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SoSayWeAll
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12 Jun 2010, 11:35 am

I am beginning to get the idea that I am not understanding exactly what is referred to by "empathy," given that my experiences with my friends who have AS belie what I thought the term was referring to. I had thought it meant caring about others. Is compassion an entirely separate construct, as it refers to the diagnostic criteria?

I know in the case of those individuals where we consider each other friends, I see them as highly rational, but NOT without compassion or without the feelings that typically go with a friendship. One of my friends who recently told me he has AS is pretty hellbent on cheering me up from my very pessimistic views on a certain subject. Hasn't quite succeeded, but still. ;)

So I am thinking I am misunderstanding what's meant by "empathy," that the term is narrower than that. Because frankly, it doesn't square up with experience, otherwise.



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12 Jun 2010, 11:46 am

I believe empathy is completely separate from compassion. I lack the ability to empathize, to truly feel another persons emotions as my own. But I have compassion for others, I can rationalize how you must feel in a situation, even if I don't experience the feeling myself.

I hope that explains a bit, it will not apply to all aspies / autistics but it makes sense to me. I've had some confusion about the definition of empathy myself not so long ago.



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12 Jun 2010, 12:53 pm

SoSayWeAll wrote:
I am beginning to get the idea that I am not understanding exactly what is referred to by "empathy," ..... I am misunderstanding what's meant by "empathy," that the term is narrower than that. Because frankly, it doesn't square up with experience, otherwise.

Mayhap you are not misunderstanding the definition, however MarjinR's comments are probably quite relevant. In my own experience I think that many Aspies have a compassionate response that looks very different from what neurotypicals expect. As a result the NT's interpret the response as inappropriate. Aspies who empathic response is similar to neurotypicals might well arrive at the same conclusion.

We can be very mechanical and appear very cold if we respond much more analytically and logically to what others would respond to with more obvious emotion. If compassion is about caring, then we are showing empathy in our actions even though it is not the response that a neurotypical is likely to call compassion.

In my own experience, I have found that in emergency or disaster situations I go emotionally cold but go into a logical mode of reaction, taking actions to set things right and offset bad consequences. After it is all over I am as drained as anyone who went into hysterics (the other extreme). I would call this compassion, as my concern is focused on caring for the needs of others. However when the crisis is an emotional crisis for a neurotypical I may be less than usless as I am trying to deal with something that I only feebly understand. I can understand that they have a major need but I am pretty much a blind guide, only able to offer superficial easing of their emotional pain. It is not that I am emotionally bereft myself, but my emotions seem to have considerable differences and I may over or under react emotionally by neurotypical standards.


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LostAlien
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12 Jun 2010, 1:15 pm

I think my expression of empathy may be different.

My Mum's friend has this issue (I think it's) with a nerve damage of some kind, anyways she can't always tell when her hands get too cold and that her hands being cold for too long increases the damage a bit. When she told me, I boiled the kettle and filled a mug with hot water and handed it to her (because her hands were cold). She was puzzeled.



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12 Jun 2010, 2:15 pm

"Empathy" is often referred to in early Autistic research (including Aspgerger's own research) as "emotional reciprocity."

I'll assume you don't need "emotional" defined.

Reciprocity comes from the root word, "Reciprocal," which is essentially the merging of two Latin words, "Recus," (which is an adjective describing "back" or "back toward") and "Procus," (an adjective describing "forward").

Dictionary.com defines Reciprocal as "given or felt by each toward the other." HERE

It differs from "Compassion" in the sense that you actually feel what the other person feels, and your emotions "feed" off one another. Compassion doesn't require that you feel the same emotion. Compassion is its own emotion, though it can be tough to feel compassion without Empathy.

I can sometimes empathize without compassion. I can sometimes feel Compassion without empathizing (though for me it is very difficult).

If someone crying in your presence brings you to tears, that's empathy. If it doesn't bring you to tears, but causes you to feel as though you need to help, that's compassion without empathy. If you feel both, it's both.

Lack of empathy alone, or even hyper empathy, is not by itself an indicator of having or not having Autism.


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SoSayWeAll
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12 Jun 2010, 4:40 pm

Thanks...that's definitely helping to make it all make sense. :)

LostAlien...I'm surprised the person you were talking to didn't recognize your intent. Even if the timing might have seemed odd (if she was not in need of it right then, or even if that was not what she needed in general), I know that would've been very obvious to me. I think I would have been touched and if I didn't need it, simply said, "I don't need that now, but thank you very much." This friend of your mom's NT, or no?

Maybe I tend to see compassion and kindness in small acts more than some do. Even if someone just sends me articles they think I'd like to read, I see the kindness in that. Saying the words feels very nice, but I do see it in actions easily.

(MrXxx--you sure knew how to get my nerd impulses going! I LOVE etymology! ;) )



LostAlien
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12 Jun 2010, 5:01 pm

SoSayWeAll wrote:

LostAlien...I'm surprised the person you were talking to didn't recognize your intent. Even if the timing might have seemed odd (if she was not in need of it right then, or even if that was not what she needed in general), I know that would've been very obvious to me. I think I would have been touched and if I didn't need it, simply said, "I don't need that now, but thank you very much." This friend of your mom's NT, or no?

She said exactly what you said you'd say but she looked puzzeled. I thought I acted oddly. She is an NT but she's nice and accepting of me being different. Perhaps she didn't think I was listening to her, I got up to boil the kettle when I noticed her hands were cold, perhaps she didn't make the connection because I didn't say much.



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05 May 2019, 9:59 pm

Things like emotions often are hard to characterize objectively. I think that it is not an inability to feel or to feel for others is necessarily lacking by having Asperger's as differentiated from more extreme forms of classic autism, which Asperger's is not. I think with lower function, personal awareness and awareness of others doesn't take place as well or often. Where I think people with Asperger's might at least seem non-empathic are when

A. It is very overwhelming when we let that in, so we may avoid it, much like not challenging by looking in the eye, baring our teeth (all which are threat displays in mammals) but are required in some societies so that dominant members can cull the members that can't hide their dislike or disapproval well from the dominant member. Distancing ourselves from others doesn't embroil us into their ups and downs and take us on a rollercoaster of emotions that aren't even ours.


B. When we have very inflexible rules systems to codify a life we can live with than the chaos most people make for themselves by having conflicting rules that it may be impossible to meed the conflicting demands of. Showing emotions for people that seem to have brought on their own problems by violating rules and yet the people are hurting as a result. Should we show emotion or sympathy towards such people and perhaps show a weakening of resolve that allows people to play by another set of rules that we don't have a handbook for or should we show mercy and compassion for others so that others will also have that tendency when our time comes that we our caught in a Catch-22 despite all our attempts to follow the rules and do our jobs to the best of our ability and be honest. I'm very emotional but I tend not to show it. I get easily overwhelmed but have learned to harden myself a bit with known sociopaths. I don't stoop to their levels but I can weather their abuse better knowing what they are. Just several hours ago I experienced someone who basically ran rough shod over a bunch of us and then he tried to make it seem like we agreed with him when we didn't have any resort to hold our 'rights' short of getting in a fight. A bunch of that this guy did this to are significantly physically disabled and he's a big brute of a guy. When I told him that we hadn't agreed that he had merely did it without our permission, he came up behind me and shouted "f**k YOU" into my ear a few inches away from touching my ear with his lips. With Asperger's and extremely good hearing this was very uncomfortable to put it mildly, which was his intent, and he knows about my Asperger's as well as some spinal/joint conditions I have that make me physically fragile. I'm not going to play into his mind games that some that are a bit 'not all there' be twisted into thinking it was our idea that he change the channel in the middle of our movie. I know that I was right, I stuck to my guns, but didn't insist on my rights to the point of getting sent to the hospital or the morgue. This guy is an example of someone I wouldn't waste any emotionality on, whether it is anger, fear or sadness and certainly not any happiness for him because he's gamed people in charge of the local 'system.' If any karmic correction occurs with my knowledge I won't even waste any emotion over that. The next guy that fills the vacuum may be as bad or worse.



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06 May 2019, 4:08 am

Empathy is a paradox, or so it seems.


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06 May 2019, 1:36 pm

A book about aspegers the doc gave me explains the difference "sympathy" and "empathy".

Sympathy is having compassion, being concerned, etc.

Empathy is the cognitive talent for getting into the other person's head/heart. Figuring out what they feel. Theory of mind.

You can have sympathy without empathy (be concerned, but inept at discerning the feelings of others). And you can have empathy, but not have sympathy.



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06 May 2019, 1:48 pm

empathy (n): The action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner -- the capacity or ability to imagine oneself in the situation of another, experiencing the emotions, ideas, or opinions of that person.

sympathy (n): The feelings of pity and sorrow for someone else's misfortune -- largely used to convey commiseration, pity, or feelings of sorrow for someone else who is experiencing misfortune. This sense is often seen in the category of greeting cards labeled “sympathy” that specialize in messages of support and sorrow for others in a time of need. You feel bad for them … but you don’t know what it is like to be in their shoes.


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06 May 2019, 2:23 pm

It's still confusing though. If NTs have the capability of imagining and understanding how it feels to experience a situation they haven't experienced, then why do so many autistic people get so misunderstood? If all NTs were skilled empaths (the way it is explained by dictionary definition), then I don't think WP would even need to exist. It would be a perfect world. But when you read about autism, it makes it sound like NTs are experts at feeling empathy for everybody while autistics are completely crap at it.

My mum has cancer, and she says that although everybody cares (they all feel worried, etc) and goes out of their way to help her (like take time off work to take her to hospital appointments), she still feels that people forget how tired or drained she might be feeling, just because they are not suffering with the disease. So it's probably more sympathy than empathy going on, although I'm not saying there's no empathy at all. I think humans in general are better at offering sympathy, unless they are going through the same things themselves, and can imagine some situations that they haven't experienced but not all the time.

A lot of Aspies think that empathy means reacting to someone crying correctly. But a lot of NTs admit themselves that they find it awkward if someone is crying, depending on the situation and how close they are to the crying person. And guys are worse at comforting another person who's crying. But feeling empathy isn't to be based on whether you comfort somebody who's crying or not. When someone cries, I usually cry or have the urge to cry too. But not everybody does. And crying in public as a teen or adult seems to cause people to laugh at you.


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06 May 2019, 2:28 pm

Joe90 wrote:
It's still confusing though. If NTs have the capability of imagining and understanding how it feels to experience a situation they haven't experienced, then why do so many autistic people get so misunderstood? ...
I think it's because the ability to imagine and understand feelings does not convey the ability to "handle" a meltdown.

For instance, a steak that arrives rare instead of well-done might not be a big deal to an NT, but it may trigger a full-blown meltdown in an autistic person who is upset by the sight of blood.

("Good grief! It's just a little blood! We'll send it back to the kitchen. Now calm down! Calm down, I said! CALM DOWN!")

Telling an autistic person in full meltdown to "Calm down" is about as effective as telling a suicidal person to "Have a nice day".


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06 May 2019, 2:46 pm

I think the term empathy is problematic and is trying to mash together different, but mutually supporting, cognitive functions. This is why people feel the need to clarify "affective empathy" and "cognitive empathy" and "compassionate empathy."

You've got:

1) Emotional resonance. I've heard it called an "emotional contagion." This tends to be witnessed most in interpersonal dynamics. When someone is crying in front of you, do you innately resonate with their emotional state? When you're in a crowded room and there is an atmosphere that is being socially shared, do you share it as well? This is a reciprocation thing. It's innate. If you sit in the corner at parties because you can't enjoy the "collective spirit," you probably struggle with aspects of this one. You're guarded against the contagion.

2) Rationalization of different perspectives. This is a skill you learn over time with information and observation. There's nothing inherently emotional about it, although it can impact other emotional processes. This is something a psychopath can do. A simple example is understanding that a libertarian who emigrated to the U.S. from East Germany in the 1980's won't respond favorably to a proposal to eliminate private property.

3) Having feelings of concern for the wellbeing of others. This is an emotional sensation, whether it be through pity or outrage at the struggles of others or a sense of contentedness from the positive state of others. This makes you want to help people and be nice to others, although in the absence of sufficient proficiency of points 1 and 2 you might fail to understand how to properly apply your compassion in an effective way. Example: Telling someone "everything's going to be alright!! !" in the best intentions is futile if they just watched someone they love die, and you would realize this because you resonate and perceive their generalized despair while knowing enough about how others grieve to realize "how grieving works."

All of these things are distinct but nevertheless do impact each other. Compassion may be possible but not achieved because of a lack of rationalization of the conditions of others. Rationalization may be achieved but compassion is absent, which makes education of the conditions of others ineffective to alter antisocial behavior in a psychopath.

How can someone have 1 and not 3, you wonder? It would be like "that guy makes me feel uncomfortable because they're always upset. I don't want to be around them" as opposed to "I feel his pain and want to assist him in alleviating it."

Personally I struggle with aspects of point 1 (unless you're being mean or aggressive to me...in which case I resonate with anxiety, fear, or terror), used to struggle catastrophically with point 2 but have made immense gains through self education, and have an overabundance of point 3, although it may show itself less in interpersonal relations and more through outrage at the unnecessary suffering of others. People tell me I have a kind and caring heart but they also tell me I am cold and closed off. They used to tell me I was naïve but no longer do.


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07 May 2019, 11:22 am

NTs have regions in their brain that cause them to recognize the emotions of other people and to feel immediately the same way. They call it mirror neurons. People with classic Asperger syndrome lack this may be except for fun, sorrow and aggression. (If it causes you to laugh once you see somybody laughing or to feel sorrow if you see somebody feeling this way.) NTs have mirror neurons for a lot more of emotions and not only facial expressions and women even more than men.
But you should be aware that your facial expressions cause the people around you not only to recognize your related emotions but to feel the way that you do. Not even few people are able to use their empathy to control the emotions of other people. The negative side is that lots of NTs are quite emotional driven and unable to control this.

Joe90 wrote:
It's still confusing though. If NTs have the capability of imagining and understanding how it feels to experience a situation they haven't experienced, then why do so many autistic people get so misunderstood?

Because the body-language of autists often expresses negative feelings and they are unaware of empathy. Bad feelings cause NTs to feel negative too and they don't like this. Beside of this are NTs into an ape like hierarchy and want to show that they are higher then others people in this hierarchy. Some of them do this by bullying the ones who nobody likes much and who lack self-confidence.


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07 May 2019, 1:40 pm

It's not just autistic people who get misunderstood though.

That's why forums and chat rooms and certain clubs and stuff were invented, so that people who have a physical or mental disability or disorder can talk to other like-minded people who will understand what it's really like to be in their shoes more than people who aren't suffering from their condition.


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