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A-markz
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21 Apr 2010, 10:30 pm

I've been reading about Asperger's for several weeks now. I've read a good deal about the diagnostic criteria and common symptoms. I was wondering if anyone here knew if there are any signs that indicate that the problem is not Asperger's? Any red flags used to rule Asperger's out?



sinsboldly
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21 Apr 2010, 11:03 pm

Knowing all about Asperger's and realizing you don't have the criteria would be my first guess.



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21 Apr 2010, 11:07 pm

If you can walk into a a room full of people you don't know, have no difficulty initiating and maintaining a conversation with any of the other people, maintain good/comfortable eye contact the whole time, and pickup on subtle non-verbal queues like flinting - then you probably don't have AS. :-)

That's probably not helpful, but I tried.

[joking]
Oh... and if your right foot is bigger than your left foot, then you don't have AS.
[/joking]



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21 Apr 2010, 11:32 pm

You have to exclude stuff that would cause the same symptoms.

Ex. Kid who had a lot of early neglect. Has problems forming relationships and stims a lot. You'd need to rule out reactive attachment disorder.

Kid with a stutter and social anxiety; ostracised at school. You'd need to rule out social phobia.

Impulsive kid who's always saying the wrong thing in social situations and constantly fidgets... Rule out ADHD.

Three year old who isn't talking... rule out simple speech/language disorders; rule out deafness and auditory processing issues; rule out mental retardation...

Lots of stuff can look like autism, but isn't; and to complicate matters, a lot of the same stuff can coexist with autism too.

You really need to know a lot about psychology and neurology in general to tell the difference... though learning it is possible.


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Sound
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22 Apr 2010, 2:37 am

j0sh wrote:
If you can walk into a a room full of people you don't know, have no difficulty initiating and maintaining a conversation with any of the other people, maintain good/comfortable eye contact the whole time, and pickup on subtle non-verbal queues like flinting - then you probably don't have AS. :-)

What if you can do it, because you have practiced, and it's still difficult? Such would be my case, although a Neurologist has diagnosed me as on the spectrum.
...Although I wouldn't be able to maintain eye contact quite enough, no way.



alana
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22 Apr 2010, 3:50 am

Sound wrote:
j0sh wrote:
If you can walk into a a room full of people you don't know, have no difficulty initiating and maintaining a conversation with any of the other people, maintain good/comfortable eye contact the whole time, and pickup on subtle non-verbal queues like flinting - then you probably don't have AS. :-)

What if you can do it, because you have practiced, and it's still difficult? Such would be my case, although a Neurologist has diagnosed me as on the spectrum.
...Although I wouldn't be able to maintain eye contact quite enough, no way.


I wonder if the difference would be, if you enjoy it or not. LOL. I mean, I'd personally rather drive spikes in my eyeballs but...I know what you mean that you get better at this stuff by practicing. I can't do the above (I don't even know what flinting is, for example) but I know there are people here who probably could. Even if I could perform well at it I would rather sit home and play dictionary tag or something.



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22 Apr 2010, 4:46 am

Do I enjoy it? That's a complicated question...

It's all a bit uncomfortable even now, and definitely tiring, but I put up 'the face' in social situations in order to gain the benefits of it, certainly not because I enjoy the situation unto itself.

I do enjoy hanging out with 2 or 3 close friends, but the enjoyment diminishes precipitously with the introduction of new people, necessitating the adoption of 'the face.' I mostly only do the social dance to maintain some modicum of social normalcy, and more importantly to prevent the deterioration of comfort outside of those strenuous situations. It's a preventative measure, now that I think about it.

As for flirting, I enjoy succeeding at it, because it reasserts that I've overcome a massive challenge in my life, and gives me a sense of power. And I like girls in general, so I like the opportunity to interact, from that perspective, despite discomfort and strain.

Since we're on the topic, be careful of using knowledge of flirting as a criteria. For me, it comprises a large bundle of specific behaviors that I was illustrated, one by one, until eveeeeeentually a pattern was evident. 8 years ago, I could not identify what constituted flirting if I saw it. 5 years ago I sometimes knew when I was seeing it, sort of(never if it was directed at me though). 3 years ago, I was copying the behavior in a rigid, un-nuanced fashion. And now, the behaviors and ideas link together in a broader, logical framework. It's not innate, or intuitive, but there is a rhyme and reason behind it, and the correct action for a given moment can be logically divined(if not immediately).

The difference between then and now represents a lot of effort. Along with that acquired knowledge, I'll also usually get mentally exhausted after a longer period of time than I used to.



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22 Apr 2010, 6:54 am

alana wrote:
(I don't even know what flinting is, for example)


Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to say flirting.



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22 Apr 2010, 8:13 am

I have an ex-boyfriend who a few people thought was autistic. I knew for certain he was not. He displays none of the symptoms, other than a lack of empathy and selfish behavior. He has no sense of how his actions will impact others, and only things of himself when making a choice. Other than that, he's perfectly normal. By now I'm pretty certain he's a legitimate sociopath. He certainly fits all the criteria for that...


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A-markz
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22 Apr 2010, 9:57 am

Thanks for the replies. I understand, of course, that if the criteria isn't present, than the problem isn't Asperger's. I just didn't know if there was anything that is used (when most of the criteria is met) to rule it out. I read a post a few weeks ago about someone who was certain that she had it. She went to get a diagnosis and the psychologist told her she read people too well. She fit most of the other criteria, but she was able to read people too well to be considered aspie.



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22 Apr 2010, 10:26 am

A-markz wrote:
Thanks for the replies. I understand, of course, that if the criteria isn't present, than the problem isn't Asperger's. I just didn't know if there was anything that is used (when most of the criteria is met) to rule it out. I read a post a few weeks ago about someone who was certain that she had it. She went to get a diagnosis and the psychologist told her she read people too well. She fit most of the other criteria, but she was able to read people too well to be considered aspie.


All the literature I've read states clearly that with AS being a SPECTRUM disorder, no two people who are on the spectrum will be alike. One person might exhibit some symptoms more than the next person.

Doesn't it seem dangerous, then, to rule someone out on the basis of the absense of ONE ASPECT of Asperger's or ASD?

Doesn't it seem more responsible to measure people on the basis of all the characteristics and the impact they have on daily living to determine if a person is on the spectrum? Then determine what point on the spectrum a person is on (Autistic, AS, PDD-NOS, etc.) and the intensity with which one has that disorder/dysfunction.

Some of the criteria in the DSM require a certain number of criteria to be met.

I went through the criteria and was like, "Yep, that's ME...that's me...OOOO and THAT'S me, TOO!" Then I got depressed because even if it's not AS, something's wrong.



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22 Apr 2010, 10:35 am

Sound wrote:
j0sh wrote:
If you can walk into a a room full of people you don't know, have no difficulty initiating and maintaining a conversation with any of the other people, maintain good/comfortable eye contact the whole time, and pickup on subtle non-verbal queues like flinting - then you probably don't have AS. :-)

What if you can do it, because you have practiced, and it's still difficult? Such would be my case, although a Neurologist has diagnosed me as on the spectrum.
...Although I wouldn't be able to maintain eye contact quite enough, no way.

The keyword in j0sh's post, and your reply, was "difficulty". His postulate is that if you can walk into that roomful of people and have no difficulty in striking up and maintaining a conversation with a random person in the room, keeping "appropriate" eye contact the entire time, then you probably don't have AS. You noted that while you can do some of this after a great deal of practice, there is still difficulty doing it. Ergo, an ASD is not ruled out in your case.


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22 Apr 2010, 1:17 pm

A-markz wrote:
Thanks for the replies. I understand, of course, that if the criteria isn't present, than the problem isn't Asperger's. I just didn't know if there was anything that is used (when most of the criteria is met) to rule it out. I read a post a few weeks ago about someone who was certain that she had it. She went to get a diagnosis and the psychologist told her she read people too well. She fit most of the other criteria, but she was able to read people too well to be considered aspie.


Oh god, that's horrible... That reminds me of what happened to me on monday haha. I went to get diagnosed, though apparently the secretary misunderstood me, so they just set me up with a therapist, so I still haven't gotten an official diagnosis. Working on that.
The woman I was sent to told me that because I am able to spontaneously point out or show others things I'm interested in, she was "on the fence" about whether or not I have Asperger's.
I wanted to yell at her hahaha. I was like that as a child, but clearly adults are not the same as children, and she was acting as though one needs to meet every single criteria to be diagnosed. You only need 3 from group A, 1 from group B, and 1 from group C. The fact that I meet all of them but two (I also have friends, so apparently my peer relations are developed normally for my age group, regardless of the fact that I didn't make steady friends until high school) was enough for her to question me.
I'm never going to a non-specialist again :(


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22 Apr 2010, 1:20 pm

Callista wrote:
You have to exclude stuff that would cause the same symptoms.

Ex. Kid who had a lot of early neglect. Has problems forming relationships and stims a lot. You'd need to rule out reactive attachment disorder.

Kid with a stutter and social anxiety; ostracised at school. You'd need to rule out social phobia.

Impulsive kid who's always saying the wrong thing in social situations and constantly fidgets... Rule out ADHD.

Three year old who isn't talking... rule out simple speech/language disorders; rule out deafness and auditory processing issues; rule out mental retardation...

Lots of stuff can look like autism, but isn't; and to complicate matters, a lot of the same stuff can coexist with autism too.

You really need to know a lot about psychology and neurology in general to tell the difference... though learning it is possible.



That's how things are supposed to be done and that's what my shrink did when I was 11 and 12 before finding out I may have AS.



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22 Apr 2010, 2:55 pm

wendigopsychosis wrote:
A-markz wrote:
Thanks for the replies. I understand, of course, that if the criteria isn't present, than the problem isn't Asperger's. I just didn't know if there was anything that is used (when most of the criteria is met) to rule it out. I read a post a few weeks ago about someone who was certain that she had it. She went to get a diagnosis and the psychologist told her she read people too well. She fit most of the other criteria, but she was able to read people too well to be considered aspie.


Oh god, that's horrible... That reminds me of what happened to me on monday haha. I went to get diagnosed, though apparently the secretary misunderstood me, so they just set me up with a therapist, so I still haven't gotten an official diagnosis. Working on that.
The woman I was sent to told me that because I am able to spontaneously point out or show others things I'm interested in, she was "on the fence" about whether or not I have Asperger's.
I wanted to yell at her hahaha. I was like that as a child, but clearly adults are not the same as children, and she was acting as though one needs to meet every single criteria to be diagnosed. You only need 3 from group A, 1 from group B, and 1 from group C. The fact that I meet all of them but two (I also have friends, so apparently my peer relations are developed normally for my age group, regardless of the fact that I didn't make steady friends until high school) was enough for her to question me.
I'm never going to a non-specialist again :(


About meeting the DSM criteria...there are many points that mirror what I've said. I think this is the best statement of all because it addresses the DSM directly.

And I, too, have friends but it goes deeper than the level of apparent symptoms (friends or not, etc). In my case, if it had not been for the friends I have making the extra effort to get to know me and understand me, we likely wouldn't have friends at all.

I remember one guy in particular. We used to catch the same bus at the same stop. I had seen him elsewhere in the city, too. Well, one day he strikes up a conversation with me. I sort of respond, but he keeps going with it. Eventually we get to the point where we hang out on a daily basis. But if it was up to me, I wouldn't have ever carried conversation that far. He asked questions and kept it going.

One thing, though: he did seem to notice that there was something "different" about me. Once he asked me if I was abused as a kid. But he never, ever treated me any different or made me feel as if I was "socially odd."

I also have friends in recovery, but these, too, are people who took an interest in me. If the situation depended on me to keep things going, there would be no friendship because I do not comprehend how to fully demonstrate that type of interest. And yes, this ineptitude has caused some problems, but because of the nature of friendship in recovery I have had enduring friendships. Still, there are times when it's difficult just trying to maintain a conversation or be part of a group conversation.

It's really important to look further than the obvious.



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22 Apr 2010, 3:19 pm

When I went through the indicators for females I was astounded to see that I fit every one of them except the thing about having cats (allergies). It was a huge revelation to me. In some areas I did not even realize I was different and in some that I did realize (motor issues) I just kept trying harder and harder and thinking I was such a loser. Finding out about AS gave me "permission" to give up on that stuff that JUST ISN'T going to work for me and put my energy toward things that may.