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Sweetleaf
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04 Sep 2011, 10:20 am

Gedrene wrote:
stilldays wrote:
If someone smokes it and they get panic from it, they could try an indica variety that tends to slow thought process instead of speeding it up. If anxiety continues then you're unlucky and should not smoke it. Also, when I use it I only smoke one or two puffs.

I thought it was already established that smoking is off-limits because of the toxins produced by combustion, not to mention the tar.


Smoking should be off limits to children...but people in general who use cannabis probably won't quit smoking it.



Zeraeph
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04 Sep 2011, 11:18 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Smoking should be off limits to children...


ABSOLUTELY...no child should ever be encouraged to smoke ANYTHING...nor even to know how (for the uninitiated, inhaling is *NOT* usually a natural reflex and can take some working out)

* I do not think cannabis can even be considered for other administration for medicinal purposes unless a healthy, controlled system of delivery can be devised.
* I think that anyone who tries to make people feel guilty for not breaking the law on behalf of their child needs a short sharp wake up call (to say the least), even if there were supporting evidence, and there is not.
* I do not think cannabis is helpful for all, or even most, autistics (thought it may still be helpful for a significant number, which must be recognised and explored) - it exacerbates my autism if anything, and I am not the only one - and a child may be totally unable to recognise and articulate this.
* If you are an adult, and you feel cannabis helps you, and you understand and accept the legal risks, the rule of "whatever gets you through the night should apply".
* THC (the active ingredient in cannabis) has never been shown to be addictive, despite multiple trials, though a psychological dependency can form over long periods of time in individuals otherwise predisposed to addiction.



Gedrene
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04 Sep 2011, 1:44 pm

Zeraeph wrote:
* THC (the active ingredient in cannabis) has never been shown to be addictive, despite multiple trials, though a psychological dependency can form over long periods of time in individuals otherwise predisposed to addiction.

If cannabis is addictive and THC is the active ingredient then how can you say THC isn't addictive? I'm going to investigate your claim.



Zeraeph
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04 Sep 2011, 2:02 pm

Gedrene wrote:
If cannabis is addictive and THC is the active ingredient then how can you say THC isn't addictive? I'm going to investigate your claim.


The explanation is very simple, cannabis has never been shown to have any physically addictive properties at all (apart from the aforementioned psychological factors) and I cannot imagine where you would get the idea it had.

Tobacco is addictive, and cannabis is often, even usually, smoked with it, which is a very bad idea, but the cannabis itself is not physically addictive at all. I wonder if you have it confused with opium? THAT is seriously addictive.



Gedrene
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05 Sep 2011, 2:27 am

Zeraeph wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
The explanation is very simple, cannabis has never been shown to have any physically addictive properties at all (apart from the aforementioned psychological factors)

So you say it isn't physically addictive but that it is psychologically addictive. Doesn't that mean that it's still addictive?



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05 Sep 2011, 4:59 am

Gedrene wrote:
So you say it isn't physically addictive but that it is psychologically addictive. Doesn't that mean that it's still addictive?


I don't know, it's a subjective judgement really isn't it?

You could argue that anything and everything is psychologically addictive.

But still, any drug that is not physically addictive is way ahead of the pack in therapeutic value versus harm.

Having said that, I do not believe cannabis is the best choice for all Autistics, let alone some incredible "cure all". It may only be the best choice for a few, but that is worth looking into. It certainly seems to have a dramatically beneficial effect on other conditions such as the side effects of chemotherapy for cancer and multiple sclerosis, so it is time to accept that and work towards safe, controlled forms of delivery for those conditions.



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05 Sep 2011, 5:42 am

Zeraeph wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
So you say it isn't physically addictive but that it is psychologically addictive. Doesn't that mean that it's still addictive?


I don't know, it's a subjective judgement really isn't it?

You could argue that anything and everything is psychologically addictive.

But still, any drug that is not physically addictive is way ahead of the pack in therapeutic value versus harm.

Having said that, I do not believe cannabis is the best choice for all Autistics, let alone some incredible "cure all". It may only be the best choice for a few, but that is worth looking into. It certainly seems to have a dramatically beneficial effect on other conditions such as the side effects of chemotherapy for cancer and multiple sclerosis, so it is time to accept that and work towards safe, controlled forms of delivery for those conditions.

Agreed. Hopefully magic bullet chemical medication will dveelop in a few years, mediating and cutting off the problem of anxiey for good. Or maybe people wills top bullying children in the future, thus actually cutting stuff off at the source rather than requiring dodgy or expensive treatments.



Zeraeph
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05 Sep 2011, 6:16 am

Gedrene wrote:
Agreed. Hopefully magic bullet chemical medication will dveelop in a few years, mediating and cutting off the problem of anxiey for good. Or maybe people wills top bullying children in the future, thus actually cutting stuff off at the source rather than requiring dodgy or expensive treatments.


D'you know what?

I am not sure cannabis should ever be considered as a generic anti-anxiety medication. The effects are so varied on different people, and it does seem to cause demotivation and apathy in many people that might take away anxiety in the short term while leaving you more to be anxious about in the long term?

Though the one big problem it would solve is that all the common anti-anxiety meds I can immediately think of are really horrendously physically addictive in long term use.

I cannot comment on the uses specific to autism because the effect it has on *me* personally would tend to make me far more autistic and withdrawn, but I am happy to accept the word of people who say it helps them. I do not know whether that is just about anxiety or whether it helps them in other ways too.

Also, anxiety isn't just for children...there are plenty of things in adult life that can (and even *SHOULD* - anxiety is the trip switch for some healthy life reflexes!) trigger severe anxiety. I think the problem is more that autistic people usually find it harder to turn anxiety *off* when it has served it's purpose.



Gedrene
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05 Sep 2011, 7:42 am

Zeraeph wrote:
I am not sure cannabis should ever be considered as a generic anti-anxiety medication. The effects are so varied on different people, and it does seem to cause demotivation and apathy in many people that might take away anxiety in the short term while leaving you more to be anxious about in the long term?


Again, I think we agree that any sort of intervention in to our biochemistry is suspect. Again, we believe that need not be the case in the short run.



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05 Sep 2011, 8:17 am

Gedrene wrote:
Zeraeph wrote:
I am not sure cannabis should ever be considered as a generic anti-anxiety medication. The effects are so varied on different people, and it does seem to cause demotivation and apathy in many people that might take away anxiety in the short term while leaving you more to be anxious about in the long term?


Again, I think we agree that any sort of intervention in to our biochemistry is suspect. Again, we believe that need not be the case in the short run.


Not quite what I was saying, though I certainly believe long term psychotropic drug use should always be a last resort rather than a first one.

I am not sure cannabis should be considered as a generic anti-anxiety medication in *we* (the human race) because it's effects are so variable and unpredictable compared to alternatives, though where the use will be long term there is a significant advantage in the absence of physical dependency. It needs to be decided on a case by case basis, which, in practice, never seems to happen with generic anti-anxiety medications. The reality tends to be that either your Doctor believes in dishing them out like smarties, or is reluctant to prescribe at all and what the individual patient actually needs seems almost irrelevant.

That is also the key to all forms of ASD. There is no "one size fits all" for therapy and treatment either. That also needs deciding on a case by case basis for individual patients, with the greatest tool being to actually *ASK* the patient what they need and how they are responding and listen to the answer.

This is particularly important when dealing with autistics because such a high proportion of us have atypical reactions to drugs and other therapies.



Sweetleaf
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05 Sep 2011, 11:25 am

Zeraeph wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Smoking should be off limits to children...


ABSOLUTELY...no child should ever be encouraged to smoke ANYTHING...nor even to know how (for the uninitiated, inhaling is *NOT* usually a natural reflex and can take some working out)

* I do not think cannabis can even be considered for other administration for medicinal purposes unless a healthy, controlled system of delivery can be devised.
* I think that anyone who tries to make people feel guilty for not breaking the law on behalf of their child needs a short sharp wake up call (to say the least), even if there were supporting evidence, and there is not.
* I do not think cannabis is helpful for all, or even most, autistics (thought it may still be helpful for a significant number, which must be recognised and explored) - it exacerbates my autism if anything, and I am not the only one - and a child may be totally unable to recognise and articulate this.
* If you are an adult, and you feel cannabis helps you, and you understand and accept the legal risks, the rule of "whatever gets you through the night should apply".
* THC (the active ingredient in cannabis) has never been shown to be addictive, despite multiple trials, though a psychological dependency can form over long periods of time in individuals otherwise predisposed to addiction.


Uhh the OP, is not giving her child edibles illegally or against their will.....I imagine they live in a state where medicinal marijuana is legal and was prescribed for the child. Also, apparently the drug the child was on was causing liver damage which the cannabis will not do......so if cannabis is safer and just as effective why not?

And of course it is not helpful for everyone with autism, or everyone without it....just like any other drug it works for some people and does not work for others.



Sweetleaf
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05 Sep 2011, 11:33 am

Zeraeph wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
So you say it isn't physically addictive but that it is psychologically addictive. Doesn't that mean that it's still addictive?


I don't know, it's a subjective judgement really isn't it?

You could argue that anything and everything is psychologically addictive.

But still, any drug that is not physically addictive is way ahead of the pack in therapeutic value versus harm.

Having said that, I do not believe cannabis is the best choice for all Autistics, let alone some incredible "cure all". It may only be the best choice for a few, but that is worth looking into. It certainly seems to have a dramatically beneficial effect on other conditions such as the side effects of chemotherapy for cancer and multiple sclerosis, so it is time to accept that and work towards safe, controlled forms of delivery for those conditions.


There are safe forms of delivery, they are called edibles.....there are others to, but yeah baked goods with cannabis in them are quite safe gotta be careful with how much you ingest with that though otherwise you will end up stoned out of your mind because edibles take a little longer to have effects but tend to be quite strong.

That being said though smoking is one of the quickest methods which is why some people choose that...In Colorado where I live medical marijuana is legal so if someone has their medical card they can smoke or otherwise ingest cannabis at their own discretion and also sort of regulate their own dosage. That is one controversial thing though, but the truth of the matter is there is no set dosage that works for everyone who uses not to mention the working dosage also depends upon the strain of marijuana so it would be ridiculous for a doctor to try and 'regulate' the use to the extent they can with other prescriptions....for instance one 20mg pill of whatever a day, but it does not work that way with cannabis.



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05 Sep 2011, 11:43 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

Uhh the OP, is not giving her child edibles illegally or against their will....


I was speaking for more generally there Sweetleaf, having entered the discussion at a point where it had become very general. However, getting back to the OP (as is only polite):

shawniesmom wrote:
So my son has a classmate who like my son has been on rispirdal a long time and has begun to have liver function problems. His mother just confided in me that for the past 6months he has been a legal card holding medical marijuana user (edibles) It is having a less sedating effect than the rispirdal, but seems to address all of his anxiety, aggression and self injury issues, and has even become social with new people instead of melting down. I am considering heading down this path. I was wondering if anyone is using medical MJ for symptoms or has their child on it......i would appreciate any input pos or neg, how it helps your symptoms or anything. thank you


As I did say:
Zeraeph wrote:
I do not think cannabis is helpful for all, or even most, autistics (thought it may still be helpful for a significant number, which must be recognised and explored) - it exacerbates my autism if anything, and I am not the only one - and a child may be totally unable to recognise and articulate this.


Also, just fact checking, I came across studies that shows a significant co-relation between early cannabis use (under 15) and schizophrenia that needs taking into account in terms of the OP:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3X09001407 (in french)
http://ukcia.org/research/EnvironmentAn ... hrenia.pdf
http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/teen ... 1103071676



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05 Sep 2011, 11:57 am

Zeraeph wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:

Uhh the OP, is not giving her child edibles illegally or against their will....


I was speaking for more generally there Sweetleaf, having entered the discussion at a point where it had become very general. However, getting back to the OP (as is only polite):

shawniesmom wrote:
So my son has a classmate who like my son has been on rispirdal a long time and has begun to have liver function problems. His mother just confided in me that for the past 6months he has been a legal card holding medical marijuana user (edibles) It is having a less sedating effect than the rispirdal, but seems to address all of his anxiety, aggression and self injury issues, and has even become social with new people instead of melting down. I am considering heading down this path. I was wondering if anyone is using medical MJ for symptoms or has their child on it......i would appreciate any input pos or neg, how it helps your symptoms or anything. thank you


As I did say:
Zeraeph wrote:
I do not think cannabis is helpful for all, or even most, autistics (thought it may still be helpful for a significant number, which must be recognised and explored) - it exacerbates my autism if anything, and I am not the only one - and a child may be totally unable to recognise and articulate this.


Also, just fact checking, I came across studies that shows a significant co-relation between early cannabis use (under 15) and schizophrenia that needs taking into account in terms of the OP:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 3X09001407 (in french)
http://ukcia.org/research/EnvironmentAn ... hrenia.pdf
http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/teen ... 1103071676


Well yes it does not work for everyone I agree with you there.

Also there is no indication that marijuana uses 'causes' schizophrenia if used under 15........it can contribute to it in individuals with a pre-disposition. Also chronic excessive use could probably cause some problems, but I do not think that is what is taking place the amount nessisary to keep a child from feeling the need to self harm and be more calm is not excessive.

Also, though there are also people with that disorder who use cannabis.....so it is hard to say whether the cannabis contributed or if they use it for self medicating.



Zeraeph
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05 Sep 2011, 12:29 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Well yes it does not work for everyone I agree with you there.

Also there is no indication that marijuana uses 'causes' schizophrenia if used under 15........it can contribute to it in individuals with a pre-disposition. Also chronic excessive use could probably cause some problems, but I do not think that is what is taking place the amount nessisary to keep a child from feeling the need to self harm and be more calm is not excessive.

Also, though there are also people with that disorder who use cannabis.....so it is hard to say whether the cannabis contributed or if they use it for self medicating.


It's reasonable to assume that it contributed in at least some cases...but in truth that is not a case I am making, just information I came across that seemed particularly relevant to share in terms of the OP.

Personally I would not give cannabis to a child, but it is not my decision to make or live with so it seems just to provide any information relevant to that decision, and I do think these French studies are relevant.



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06 Sep 2011, 10:04 am

Zeraeph wrote:
Personally I would not give cannabis to a child, but it is not my decision to make or live with so it seems just to provide any information relevant to that decision, and I do think these French studies are relevant.

The studies are relevant. However, I don't agree with the first statement. All people have a right to intercede on events that don't effect them if what is being done is wrong. That's not just a right, but a responsibility.