DSM 5; Aspergers vs Schizoid Personality Disorder

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nick007
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04 Jun 2010, 6:17 am

When I was tested for AS about 6/7 years ago; AS was ruled out in favor of Schizoid Personality Disorder instead. I've done a bit of research on SPD as well as AS & I'm pretty sure that I have AS but got the SPD diagnoses because Aspergers & Schizoid Personality Disorder can NOT coexist & I have characteristics of both. I think my SPD traits are because of the AS like a coping mechanism or something. I heard that the DSM5 is likely doing away with Schizoid Personality Disorder witch I'm glad cuz SPD is a very controversial diagnoses. If dsm5 gets rid of SPD; What would happen to people who wer previously diagnosed with SPD :?: If they had the characteristics of AS as well(like me) could they be defaulted into the Aspergers diagnoses :?: Also I'm on disability for a combination of things & one of it was SPD; Is there a chance of me getting kicked-off or having to see another doc or something due to the DSM doing away with that specific diagnoses even thou I still have the same issues & problems :?


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Leekduck
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04 Jun 2010, 6:30 am

You might get re-diagnosed with Aspergers, or they just might move you onto another Personallity disorder like Schizotypal personality disorder, which is also very similar to Schizoid Personality disorder.



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04 Jun 2010, 6:46 am

nick007 wrote:
When I was tested for AS about 6/7 years ago; AS was ruled out in favor of Schizoid Personality Disorder instead. I've done a bit of research on SPD as well as AS & I'm pretty sure that I have AS but got the SPD diagnoses because Aspergers & Schizoid Personality Disorder can NOT coexist & I have characteristics of both. I think my SPD traits are because of the AS like a coping mechanism or something. I heard that the DSM5 is likely doing away with Schizoid Personality Disorder witch I'm glad cuz SPD is a very controversial diagnoses. If dsm5 gets rid of SPD; What would happen to people who wer previously diagnosed with SPD :?: If they had the characteristics of AS as well(like me) could they be defaulted into the Aspergers diagnoses :?: Also I'm on disability for a combination of things & one of it was SPD; Is there a chance of me getting kicked-off or having to see another doc or something due to the DSM doing away with that specific diagnoses even thou I still have the same issues & problems :?


I was diagnosed with SPD about 20 years ago but was very skeptical at the time because it wasn't a very good fit for me. I take a lot of pleasure in a lot of things and I do respond to praise and criticism, probably more than the average person in the case of criticism. I didn't fit enough of the criteria and I was diagnosed using the MMPI which I later learned comes out as SPD on most people with asperger's. When I was diagnosed with AS 9 years ago, it was the first diagnosis in my life that actually fit without gaps, without leaving parts of my life unexplained, without having to stretch the criteria, with more than enough of the checklist items applying.

I didn't know they were going to write SPD out of the DSM. A little research should reveal what happens to those people diagnostically.

As for disability, in the United States, although they have a code for the condition and the name of the condition will be in your records, the actual disability award is based on specific disability -- meaning problems dressing, feeding, working, taking care of a family, etc. -- rather than on diagnosis. That is to say, for example, while one's file might say "disability = chronic recurrent depression" the client doesn't automatically get disability based on that diagnosis but rather on how it affects their ability to work, keep their house clean, etc.

I was originally put on disability for chronic recurrent depression. I had a real tossed salad of diagnoses and my case worker sifted through them all and chose depression for the forms. Later, while on disability, I was diagnosed with asperger's and that lifted the chronic recurrent depression diagnosis because even though I've had depression since age five, my doctor was convinced that it is situational (dealing with living with undiagnosed and unrecognized asperger's all my life.)

When it was time to go for recertification, no one asked me if my diagnosis had changed. I went to a doctor's office and he adminstered a test of my cognitive skills and asked me stuff like where do I see myself in five years. The doctor determined that I am still disabled and so it goes. My understanding is that you do not have to report a change in diagnosis to social security, only a change in ability. If you are suddenly "un-disabled" you have to tell them . . . but you would anyway because you'd be reporting that you had a job and income and such.

And they do understand that if your diagnosis "disappears" it doesn't suddenly make you "all better" just because a new edition of the DSM comes out.


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04 Jun 2010, 7:17 am

I've mentioned before that I was provisionally diagnosed with SPD a year before I was 18, when Asperger's was not well known or a diagnosable condition(1975). It seems to me if they say they can't diagnose until after 18, then my "maladjustment", i.e. extreme lack of social ability, which was evident at age 2, would indicate an ASD, perhaps PDD-NOS. I keep bringing this up because I guess I'd like an opinion. I know I fit the diagnostic criteria, but my repetitive routines and behaviors are not disabling. There are a number of people here who are diagnosed who's social skills far surpass mine.



nick007
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04 Jun 2010, 8:11 am

That makes sense Sparrowrose. When I 1st started seeing a psych for mental stuff years ago; she diagnosed me as AS along with other things but couldn't run the official test. I started getting SSI shortly after in part cuz of the AS diagnoses. I got officially tested for AS shortly after I was on SSI & I was given the diagnoses of SPD in addition to lots of other things. They said I had all the main symptoms of Schizotypal Personality Disorder then to but I don't think they officially diagnosed me with it. I was suffering from a psychotic depression then & on meds & think that could of caused some of those Schizotypal symptoms. I saw other docs sense for things & they all thought I had Schizoid Personality instead of AS. They said something about me communicating to well verbally to have AS instead of Schizoid. I was also given diagnoses of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Obsessive Compulsive Personality, Borderline Personality, Codependent Disorder, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Social Anxiety, Panic Anxiety. & leaning problems. I've been diagnosed as Dyslexic & ADHD sense I started school. From what I understand all these things can coexist with Aspergers except for Schizoid & Schizotypal Personality.

At the end of last summer I had to apply for Social Security Disability cuz I started working after I was on SSI & after they reviewed all the records they sent me to a specialist in developmental disorders cuz they weren't sure of AS or not. I think he said Schizoid to but he didn't really test or do much; it was only like a hour or so. It seemed like people wer hung-up on the specific diagnoses. I also have bad vision that wasn't diagnosed till my senor year of high-school. It seemed like the psychs didn't know what to make of it sense it could cause a couple of my Aspergers characteristics so they diagnosed me as everything except AS instead. I have lots of other AS things that vision & these other diagnoses can not account for thou so I would like to have an official AS diagnoses. I haven't been to a psych in a year & a half(except for that Social Security thing) & I do not want to spend a lot of money going true vigorous testing again to still not have a diagnoses.


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carltcwc
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04 Jun 2010, 11:23 pm

According to the current DSM aspergers isnt sussposed to be diagnosed along with schizoid or schizotypal. However some psychistrists diagnose them together. When I was approved for ssi they diagnosed me with aspergers, adhd, and schizotypal personality traits. Not all psychistrists follow the dsm. I think it might be stating that the schizotypal/schizoid symptoms cannot be explained by aspergers such as having all the symptoms that do not overlap with aspergers.



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05 Jun 2010, 9:17 am

I suppose if someone were to look at my life now they might see me as schizoid because I do not socialize but I don't think a schizoid would feel compelled to get on WP every day either. It just works better for me to interact with people this way.



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05 Jun 2010, 6:58 pm

Aimless wrote:
I suppose if someone were to look at my life now they might see me as schizoid because I do not socialize but I don't think a schizoid would feel compelled to get on WP every day either. It just works better for me to interact with people this way.


There is a somewhat active forum online (though nowhere near as active as WP) that consists entirely of people diagnosed with SPD and people who have self-diagnosed as SPD. The members appear to enjoy using the forum a great deal. At least as much as someone with SPD can enjoy anything, that is.


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05 Jun 2010, 7:08 pm

nick007 wrote:
I heard that the DSM5 is likely doing away with Schizoid Personality Disorder witch I'm glad cuz SPD is a very controversial diagnoses. If dsm5 gets rid of SPD; What would happen to people who wer previously diagnosed with SPD :?


http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/P ... spx?rid=14

Quote:
301.20
Schizoid Personality Disorder

* Proposed Revision
* Rationale
* Severity
* DSM-IV

The Work Group recommends that this disorder be represented and diagnosed by a combination of core impairment in personality functioning and specific pathological personality traits, rather than as a specific type.

Prominent Personality Traits: Social withdrawal, Social detachment, Intimacy avoidance, Restricted affectivity, Anhedonia


If I understand, instead of a big-picture approach ("You have Schizoid Personality Disorder") there will be a detailed approach ("You have a Personality Disorder with these symptoms: Social withdraw, Intimacy avoidance and Restricted affectivity")



nick007
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05 Jun 2010, 7:44 pm

TPE2 wrote:
nick007 wrote:
I heard that the DSM5 is likely doing away with Schizoid Personality Disorder witch I'm glad cuz SPD is a very controversial diagnoses. If dsm5 gets rid of SPD; What would happen to people who wer previously diagnosed with SPD :?


http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/P ... spx?rid=14

Quote:
301.20
Schizoid Personality Disorder

* Proposed Revision
* Rationale
* Severity
* DSM-IV

The Work Group recommends that this disorder be represented and diagnosed by a combination of core impairment in personality functioning and specific pathological personality traits, rather than as a specific type.

Prominent Personality Traits: Social withdrawal, Social detachment, Intimacy avoidance, Restricted affectivity, Anhedonia


If I understand, instead of a big-picture approach ("You have Schizoid Personality Disorder") there will be a detailed approach ("You have a Personality Disorder with these symptoms: Social withdraw, Intimacy avoidance and Restricted affectivity")


I thought it meant they are doing away with the personality disorder diagnoses & instead diagnoses people as having each of those individual symptoms that the person has. Social withdraw, Intimacy avoidance, & Restricted affectivity are all symptoms of Apsergers & other disorders as well so I guess they'll just list those symptoms in the diagnoses of whatever else the person has. Like if the person has AS; they'll say AS & those symptoms or something


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05 Jun 2010, 8:54 pm

carltcwc wrote:
According to the current DSM aspergers isnt sussposed to be diagnosed along with schizoid or schizotypal. However some psychistrists diagnose them together. When I was approved for ssi they diagnosed me with aspergers, adhd, and schizotypal personality traits. Not all psychistrists follow the dsm. I think it might be stating that the schizotypal/schizoid symptoms cannot be explained by aspergers such as having all the symptoms that do not overlap with aspergers.


One of my kids seems to be moving to a more schizotypal form of bi-polar and he has Asperger's. I don't think that people all break up neatly into the axis of the DSM5. Those things are helpful models and can help with insurance and that kind of thing, but shouldn't override the human element. My son may outgrow some of the schizytypal stuff, it's too early to tell, but there is a lot of full blown schyzophrenia on his father's side of the family so it could be here to stay.



carltcwc
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08 Jun 2010, 3:36 am

Having a mix of aspergers and schizotypal isnt all bad. The combination makes me extremely creative and I think I benifit from it more than it causes some impairments in certain things. I think a lot of my musical creativity comes from it.



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08 Jun 2010, 11:52 am

I've bounced back and forth between schizoid and ppd-nos over the last 10 years. No one who knew me personally, with any amount of diagnosis experience, never much agreed with schizoid. Finally, this year, the head of the group that does the area's state evaluation center handled my yearly testing. He agreed that schizoid wasn't the right diagnosis. He said I have quite a mix of criteria for various labels which means that I should be diagnosed as having ppd-nos.


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08 Jun 2010, 12:28 pm

carltcwc wrote:
Having a mix of aspergers and schizotypal isnt all bad. The combination makes me extremely creative and I think I benifit from it more than it causes some impairments in certain things. I think a lot of my musical creativity comes from it.


That's good to hear. The way this child has been lately...well, it's just not easy. How was puberty for you?

This boy used to be sweet and caring. He was a hard worker and extremely honest. In fact he was the kind of Aspie who couldn't lie. Now he's unable to tell the truth no matter how obvious the lies are or how much trouble gets in. He is destructive, constantly taking apart the families possessions. He's cost us thousands upon thousands of dollars this year. He roams at night and I don't get much sleep trying to keep him out of trouble. He's oppositional and won't follow the most basic instructions. His personal hygeine, which was always a challenge has become, well, it's just really gross. He'll hide dirty clothes. When I make him put clean ones on for school he'll sneak back and put the dirty ones back on. He never does homework and nearly didn't pass this grade. Previously he was an Honors student. He's just changed so much.

We are in constant contact with his Doctors and they are working with us, but I don't think they quite realize how bad things are. I tell them, but they don't seem to get the depth of it. There aren't a lot of alternatives in this region. If we had a halfway decent option to institutionalize him I'd do it, at least to help him get on his feet. The only place in this region is such a Hell Hole that I know he'd never recover and likely just end up destitute on the street. We don't have the money for a private facility. My husband is a retired Master Sergeant and I'm a substitute teacher who rarely gets to work because I'm constantly having to shuttle this child to Doctors or get him from school because he's melting down so violently. I could get better work but I simply don't have time. My son also has two brothers with equally intense and important needs.

Did you go through a phase like that, and did you recover? Did it ever end?



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08 Jun 2010, 2:54 pm

Okay...THIS is the thread I hoped someone would start! Otherwise, I'd have started something along these lines me-self!

I, too, have characteristics of both AS and SPD (or at least I fairly sure)! After reading and being on WP for a while, I came to a conclusion similar to nick007!

For me, Asperger's Syndrome is just a part of who we are. It's always been there and it's NOT GOING anywhere! It's a neurological condition that causes behavioral deficits.

Schizoid Personality Disorder is one's reaction to the world around him/her based on life experiences - an outcropping, if you will, that plays off the unique traits of the individual.

Now, the current DSM says it ain't SO. I won't argue the point; I'll only say that I have my opinion and that it's similar to the OP.

Another thread seemed to suggest that perhaps instead of parallel spectrums, AS and SPD exist on a circular continuum (if I'm describing it correctly).

So...WHAT...is it like WrongPlanet members are creating our own paradigm for describing these issues? :idea:

WOW!



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08 Jun 2010, 3:18 pm

I'd just like to figure out a way to get the bad stuff to stop for my son so he could get back to his promising career path in robotics without all this delusional scary stuff going on.

The theories are really interesting to me. I'd probably be doing this kind of research if my ADHD had been caught and treated as a kid so school wasn't such a struggle. It's always been fascinating to me, and I did well in these kinds of classes in college. I'd either be researching Ed Psych, Neuro Psych or something along those lines.

I kind of see these axis as an organic thing, but if I had to make a geometric diagram it would look more like that game that has the tube with all the different sticks going through it in different directions...you know the one where you pull the sticks out trying not to drop the marbles. I can't really make a strong case for it, it just feels like the shape to me.