Isn't schizoid and avoident personality disorder Autism?

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beneficii
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24 Mar 2014, 12:51 am

I still seem to have strong schizotypal traits:

Quote:
Ideas of reference 7 out of 9 Unsure 0
Excessive social anxiety 4 out of 8 Unsure 1
Odd beliefs or magical thinking 3 out of 7 Unsure 0
Unusual perceptual experiences 6 out of 9 Unsure 0
Odd or eccentric behavior 5.5 out of 7 Unsure 0
No close friends 8 out of 9 Unsure 0
Odd speech 8.5 out of 9 Unsure 0
Constricted affect 4 out of 8 Unsure 0
Suspiciousness 8 out of 8 Unsure 0
Total SPQ-A 54 out of 74


I've also noted that I have a lot of the self-disorders as measured by the Examination of Anomalous Self-Experience. Some of these include experiencing my first-person perspective as being in the back of my head and looking through my head to the windows (my eyes) outside or up to my thoughts which appear at different points in my head; I also have the longstanding feeling of harboring a monster.

As that Danish researcher said, high levels of self-disorders may distinguish a schizophrenia spectrum person from an autism spectrum person.


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beneficii
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24 Mar 2014, 12:52 am

kicker, et al.,

BTW, if you do have low PPI, what are some of the ways it would manifest in your daily life?


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daydreamer84
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24 Mar 2014, 1:36 am

beneficii wrote:
kicker, et al.,


:lol:

beneficii wrote:
BTW, if you do have low PPI, what are some of the ways it would manifest in your daily life?


I'm not sure, maybe you wouldn't be properly attentive or alert to the stimuli around you? I didn't learn about it in depth.

In my neuro-psych class the prof was just talking about it as a potential endophenotype for schizophrenia. An endophenotype is something measurable that exists between the genotype and phenotype ,in a way, it's an observable trait that's closer to the genes because it's more measurable, physiological ect. It can help in genetic research because relatives of people with schizophrenia also have a low PPI response Endophenotypes are good for polygenetic (lots of gene) disorders like autism and schizophrenia . It would be like finding a measurable physiological response, like an EEG pattern, in people with ASD and people with BAP or relatives of autistics that could be used in research. Since the disorders are complex and many genes cause many traits and there might be different versions of the disorder with different etiologies , it's good to isolate a consistent measurable response in people with the disorder.



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24 Mar 2014, 3:55 am

beneficii wrote:
I still seem to have strong schizotypal traits:

Quote:
Ideas of reference 7 out of 9 Unsure 0
Excessive social anxiety 4 out of 8 Unsure 1
Odd beliefs or magical thinking 3 out of 7 Unsure 0
Unusual perceptual experiences 6 out of 9 Unsure 0
Odd or eccentric behavior 5.5 out of 7 Unsure 0
No close friends 8 out of 9 Unsure 0
Odd speech 8.5 out of 9 Unsure 0
Constricted affect 4 out of 8 Unsure 0
Suspiciousness 8 out of 8 Unsure 0
Total SPQ-A 54 out of 74


Which are common in autistic people.

Quote:
I've also noted that I have a lot of the self-disorders as measured by the Examination of Anomalous Self-Experience. Some of these include experiencing my first-person perspective as being in the back of my head and looking through my head to the windows (my eyes) outside or up to my thoughts which appear at different points in my head; I also have the longstanding feeling of harboring a monster.

As that Danish researcher said, high levels of self-disorders may distinguish a schizophrenia spectrum person from an autism spectrum person.


Perhaps.

Is there a link to that SPQ-A you took?



beneficii
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24 Mar 2014, 6:10 am

Verdandi,

Here you go. Note that if you're using Chrome you will need to mid-click or Ctrl-click the button when you're done:

http://schizotypaldisorder.webs.com/test.htm


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Verdandi
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24 Mar 2014, 6:17 am

Huh:

Quote:
Ideas of reference: 5.5 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Excessive social anxiety: 7.5 out of 8 (unsure: 0)
Odd beliefs or magical thinking: 3 out of 7 (unsure: 1)
Unusual perceptual experiences: 4 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Odd or eccentric behavior: 5.5 out of 7 (unsure: 1)
No close friends: 5.5 out of 9 (unsure: 1)
Odd speech : 8.5 out of 9 (unsure: 0)
Constricted affect: 7 out of 8 (unsure: 0)
Suspiciousness: 5.5 out of 8 (unsure: 0)
Total SPQ-A: 52 out of 74


I tried to find something to interpret the scores with. Still, kinda high there.

I haven't had a brain scan to test my "startle reflex" but I get extremely upset by sudden loud noises. I live with people who think that banging on the door to knock is appropriate and then get mad at me for being like "WHAT?"

Even so, I had someone who herself is schizophrenic point out that she thought I was displaying schizotypal traits, which I agree with. That there is overlap for autistic people to have schizotypal traits is something I wonder about. I made a thread about it on this forum some time ago, but I'm not sure that thread really covered the kind of ground I'd want covered now.



beneficii
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24 Mar 2014, 6:53 am

daydreamer84 wrote:
I'm not sure, maybe you wouldn't be properly attentive or alert to the stimuli around you? I didn't learn about it in depth.


What I read said that it represents a reduced ability to "habituate," that is, to block out stimuli that typical people would have already found irrelevant and would ignore, but in schizophrenia the gating is flawed and apparently you get hit with all this irrelevant stuff (which seems related to the concept of aberrant salience). In schizophrenia, poor PPI seems to also be related to other issues with blocking out irrelevant things, such as blocking irrelevant, unimportant (to you) thoughts while you are trying to concentrate on something, which reduced ability is called thought interference.

Maybe ask your prof how low PPI might impact somebody's life?


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kicker
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24 Mar 2014, 9:40 am

As much as I would be happy to continue this conversation prior experiences with you two have proved to be unproductive where any hint of psychology was used. May I suggest that if you have questions about your test scores you bring it to the attention of your respected therapist.



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24 Mar 2014, 12:43 pm

beneficii wrote:
daydreamer84 wrote:
I'm not sure, maybe you wouldn't be properly attentive or alert to the stimuli around you? I didn't learn about it in depth.


What I read said that it represents a reduced ability to "habituate," that is, to block out stimuli that typical people would have already found irrelevant and would ignore, but in schizophrenia the gating is flawed and apparently you get hit with all this irrelevant stuff (which seems related to the concept of aberrant salience). In schizophrenia, poor PPI seems to also be related to other issues with blocking out irrelevant things, such as blocking irrelevant, unimportant (to you) thoughts while you are trying to concentrate on something, which reduced ability is called thought interference.

Maybe ask your prof how low PPI might impact somebody's life?


Yes, you're right it does have to do with habituation, one sound sensitizes you so you're not as startled by the next sound, or you're not supposed to be. My guess was probably wrong. The class I took was two years ago when I was finishing my undergraduate degree. It was the last course I took for my degree so I don't have contact with the professor. His name is Walter Heinrichs and he teaches at York University in Toronto, Canada. His research interest is Schizophrenia. In fact he decided to devote half of his full year neuropsychology course to the disorder. I'm posting a link to his contact info that he has posted on a public domain. Maybe you could e-mail him. You can tell him that one of his students told you he talked about low PPI as a potential endophenotype for Schizophrenia but don't tell him my guess about how it would effect you - less alertness- because I think that was wrong and he didn't say anything about that. He seemed like a nice person but he might be very busy, Good luck.PROFCONTACT

Actually, post here if he does respond and tells you anything interesting, please.



beneficii
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24 Mar 2014, 1:06 pm

kicker wrote:
As much as I would be happy to continue this conversation prior experiences with you two have proved to be unproductive where any hint of psychology was used. May I suggest that if you have questions about your test scores you bring it to the attention of your respected therapist.


Have fun.


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24 Mar 2014, 2:32 pm

Quote:
Ideas of reference 0.5 out of 9 Unsure 0
Excessive social anxiety 3 out of 8 Unsure 1
Odd beliefs or magical thinking 0.5 out of 7 Unsure 0
Unusual perceptual experiences 1.5 out of 9 Unsure 2
Odd or eccentric behavior 4.5 out of 7 Unsure 1
No close friends 6.5 out of 9 Unsure 0
Odd speech 4.5 out of 9 Unsure 3
Constricted affect 6.5 out of 8 Unsure 0
Suspiciousness 3.5 out of 8 Unsure 0
Total SPQ-A 31 out of 74

It took 18 minutes to complete the test. Verdandi, may I ask how much time did you need to complete?

http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjour ... 5.full.pdf



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24 Mar 2014, 2:51 pm

beneficii wrote:
What I read said that it represents a reduced ability to "habituate," that is, to block out stimuli that typical people would have already found irrelevant and would ignore, but in schizophrenia the gating is flawed and apparently you get hit with all this irrelevant stuff (which seems related to the concept of aberrant salience). In schizophrenia, poor PPI seems to also be related to other issues with blocking out irrelevant things, such as blocking irrelevant, unimportant (to you) thoughts while you are trying to concentrate on something, which reduced ability is called thought interference.

"Thought interference" makes sense to me.

This may seem far-fetched but I strongly believe that having an overall better self-esteem (besides accepting difficulties) and having the ability to speak up for yourself helps a lot. If you are more in control, having a firmer grip on the steering-wheel, you will make mistakes, but eventually you'll arrive at a higher level of sense of responsibility and - voilà! - stability (which is highly desired).



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24 Mar 2014, 6:13 pm

OJani wrote:
It took 18 minutes to complete the test. Verdandi, may I ask how much time did you need to complete?

http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjour ... 5.full.pdf


Looks like about approximately seven minutes, since I posted seven minutes after beneficii posted the link.

But I'd been talking about this stuff with someone else, so it's been on my mind.

This talks about distinguishing autism from schizotypy:

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/gue ... chizotypy/

Formal thought disorder and autism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18297385

Differential diagnosis:

http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/7/4/310.full

Schizotypal is nearly halfway down the page.

A paper on ASD/schizophrenia comorbidity:

http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/113458



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24 Mar 2014, 6:14 pm

kicker wrote:
As much as I would be happy to continue this conversation prior experiences with you two have proved to be unproductive where any hint of psychology was used. May I suggest that if you have questions about your test scores you bring it to the attention of your respected therapist.


I was actually not replying to you at all, nor was I interested in any discussion with you. I was trying to respond to beneficii.



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25 Mar 2014, 4:19 am

kicker wrote:
As much as I would be happy to continue this conversation prior experiences with you two have proved to be unproductive where any hint of psychology was used. May I suggest that if you have questions about your test scores you bring it to the attention of your respected therapist.


You know, you would be a lot happier if you just got over this issue you have with them.

"This one time, people refused to just STFU and agree with me, so I'm going to follow them around whining FOREVAH!".


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25 Mar 2014, 6:28 am

Schizoid PD of childhood onset is probably the same thing as AS for the most part, but that label seems to have vanished.

Schizoid PD could probably be seen as an adolescent onset ASD of some kind, albeit usually milder.

Anyway, Wing put it as this in the penultimate AS paper in the west:

Quote:
Schizoid personality

The lack of empathy, single-mindedness, odd communication, social isolation and over-sensitivity of people with Asperger syndrome are features that are also included in the definitions of schizoid personality (see review by Wolff & Chick, 1980). Kretschmer (1925) outlined some case histories of so-called schizoid adults, one or two of which were strongly reminiscent of this condition, although he did not provide sufficient detail to ensure the diagnosis. For example, one young man had no friends at school, was odd and awkward in social interaction, always had difficulty with speech, never took part in rough games, was oversensitive, and very unhappy when away from home. He thought out fantastic technical inventions and, together with his sister, invented a detailed imaginary world.

There is no question that Asperger syndrome can be regarded as a form of schizoid personality. The question is whether this grouping is of any value. This will be discussed below in the section on classification.


She didn't put Avoidant PD as a differential.