course not merely diagnosable by being introverted/shy, but also by social skills deficits. However, these can of course also be caused by long-time little interaction due to introversion/shyness.

As for criterion C, having a job and friends doesn't mean you don't meet that criterion, if you have problems at your job or with friends.



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10 Oct 2009, 6:40 am

I think i have AS because when i first heard i could be autistic, it was someone else who told me and by that time i had no idea of the existence of As. In fact, when i read about autism i said "i have no speech problem, i am not autistic". But then i kept reading and i saw that the symptoms described me perfectly. Another thing is that i took the aspie quiz and scored 150.

As i have kept reading i found out that i wasn't crazy when a smell (that noone else perceived) bothered me or that i heard something nobody else heard, but anyway my parents and friends label me as crazy or quirky.

One thing that helps me is that i am in a Phd program, and i don't have the pressure i would have in another job. I have tried to fit in jobs but i haven't been able to keep them.

I really wish it was only shyness, that way i could work on it and get "better", but i know it will not happen.


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10 Oct 2009, 7:33 am

Growing up, I tested as "introverted" and I was clearly shy. Nobody knew about AS.

I'd say the "difference" would be this.

You can grow out of introversion and shyness, but you will always have AS.

If you are introverted, that my always be your nature, but you can learn to be more outgoing and you will legitimately be more outgoing once you learn how to. It won't be a coping skill so you appear more like everyone else.

The same is so with being shy. Once you learn to overcome it, it ceases to be who you are.

A person with AS may be introverted and shy and likewise can overcome those factors to some extent, but where AS affects that person, they will always rely on adaptation skills and coping mechanisms to counteract the effects of AS. There will never be a permanent end to the AS symptoms...they only learn to more effectively manage them.

On other sites, some condemn me for my "self-diagnosis" claiming I'm just latching on to something because I want to excuse my bad behavior. Really? You think I choose to be awkward and have virtually no friends, loose out on job opportunities, be terminated from jobs, etc. because I like being this way? You think I haven't tried my best to "change" who I am so I'd fit in? I'm only 40 years old for Heaven's sake. It's not like I've only been trying to change for a few years. I'm pretty certain there is a cause for why my best efforts to "overcome" my awkwardness never seems to work.



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10 Oct 2009, 8:17 am

zer0netgain wrote:
Growing up, I tested as "introverted" and I was clearly shy. Nobody knew about AS.

I'd say the "difference" would be this.

You can grow out of introversion and shyness, but you will always have AS.

If you are introverted, that my always be your nature, but you can learn to be more outgoing and you will legitimately be more outgoing once you learn how to. It won't be a coping skill so you appear more like everyone else.

The same is so with being shy. Once you learn to overcome it, it ceases to be who you are.

A person with AS may be introverted and shy and likewise can overcome those factors to some extent, but where AS affects that person, they will always rely on adaptation skills and coping mechanisms to counteract the effects of AS. There will never be a permanent end to the AS symptoms...they only learn to more effectively manage them.

On other sites, some condemn me for my "self-diagnosis" claiming I'm just latching on to something because I want to excuse my bad behavior. Really? You think I choose to be awkward and have virtually no friends, loose out on job opportunities, be terminated from jobs, etc. because I like being this way? You think I haven't tried my best to "change" who I am so I'd fit in? I'm only 40 years old for Heaven's sake. It's not like I've only been trying to change for a few years. I'm pretty certain there is a cause for why my best efforts to "overcome" my awkwardness never seems to work.



Hi there,

I am just a few years older than you and newly self diagnosed.

I am working on managing my AS symptoms with adaptation skills and coping mechanisms (without medication) too.

I know that this is harder for some than others.

I am confident that I have the ability and in my case I really have no choice.

I really dont want to carry on feeling as weirdo for the rest of my life.

Just knowing that I have AS has been incredibly empowering for me.



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10 Oct 2009, 3:50 pm

GreenGrrl wrote:
People with mild Asperger's Syndrome, how are you certain that you have Asperger's and are not just introverted or shy?
And how do you fit Criterion C of the DSM-IV-TR if you're mild, especially if you have a job and friends?
Quote:
C.The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.


Imagine that you are blind of one eye - your blindness will be 'mild' (compared with a person blind of both eyes) but can cause "clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning".