no clue socially, or just unable to express?

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Dots
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21 May 2010, 4:33 pm

Do Aspies have no clue, socially, or do they just process and express social situations differently?

The reason I'm asking is that I've switched therapists recently. I've seen this woman a few times and today I brought up that I thought I had Asperger's. She said something like I wasn't an obvious case. I took this to mean that she doesn't agree with me. What I should have said was that just the fact that I'm female means I'm not an obvious case.

We spent the session going over my social difficulties. I told her of my difficulties with eye contact and touch and also that as a child I ignored other children. She knows I don't make a lot of eye contact with her. We talked about how to make friends and that you start with small talk and she gave me examples of small talk. I talked about how sometimes I'm lonely but sometimes I don't mind that I have very few friends. Some things she said made me feel more like an Aspie, such as when I mentioned that I do talk to people when I'm talking about musical theatre and she commented that you don't just go up to people and start spouting facts at them.

But at one point we were talking about small talk and she said something about how when you sit next to someone in class, you could ask them about what movie they've seen recently and I spoke up and said "Would you really ask someone that?" And she said good point, and then said that I have the right instincts when it comes to being social, but that I just don't know how to express them. That felt un-aspieish. I felt like she was telling me I wasn't Aspie.

So here's my question. If I have the right social instincts, but am unable to express them does that mean I'm just really shy and not an Aspie at all? How much stock can I put into what this woman says? I have more Aspie traits than just the social ones. Either way, I relate more with this community than I ever have with another.


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21 May 2010, 4:50 pm

Um, I'm not sure, but when I read the part in which she asked you about asking someone about a movie they have seen recently, I thought: Well, I would just ask them: "What movie have you seen recently?", duh. Um, why wouldn't you ask someone about that?



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21 May 2010, 4:54 pm

She was using it as an icebreaker, and I just felt like it was a weird thing to use as whatever comes after 'hello' to a person you didn't know.


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21 May 2010, 4:55 pm

Its just too random to ask.

It needs to fit in the situation or else its weird.



astaut
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21 May 2010, 5:02 pm

I think that everyone has an area that they are stronger/weaker in and this just might be one of those areas. I'm probably stronger socially as an aspie (strong point), but I don't really have special skills or anything (weak point).

I can't really comprehend the not expressing your social instincts. I have instincts but I take too long deciding whether I should do something or not (whether I should say something, etc) that I miss the opportunity. I think saying you have the right instincts but express them inappropriately makes more sense (or express them differently than others).



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21 May 2010, 6:02 pm

It's that common mistake of looking at the DSM, then looking at an adult who recognizes themselves and their entire life in the descriptions, and seeing only the adult as they are now. I think a lot of Mental Health professionals who have little experience with Autism make this mistake - of trying to apply an assessment list written to spot AS in children, to an adult who has had years to learn to mask behaviors that we have learned slowly and painfully are not acceptable socially.

A neurotypical child realizes instinctively that every social interaction has a rhythm, a syntax - certain rules that apply in order for the interaction to 'read' logically. They get that there's a certain minimal amount of small talk that must be made in order to 'set up' or 'lead in' to a more substantial conversation, some irrelevant common ground that establishes whether or not the interaction is even going to proceed.

"Boy, it's hot today"
"Man, I hate getting caught in the rain"
"Cool shoes"
"I smell barbecue"

Something innocuous that can be responded to, or smiled at and politely ignored. That jumping right to specific personal interests like "Hey, what kinda movies do you like?" is slightly intrusive and awkward in it's bluntness. You don't just walk up and lead with that, or everyone in the room will move away from you and give you the stink eye. It's weird, clumsy and annoying. Neurotypicals pick this stuff up fluidly from the time they start to walk. Nobody teaches it, they just sense it and automatically 'know'.

We don't. We have to learn it by making humiliating mistakes or at least seeing some other poor slob make the same humiliating mistake - often several times, before it starts to sink in that that is not the way things are supposed to be done. In a child you can see immediately when they haven't yet picked up on what's appropriate. By the time one reaches the age of 26, you've learned to handle yourself a little better than that, and I think that's what throws some Mental Health professionals off - that we don't behave like Aspie children are supposed to behave. Well, duh. :roll: We have a learning disorder, we're not stupid.



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21 May 2010, 6:22 pm

I have a very hard time, with small talk.


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dyingofpoetry
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21 May 2010, 6:31 pm

I was a 100% textbook Asperger's child, but that was not a possible diagnosis then. So, as Willard pointed out, I grew up and learned how to mask much of my external behaviors. The autistic behaviors that I could not mask, I just kept hidden as much as possible.

I learned to hide some (the echolalia, stimming, etc.) due to the bullying and ridicule. I learned to modify some (poor social skills, sensitivity) thanks to the need to hold a job and support myself.

However, in both categories, it's a struggle. I come home exhausted and stressed... and so I stim like crazy in a small dark room for a while until I feel leveled out. But the point is that as an adult trying to get a diagnosis, I felt stuck between making a conscious attempt to drop everything I learned and risk looking like I was faking it, or just behave as I do now with the knowledge I have and not appear at all an HFA.

What I decided to do was to explain the above dilemma to my psych doc from the beginning. It helped a lot... (it always helps to remind your doctor that you're not ret*d :wink: )

But my difficulty socializing is in having no idea at all how to interact. It is as if I am surrounded by people who live in a foreign country and culture and I don't know what to say to them without first observing and then imitating. Once I begin communication, I feel very uncomfortable. The longer that they talk or the more I am expected to make chitchat, the more I want to get away by myself. Also, if I do have something important to say or contribute, although I might feel fine, NTs find my social expression to be awkward, unclear, or over-technical. So, it is really a little of both in my experience: no clue and inability to express


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Last edited by dyingofpoetry on 21 May 2010, 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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21 May 2010, 7:04 pm

I say it's a matter of experiencing social situations differently. However, many people seem to think a different way is automatic a wrong way. It's like they expect you to act in a certain way and if you don't, act all shocked and surprised. On the note of therapists, while I haven't dealt with one yet that felt I wasn't autistic in some way, I'm sure it would be annoying as hell for them to think you're not an Aspie because you don't fit some of the stereotypes. I had that happen with something else unrelated to Asperger's. I do remember one time a therapist thought I was low functioning autistic because I got a low IQ score on some test. I was feeling tired and burnt out from a two hour trip. She also thought that I wasn't angry based on my facial expression although I actually was.

Is Asperger's really that alien to therapists that don't specialize in it? It's been like what, since 1994 since it was official? I thought therapists were supposed to keep up with this and not get lost as soon as someone doesn't completely match the textbook example. As for asking someone about what movie they seen recently, I too think that's just out there for small talk.


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Dots
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21 May 2010, 7:16 pm

She's big on not labeling people too, so I also had that going against me. I don't know how much she knows about AS, but she seemed to know something. I'm not sure, I couldn't tell. She didn't go "what's that?" I tried to explain to her that I was able to talk to her because we were talking about myself. I can talk about myself. I feel selfish when I can't make conversation because all I'm thinking of is myself.

I have for sure learned some social rules along with how to force eye contact and let people touch me. I've learned not to stim around people. It tires me out, yeah - I told my sister that forcing eye contact made me tired and she laughed at me.

Dyingofpoetry, I know what you mean about wondering whether to just let it drop. I don't know what my therapist thinks of me not making eye contact with her - I haven't made good eye contact all along, but I don't want her to think I'm faking it. I've not got a diagnosis from a doctor yet, and after such experiences I wonder whether I should pursue it - if I'm not coming across as AS to her, what if my doctor shoots me down, too?


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Last edited by Dots on 21 May 2010, 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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21 May 2010, 7:17 pm

dyingofpoetry wrote:
But my difficulty socializing is in having no idea at all how to interact. It is as if I am surrounded by people who live in a foreign country and culture and I don't know what to say to them without observing and imitating. Once I begin communication, I feel very uncomfortable. The longer that they talk or the more I am expected to make chitchat, the more I want to get away by myself.
That describes very well how I feel as well. I don't have many Aspie traits, but my social communication is terrible. I am somewhat able to appear pleasant by being polite, but I know "politeness" because it's one of the few social interactions that actually has a kind of script: hello, thank you, how are you etc.

I get really stumped by the subtleties, like knowing how and when to smile, how to react, what to say and how jovial it should be. It's exhausting to try to keep track of how to be. I don't even like to go outside because I will have to say hello to my neighbor, and if I'm too friendly or enthusiastic when I mention how nice the weather is, it will come off as weird, and if I'm not friendly or enthusiastic enough it will come off as rude, to the point he might think I have a chip on my shoulder. Aargh! :D

TheDeviantOne wrote:
Is Asperger's really that alien to therapists that don't specialize in it? It's been like what, since 1994 since it was official? I thought therapists were supposed to keep up with this and not get lost as soon as someone doesn't completely match the textbook example. As for asking someone about what movie they seen recently, I too think that's just out there for small talk.
Most therapists know absolutely nothing about AS, and if they do they still know nothing about Aspie grown women, because we don't present typically.



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21 May 2010, 7:22 pm

I'm unable to express interest in such small things.


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21 May 2010, 7:30 pm

That was one moment where I actually made the therapist stop and think how to answer. She wasn't sure what to say - She was talking about small talk and saying things to the classmate sitting next to you like "Have you had this professor before?" or "Are you taking other psych classes?" etc, and I said "Are you just supposed to fake interest? I'm not really interested in that." She didn't know what to say in response to that one.


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21 May 2010, 9:19 pm

Dots wrote:
That was one moment where I actually made the therapist stop and think how to answer. She wasn't sure what to say - She was talking about small talk and saying things to the classmate sitting next to you like "Have you had this professor before?" or "Are you taking other psych classes?" etc, and I said "Are you just supposed to fake interest? I'm not really interested in that." She didn't know what to say in response to that one.
Hmm... approaching small talk in a rational way like that is an Aspie trait. Maybe that's why the therapist didn't say anything after that. It probably made her wonder if you do have Asperger's, after all.


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21 May 2010, 9:47 pm

No clue here, except for the basic "appropriate behaviour" that I learnt through trial and error.



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21 May 2010, 10:49 pm

Generally for autistic people there can be many reasons for being unable to do something the "right" way.

We can not understand it at all.

We can understand but not be able to implement it.

We can implement it but lack the understanding (like learn how to tell a yes/no question and then randomly choose an answer without it matching our thought or even without understanding words).

We can either understand or be able to act but not both at once.

And the list goes on.

This is not even just true of people considered Asperger's. I've met many people who were labeled severely autistic and nonverbal, but who actually understood social things at least as well as nonautistic people did, they just couldn't express it.

So if your shrink thinks that pattern can't be part of autism she has a lot of learning to do.


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