Isn't schizoid and avoident personality disorder Autism?

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tangerine12
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15 Feb 2010, 6:30 pm

I'm pissed that DSM-V is deleting Asperger's. I guess I can't educate people about asperger's knowing it will soon be destroyed.

Anyhow while we're on the topic of eradicating asperger's, why doesn't DSM-V list schizoid schizoid and avoident and schizotypal and obsessive-compulsive and borderline and narcisistic personality disorders under Autism spectrum disorders as well.

Those were some wrong diagnosis labelled to me before the correct but soon to be deleted one.

You know, I'm thinking of getting myself diagonsed with avoidant personality disorder after they rid the world of asperger's



Callista
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15 Feb 2010, 6:42 pm

Oh, no, it won't be destroyed; it'll just be recognized as a kind of autism. The only change is in name, so there's actually no reason to be upset.

Personality disorders have very little to do with autism. Autism is a neurological disorder, for one thing. Personality disorders are the extremes of the normal personality traits, diagnosed when they begin to cause problems. Unlike autism, they don't affect thinking, learning, or perception to a huge extent.

Personality disorders do not involve repetitive behaviors, obsessive interests, sensory integration difficulties, delayed/odd language, or social skills delays; and they do not begin in childhood (personality disorders can only be diagnosed in adults or at the most older teens).

There are some minor similarities between the personality disorders and autism; but that's all they are--minor, very minor.

How do you mean to "get yourself diagnosed with" avoidant personality disorder? I thought the psychologist was supposed to make that decision! I mean, it's not like you just go up to a diagnosis-R-Us and place your order.


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tangerine12
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15 Feb 2010, 6:49 pm

Callista wrote:
Oh, no, it won't be destroyed; it'll just be recognized as a kind of autism. The only change is in name, so there's actually no reason to be upset.

Personality disorders have very little to do with autism. Autism is a neurological disorder, for one thing. Personality disorders are the extremes of the normal personality traits, diagnosed when they begin to cause problems. Unlike autism, they don't affect thinking, learning, or perception to a huge extent.

Personality disorders do not involve repetitive behaviors, obsessive interests, sensory integration difficulties, delayed/odd language, or social skills delays; and they do not begin in childhood (personality disorders can only be diagnosed in adults or at the most older teens).

There are some minor similarities between the personality disorders and autism; but that's all they are--minor, very minor.

How do you mean to "get yourself diagnosed with" avoidant personality disorder? I thought the psychologist was supposed to make that decision! I mean, it's not like you just go up to a diagnosis-R-Us and place your order.



The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines schizoid personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster A) as:[8]

A. A pervasive pattern of detachment from social relationships and a restricted range of expression of emotions in interpersonal settings, beginning by early adulthood (age eighteen or older) and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:

1. neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family
2. almost always chooses solitary activities
3. has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person
4. takes pleasure in few, if any, activities
5. lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
6. appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others
7. shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affect

Restricting it to after 18 is clearly artificial as there are children who display these traits.

Many so-called Aspies like Paul Erdos should be diagnosed with Schizoid



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15 Feb 2010, 7:41 pm

Callista wrote:
Personality disorders do not involve repetitive behaviors, obsessive interests, sensory integration difficulties, delayed/odd language, or social skills delays;


Well, OCPD involves repetitive behaviors, SPD and AvPD social deficits very similar to "social skill delays" and Schizotypal PD affects thinking and perception.

Quote:
and they do not begin in childhood (personality disorders can only be diagnosed in adults or at the most older teens).


I think it is a bit more complex; accordin to ICD, PDs "usually manifest since childhood or adolescence and continuing throughout adulthood" and according to DSM "its onset can be traced back at least to adolescence or early adulthood" (the bolds are mine) - apparently, thee is nothing, nor in ICD neither in DSM saying that PDs could not appear at childhood. I think they are only diagnosed at adulthood or late adolescence, not because they only can appear at these point, but because before that it is impossible to know if "the pattern is stable and of long duration" or if they "are deeply ingrained and enduring behaviour patterns" (after all, if we applied the criteria for PD to children, probably all children in the world could be diagnosed with something).



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15 Feb 2010, 7:45 pm

tangerine12 wrote:
Many so-called Aspies like Paul Erdos should be diagnosed with Schizoid


Paul Erdos, a schizoid? A guy who lived all his life visiting other people????



Callista
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15 Feb 2010, 8:24 pm

Quote:
Well, OCPD involves repetitive behaviors, SPD and AvPD social deficits very similar to "social skill delays" and Schizotypal PD affects thinking and perception.
Soo somehow the solution is to diagnose all of them simultaneously in the same person?

I did mention that most of them share one trait, occasionally two, with autism. There are none that have the entire autism picture. Very many disorders share one or two traits; the personality disorders are not unusual in that respect.

ex. Are bipolar disorder and ADHD the same thing? According to your reason, yes, because both involve hyperactivity.

Or, if you want a physical medicine example, lung cancer and pneumonia are the same thing because they both cause coughing and chest pain.


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15 Feb 2010, 8:34 pm

Because some conditions can share superficial or apparant or actual over-lap there is an order of precedence to diagnosis.

Autism should always be explored before Personality Disorders. If there is no Autism and symptoms are present then they can be looked at as potential indicators for some condition such as a Personality Disorder. However, if Autism is present, then symptoms should only be considered potentially indicative of another disorder if the symptoms are not explained by Autism.



Matterik
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13 Jun 2010, 1:03 am

Interesting to read this. I myself have austistic traits and OCD. That is I am helped by repetition. I have noticed that I can listen to the same song over and over again and get life quality out of it. This I guess is something common with autistic people.

I have diagnosed myself basically as schizotypal/autistic traits/OCD. This means that I am long term unemployed and not helped by society.

Also I had obsessive compulsive behaviour when young.

Anyway I think it is the right approach to look upon a diagnosis from a autistic perspective as soon as autistic traits can be found. This was not done with me, I consider myself to have been mistreated by psychiatry when I had a depression. They put me on neuroleptics for 8 months.

Anyway I am still alive.

In Sweden people with autistic traits only dont get help much. You have to have something more to get a diagnosis, like autistic traits and ADHD or asperger. There are long waiting times in Sweden unless you are suicidal. Which I am not.

Anyway finding out that I have autistic traits have been something positive for me. Because I have been very scared of psychiatry and society simply because that they mistreated me.

But once they put autistic traits on me they also marked me down as a social deficit and removed my source of income when I refused to lift.

I am scheduled for an asperger test at psychiatry. I am going to try to take up a lot of things with them. I am 38 years old. To see if I can get any help from them, not drugs of course. Maybe they could put something on me like PDD-NOS or make some diagnosis out of autistic traits and OCD or give me an asperger diagnosis. Meanwhile the unemployment office together with the state insurance is allowing me to work with data-registration in the public sector for like 600 euros a month. So I wont starve to death.

Also once they put you down as a social deficit with autistic traits you might also get problems with the social services if you take care of children here in Sweden. I know one guy who had asperger. They took his child permanently.

In my case they filed something with the social services that they were worried about my daughter since I needed care. This was exactly what they did with this asperger guy also. The point being that they refused to say what kind of care I needed or in what way they were worried. Anyway it all resulted in that my daughter is moving to her mother. So in Sweden I think if they find autistic traits in the caregiver parent, then they might remove the child from that parent. This all has to do with social steering and social control and how the Swedish socialized society is constructed.



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13 Jun 2010, 4:28 am

Its not getting destroyed its just being re-catagorised into a high form of autism, the only difference is that it will be called 'Aspergers Autism' instead.

And also Schizoid and avoident personality disorders are not connected to autism whatsoever.



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13 Jun 2010, 11:16 am

Leekduck wrote:
Its not getting destroyed its just being re-catagorised into a high form of autism, the only difference is that it will be called 'Aspergers Autism' instead.

And also Schizoid and avoident personality disorders are not connected to autism whatsoever.


You are correct in that Aspergers is getting re-listed & not being done away But I think Schizoid & Avoident personality traits can be related to AS. People with AVPD avoid social relationships because of major anxiety issues. Aspies are also prone to having anxiety issues & some Aspies do avoid social relationships cuz of anxiety over rejection. I've been officially diagnosed as Schizoid personality instead of AS even thou I fit the other main AS characteristics(I avoid eye contact, I have obsessive interest, I take things literally ect). I got diagnosed as Schizoid thou partly because I fit 6 of the DSM IV checklist. #4 about taking pleasure in few activities; I may not fit. I think Schizoid & AVPD symptoms can be caused by Aspergers. I may be wrong about this but I think the DSM V could be getting rid of Schizoid disorder & would be diagnosing certain symptoms of it instead. All those symptoms can co-exist with Aspergers thou so maybe it would be worth it to get retested


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Last edited by nick007 on 13 Jun 2010, 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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13 Jun 2010, 11:22 am

Personality disorders have everything to do with neural dysfunction.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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13 Jun 2010, 11:30 am

tangerine12 wrote:
Callista wrote:
Oh, no, it won't be destroyed; it'll just be recognized as a kind of autism. The only change is in name, so there's actually no reason to be upset.

Personality disorders have very little to do with autism. Autism is a neurological disorder, for one thing. Personality disorders are the extremes of the normal personality traits, diagnosed when they begin to cause problems. Unlike autism, they don't affect thinking, learning, or perception to a huge extent.

Personality disorders do not involve repetitive behaviors, obsessive interests, sensory integration difficulties, delayed/odd language, or social skills delays; and they do not begin in childhood (personality disorders can only be diagnosed in adults or at the most older teens).

There are some minor similarities between the personality disorders and autism; but that's all they are--minor, very minor.

How do you mean to "get yourself diagnosed with" avoidant personality disorder? I thought the psychologist was supposed to make that decision! I mean, it's not like you just go up to a diagnosis-R-Us and place your order.



The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines schizoid personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster A) as:[8]

A. A pervasive pattern of detachment from social relationships and a restricted range of expression of emotions in interpersonal settings, beginning by early adulthood (age eighteen or older) and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:

1. neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family
2. almost always chooses solitary activities
3. has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person
4. takes pleasure in few, if any, activities
5. lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
6. appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others
7. shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affect

Restricting it to after 18 is clearly artificial as there are children who display these traits.

Many so-called Aspies like Paul Erdos should be diagnosed with Schizoid


For one thing, the autism criteria in the DSMs are applied to children, while the personality disorder criteria are applied to adults. It could be, in children, what looks like a personality disorder might actually be autism and the child needs to see a diagnostician or a neurologist to find out what's really going on.



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13 Jun 2010, 11:58 am

Matterik,

I'm very sorry to hear you're having such difficulties and that they think that Autistic traits would make someone a bad parent. That isn't fair.

Things in the USA are pretty horrible too. I've got a son with a similar list of potential diagnoses and I'm not sure we really understand what's going on with him.

He was always different but his dad didn't want him diagnosed. Eventually, as a single mom, I got him evaluated. The psych. put did extensive testing and decided he had ADHD (which my whole family has) and Asperger's. Then some months later he had his first psychotic break. The Dr we were going to for ADHD treatment diagnosed him with psychosis-pdd and at some point bi-polar disorder. At this point it's looking like it may be schizotypal bi-polar disorder, if not schizophrenia. I'm wondering if AS was ever right.

His options here in the US are very bleak. He gets a lot of services at school and is served through an AS program even though his AS isn't any problem at all, it's the mood stuff that interferes with his education. Next year they will have to put him out of that program and into one for more troubled kids, which is very sad because he's such a sweet boy and not angry and violent like those kids, but there is no other option.

There aren't any treatment programs outside of a few cities in other regions, where we don't happen to live. When he is cycling badly he can be dangerous to himself or others, not on purpose, but he gets so confused he's accidentally started fires, or knockes someone down because he thinks a bee will sting him and doesn't see the person. He's a very gentle and kind person and would never hurt someone on purpose, but sometimes he's delusional and doesn't know what he's doing. His bio father won't allow him to visit him anymore, and wants nothing to do with him. When he's cycling he needs 24hour care but it's not available. If I had a lot of money I could hire someone, but I don't. Our insurance won't pay for enough of it, and there are no state programs. If he had Down's Syndrome there are programs and group homes, but for this kind of thing, nothing.

I hope you can find some answers and get the support you need.



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13 Jun 2010, 12:30 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

For one thing, the autism criteria in the DSMs are applied to children, while the personality disorder criteria are applied to adults. It could be, in children, what looks like a personality disorder might actually be autism and the child needs to see a diagnostician or a neurologist to find out what's really going on.


But my doubt is if that make sense - after all, I imagine that today, three people with exactly the same present symptoms could be diagnosed, one with SPD, other with AS, and other with HFA, according to the age when the symptoms become apparent.

But there is any utility in giving different labels to people with the same symptoms, only because of difference that they had in the distant past?



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13 Jun 2010, 12:38 pm

TPE2 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

For one thing, the autism criteria in the DSMs are applied to children, while the personality disorder criteria are applied to adults. It could be, in children, what looks like a personality disorder might actually be autism and the child needs to see a diagnostician or a neurologist to find out what's really going on.


But my doubt is if that make sense - after all, I imagine that today, three people with exactly the same present symptoms could be diagnosed, one with SPD, other with AS, and other with HFA, according to the age when the symptoms become apparent.

But there is any utility in giving different labels to people with the same symptoms, only because of difference that they had in the distant past?


Only if one dx is caused by genetic factors and one is more environmental. That might lead a person to make different reproductive choices, if they felt they didn't want to pass on those genes. Not everyone would care as not everyone would feel it would make a difference in their decision to have biological children. If the treatment is the same I can't think of any reason it would matter.



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13 Jun 2010, 12:44 pm

TPE2 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

For one thing, the autism criteria in the DSMs are applied to children, while the personality disorder criteria are applied to adults. It could be, in children, what looks like a personality disorder might actually be autism and the child needs to see a diagnostician or a neurologist to find out what's really going on.


But my doubt is if that make sense - after all, I imagine that today, three people with exactly the same present symptoms could be diagnosed, one with SPD, other with AS, and other with HFA, according to the age when the symptoms become apparent.

But there is any utility in giving different labels to people with the same symptoms, only because of difference that they had in the distant past?


A personality forms throughout childhood.

Let's say, during your adolescence, you withdrew into yourself and lost interest in friends, but it only lasted a few years, then you became more social and made friends. Would it be fair to label yourself with a personality disorder just because of a phase you went through as a teenager? This is why the psychotherapist doesn't diagnose the personality disorder in children and teens.

Past the age of eighteen, supposedly, your personality is formed. The older you get, the more rigid your personality becomes. Older people have a tough time changing because of this and people say they are "set in their ways".

Autism is apparent at a young age, around three or four, when the child has a speech delay, or isn't interested in making friends.

Symptoms can overlap and some Aspies can use a personality to compensate for being autistic when older. Aspies have personalities. Some may be really outgoing, they compensate this way, while others compensate by avoiding. Some may be introverted, some extroverted. Some might seek to connect with people through intellectualism or a special interest, while others withdraw into their special interest. prefering to explore it alone.
They still have the neurological difference, but they have learned to cope through a personality, just like NTs develop a personality in order to do the same thing: cope.


The autism is a difference in neurology.

The personality is differences in coping styles.
It makes sense.,