Any advice on picking a good fight?

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techstepgenr8tion
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25 Jun 2010, 12:22 am

As of right now I'm talking to someone, things look unusually good in terms of how our personality's match out - so far, and while that doesn't always mean anything in the end math I'm still scrutinizing my relationship skills that I've had to concoct out of....well...nothing.

Being on Eharmony I got something in my email, something to the effect of 'Nine signs that you've found 'the One'' - cheese, I know, but they made a point about something as well - fighting. If couples don't fight its a bad sign. What they're indicating is that such couples that never fight are almost always holding enough inside and not communicating to the point where dissatisfaction comes, which typically leads to a rapid dissolve of things. On one side - I'm way too analytical and problem-solving oriented for my own good... that and I have a habit of blowing smoke in the short term (generally speaking in my life) when I find things unfavorable, hoping I'll find a solution that I can concoct or manipulate out of what I have around me. I've never been a fighter or arguer in general. At the same time though, when I have met girls who did lets say have it in them to argue on an issue - even to the point of scolding - but then not run off, I actually found myself touched by it; ie someone who actually cared enough to communicate and be real with things - I've known too many friends who had relationships (marriages even) that broke up because their girlfriends/wives bit their lip until they just walked, it seems to happen both ways way too often these days.

So, realizing that this is an area that I need schooling in, how do I break myself of the habit of biting my lip? When's a good time to actually start the kind of conversation in 'fight' territory when something is bothering me enough? How do you conduct a constructive fight? I get the impression that once the lid is off the jar there's less of a hard silence over things and its much more easy for both partners to speak their minds. Mind you, I don't want fisticuffs with my partner either - just good conversation and good strategies to keep ourselves in the clear of anything unnecessarily gnawing at us over repressed use of certain social skills. Any pointers?



Sallamandrina
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25 Jun 2010, 12:51 am

I don't usually like to discuss this, because if I tell people my husband and I never fought in our 8 years together they seem to think I'm lying or posing :roll:. I ended up realising it might come down to how you define "fighting". Yes, there are disagreements and also compromises and negotiation. But I don't nag and never discuss things I don't like or frustrations while I'm upset or angry - it just doesn't lead anywhere and often makes people dread the "We have to talk" line. I also don't see the point in constantly complaining or criticising without thinking of solutions or being ready to meet the other one half way.

So yes, there is disagreement and it might take a while to get your point across and understand a sometimes very different POV, but it can be done without yelling, insulting or digging up old mistakes. Is this fighting? I don't know, but I'm quite fed up with the "couples that don't fight don't communicate" line, it's just like saying there's just one way to do things...


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AngelRho
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25 Jun 2010, 8:03 am

I have a somewhat opposing view. My wife and I are all about peace in our house, no matter what. It is RARE for us to fight about anything.

There are some good reasons for this. In our case, there are children involved, and setting a good example for our children as to the ideal marriage is important (kids tend to emulate their parents, either following in the patterns they grew up with or going to the opposite extreme). Our culture is very accepting of divorce as an easy way out of a bad relationship. I say there's no such thing as a bad relationship--only relationships in which both partners work hard to take care of each other and relationships in which they do very little. You can't be lazy in a relationship. It won't work out if you don't work at it.

We work hard at making sure our relationship is continually a harmonious one, and what has happened over time is we've made everything about ourselves very open and transparent to each other. Because we know everything about each other and even what the other person is thinking, there is very little conflict.

We talk to each other constantly--the best times being first thing in the morning and the hour after the kids go to bed. And I mean REALLY talk. We're both in our early 30's and feel we still have much to accomplish in life, that we're not satisfied with where we are and what we're doing at the moment. So we talk about things like the possibility of going back to school, about what we want for our kids, to what we got accomplished throughout the day, to chores that need to be done around the house tomorrow, where/if we're traveling over the weekend, what we want for our birthdays/Christmas--ANYTHING. We DON'T talk about money during these times, and CERTAINLY not about paying bills except maybe to celebrate that we were able to pay a bill!! !

We also have a fairly regular weekly routine--Saturdays and Sundays are typically lazy days. We eat Mexican food EVERY Tuesday night so we can hear our favorite mariachi band. Speaking of which, check 'em out here: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHJryLKrU60[/youtube]

We go to weekly Bible study and choir practice on Wednesday nights except during the summer, and I have band practice then so it's pizza night. Otherwise we'd have our meal at church and pizza night would be Monday or Thursday depending on when band practice is. The point here is that we MAKE TIME just to have fun and forget about the few problems that we actually do have.

We have easy conflict resolution because we manage our relationship such that it avoids conflict. The few times we actually DO go at it, honestly it's typically over the same kind of stuff that's destructive to most marriages.

The #1 thing that will cause grief in a relationship is money, whether it's having a lot of it (mo' money=mo' problems) or not enough (like us). We've learned to take everything in stride, figure out which money battles are worth fighting, and just not panic over it. A lot of couples have a hard time with this.

The #2 issue that will cause grief is that of in-laws. If they don't like you, two things will happen: They'll pick at you until you crack, which just proves to the whole world you're a jerk. They'll also act subversively towards your mate, and she's lived with them longer and had them more as an influence. Her parents can make HER life miserable, too, and if she has to choose between you and her own family, guess who's getting the axe. If you meet a girl that you can't influence in a similar way, effectively breaking her away from the influence of her parents, or if you can't make friends with the in-laws, RUN!! ! Forget about "true love" or her being "the one..." It ain't worth it!

I'm fortunate that I DID get along with my in-laws. I say DID because her mother died a few years before we even got engaged, and her father died 6 months (to the day) after we got married. Her grandmother is her only direct living relative, and it took me a LONG time to convince her that SHE had the power to take control in that relationship, that her grandmother doesn't OWN her (I do! :twisted: ). Her grandmother recently had a bad stroke which affected her short-term memory and still leaves her somewhat confused and disoriented, and ironically I was the one taking up for her the most because it was too difficult for her to communicate what she was thinking and how she felt. I convinced my wife to stand up to the sister who was just ready to have her put away, and my wife is in the unique position of having power of attorney and may seek conservatorship if the grandmother's sister tries to do something funny. One of the first things I insisted on early in our relationship was that she learn to be more assertive in those kinds of situations, even standing up to her own formidable grandmother and circumventing any guilt-hold she might have (her own mother couldn't even do it, basically just appeasing her as long as she was alive. The grandmother has even gone so far as saying that her granddaughter caused her mother's death just by being born. Try living with THAT). She absolutely HATED the kind of hold and influence I had on her granddaughter, but it led to us all having a healthy mutual respect that was well-maintained by distance!

My wife and my mom actually get along so well my mom would rather spend time with HER than with ME. I am a bit jealous, but then again, she's the only one my mom ever actually approved of.

The other cause of problems can be the partners' friends. In my band, I'm the only one who isn't divorced. So I got more than an earful from a bunch of guys accustomed to woman-bashing. I caught myself giving in to peer pressure, after which I swore I'd never do it again (my wife is perfect :lol: ). After that happened, I simply kept my mouth shut whenever the subject came up. Funny thing: The woman-bashing sessions came to an end within weeks. I'm also concerned with the influence others have on my wife and my family, and I INSIST we be careful about the friends we keep. A "girl's night out" BETTER be exactly THAT. If she can't drive herself home, she needs to get in touch with ME to pick her up or a designated girl friend needs to bring her home--not the girl friend's HUSBAND. One rule is that we do not act like idiots in public (or at least not apart from the other). I also insist that if she MUST complain about me that it doesn't appear more than it is. "My husband keeps forgetting to take out the trash and it pisses me off" is acceptable. "My husband is such a moron!! ! Let me tell you what he did THIS time..." is NOT. See the difference?

We are very possessive of each other--I'm talking strictly from my own POV, but any "rules" I have apply to me as well. But we are also capable of existing apart from each other. Band practice, while it is necessary, does keep us apart. I have a church-related trip next week, which means we're going to be away from each other for an entire week, not to mention a similar event less than a week after I get back. So we both get that whole "single parent" experience from time to time. Aside from getting much-needed "space," it keeps us from taking each other for granted. While much of our time is spent together for our mutual good, we also avoid co-dependency. Feeling you are dependent on your mate even for the air you breathe is NOT a good place to be (been there, done that) and will ultimately lead to one person being the dominant one in the relationship. If you don't have two people pulling together, you don't have much. I've certainly felt trampled on in past relationships (as has she), so it is important to us that we have an equal share. I'm the "leader" in the sense that I'm THE spiritual leader of the house and have the power to make certain rules, but our dialogue is two-way.

Those kinds of things will help avoid conflict. Everyone has problems. Everyone loses his or her cool and pick a fight from time to time. My point is fighting is not the ONLY way of handling things, and there are usually better and more effective ways of handling contention. In summary, don't let the sun go down on your anger. Gain the wisdom to know when issues can't be resolved immediately, "sleep on it," and try again with a cool head.



Willard
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25 Jun 2010, 12:08 pm

Regulars will know that I have asserted before that if one's Autism isn't causing significant impairment in daily function, one probably doesn't have a diagnosable ASD. Still, I suppose it might be helpful to be getting all this advice from people who don't have the problem you've described. :roll:


I can't tell you how to fix it, and I'm not sure that it can be fixed (short of Jesus healing you of your Autism), because I believe it to be part of the Autistic processing deficiencies. We are simply under-equipped when it comes to verbal sparring under pressure. While we process the first barrage (be it accusation, angry assertion, insult, or what-have-you) the neurotypical opponent is already on to the fourth, fifth or sixth barrage of angry invective. We simply can't keep up, not because we lack the intelligence to counter their arguments, but because we can't process fast enough to parry one blow before the next is launched.

Having lived with this reality for years on end, one learns to simply keep one's thoughts to oneself, to internalize. When so much of one's verbal communication can be misinterpreted, due to the lack of nonverbal communications skills, it does make a person gun-shy about even bringing up the bothersome things that come up in a relationship, knowing that once that misunderstanding occurs (and it will), one will only flounder in the ensuing 'discussion'.

Short of finding the 'perfect' partner (as apparently others have) who never becomes dissatisfied or frustrated with Autistic rigidity, I can't imagine what the solution would be - I've not found it in 50 years. But maybe that's what all those 'points of compatibility' at EHarmony are for. :D



techstepgenr8tion
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25 Jun 2010, 1:51 pm

Willard wrote:
Regulars will know that I have asserted before that if one's Autism isn't causing significant impairment in daily function, one probably doesn't have a diagnosable ASD. Still, I suppose it might be helpful to be getting all this advice from people who don't have the problem you've described.


That's the beauty of it being a syndrome. Some people could coach me on this, I could coach them on the merits of wearing pants in public. :roll:

Willard wrote:
I can't tell you how to fix it, and I'm not sure that it can be fixed (short of Jesus healing you of your Autism), because I believe it to be part of the Autistic processing deficiencies. We are simply under-equipped when it comes to verbal sparring under pressure. While we process the first barrage (be it accusation, angry assertion, insult, or what-have-you) the neurotypical opponent is already on to the fourth, fifth or sixth barrage of angry invective. We simply can't keep up, not because we lack the intelligence to counter their arguments, but because we can't process fast enough to parry one blow before the next is launched.

Having lived with this reality for years on end, one learns to simply keep one's thoughts to oneself, to internalize. When so much of one's verbal communication can be misinterpreted, due to the lack of nonverbal communications skills, it does make a person gun-shy about even bringing up the bothersome things that come up in a relationship, knowing that once that misunderstanding occurs (and it will), one will only flounder in the ensuing 'discussion'.


No, that's very true. In addition to that, especially as kids - everything we said utterly failed which bread even more conservatism in what we'll say and what we won't (which loops back to another topic - avoiding 'intelligent' conversation or factual conversation and how that turns people off in social situatioons for the most part, its another area where our adaptions continue to cause headaches). On another angle of this point, especially in my past but sometimes even now, I'm used to being able to speak what seems like perfectly plain English, 3rd or 5th grade level even when I've had to, and for some reason, whether my voice or conceptual thought structure, people literally couldn't understand a thing I was saying; almost like I needed to write it down and have someone else read it out loud at which point it would just click immediately. Its a crazy thing to experience and yes, maddening at times because it seems so magical that you have no idea where to even begin to approach a problem like that.

Willard wrote:
Short of finding the 'perfect' partner (as apparently others have) who never becomes dissatisfied or frustrated with Autistic rigidity, I can't imagine what the solution would be - I've not found it in 50 years. But maybe that's what all those 'points of compatibility' at EHarmony are for. :D

I feel like I all too easily meet women with the same problem - that's the downside, it makes me realized that while I want someone who's like to me enough to appreciate me it may not always be a good thing if they hold the same reservations (though admittedly, I've typically been the one to fold in most situations recently which is why I worry about these tendencies and what effects they have on chemisitry). Don't get me wrong, I don't want a shouting match fight per se (I think they're generally degrading and just stupid - they don't need to happen), just getting the communication out on the table, saying what we really think before it drags us down too much, and seeing that we still want to be together rather than stay ultra-polite until we walk away from things. If it comes to us getting a little bit sarcastic or ripping on eachother a bit - that's probably a good thing if its at least sparing. It seems like couples even seem to find each other somewhat of a challenge.



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25 Jun 2010, 4:28 pm

I'll give it a go. If you get advice from enough people in relationships you can probably cherry-pick what could work for you.


techstepgenr8tion wrote:

So, realizing that this is an area that I need schooling in, how do I break myself of the habit of biting my lip?]

Rehearse the confrontation in private. By the time you are with somebody long enough for an issue to come up, you should also have a feel for how she would respond. At least a good enough feel to run a mental simulation. It doesn't matter if you are all wrong. The simulation helps you psych yourself up. Rehearse many different possible outcomes. Decide you will say "x". What do you think she'll say? Come up with as many possibilities as you can. You are Big Blue, the computer that played chess by running many, many scenarios. The goal is to clarify what your issue is and to guess what her objections will be. Run many simulations. Don't just pick one thing you think she'll say. Then you'll be blindsided when she says something else. This is not to win. This is to understand both points of view.


Quote:
When's a good time to actually start the kind of conversation in 'fight' territory when something is bothering me enough?

When neither of you have anything planned in the immediate future (like neither are just about to run off to something and there is a time crunch) and you are just hanging out.
Quote:
How do you conduct a constructive fight?

By not having a goal of winning but rather having a goal of finding a compromise that works for both of you.
Quote:
I get the impression that once the lid is off the jar there's less of a hard silence over things and its much more easy for both partners to speak their minds. Mind you, I don't want fisticuffs with my partner either - just good conversation and good strategies to keep ourselves in the clear of anything unnecessarily gnawing at us over repressed use of certain social skills. Any pointers?


Yes, once things are on the table, more things can come out. My ultimate tip is not to see this as a fight that you win and she loses. In that...you both lose. (And you may lose her.) Instead, the goal is to see this as being like a diplomatic talk between two nations. Cherry-pick through history and modern politics and you can probably find examples of two nations meeting and hammering out a treaty that allows both to have some (but not all) of what they need and to live in peace with each other. Those are your role models for conflict resolution.

Bonafides: married for 20 years, we've had our fights, we've drawn up our treaties. We live in peace.



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25 Jun 2010, 6:29 pm

I was hunting around for reasonable information on "fighting fair" for a newlywed couple that I know who have asked for some advice. I'm including one of the links that I think is pretty good in this post. I also thought it might make sense to post this particular link because I think it highlights an activity that I think would be particularly difficult for someone with ASD to do:

"Understand what's really going on
When you sense that a fight is about to erupt between and your partner, try to scope out the underlying cause of the argument:

Are you or your spouse just letting off steam?
Is there something specific that you want your partner to do?
Are your angry words an expression of serious differences or conflict in your marriage?
"

I think it would be tough for someone with ASD to intuit the subtext of any given argument within a marriage. I can't say for sure how to compensate for this...other than examining if the reaction in a given disagreement seems proportional to the matter being discussed. However, in the moment, I think that may be beyond the ability of someone with ASD.

I can tell you what doesn't work, from my experience in Aspie/NT relationships: failing to provide information and/or communicate; making assumptions about "motives" and "agendas"; letting "all or nothing" kind of thinking dominate your approach. Those behaviors are toxic to any relationship, but they're extra deadly to Aspie/NT relationships.

I second the posters who've asserted that healthy relationships are about compromise, rather than "drawing a line in the sand" with your partner. The goal of conflict resolution within a loving relationship really should be finding a compromise that works for both partners. In short, its not about "winning" the argument - at least not if you want to stay together.

I'd also suggest that because an individual with ASD is probably going to have difficulty functioning effectively while having a heated argument, defining an approach to "arguing" with your partner is really important. Choosing a partner who doesn't need to yell and scream would be great, but if you've chosen someone who does tend to get emotional during a disagreement, you'll need to work together to find a way to avoid that type of escalation, as in, follow a script or routine specifically designed for conflict resolution.

And try to keep in mind that your partner really doesn't know what you know. We're not in your head, we haven't walked in your shoes, we don't understand your experience as an Aspie (in many respects) any better than you understand our experience as an NT. So when you're confused by our behavior, let us know.

http://health.discovery.com/centers/lov ... tfair.html


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techstepgenr8tion
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25 Jun 2010, 7:39 pm

Janissy wrote:
Rehearse the confrontation in private. By the time you are with somebody long enough for an issue to come up, you should also have a feel for how she would respond. At least a good enough feel to run a mental simulation. It doesn't matter if you are all wrong. The simulation helps you psych yourself up. Rehearse many different possible outcomes. Decide you will say "x". What do you think she'll say? Come up with as many possibilities as you can.

Thank you. I think for me the issue isn't fearing that I'll get my arse handed to me, I'm pretty good at stepping away if someone starts going too fast, listening, and then regaining ground. My real concern - I'm analytical to the point to where my emotions themselves even are cerebral, and on one hand it makes me real easy to get along with but at the same time it also makes me seem like I could care less at the wrong times just because I'm not per say erupting when I should (ie. I tend to think through things too easily). I'm starting to think that I should least smile to myself and be like "Ok, I'll have fun with this and just break her balls on a particular topic so she gets the point", the question at that point becomes can I treat it like that kind of argument or banter/brawl I might have with my guy friends providing that she's sturdy enough or does it need to be in a different form?



techstepgenr8tion
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25 Jun 2010, 7:55 pm

HopeGrows wrote:
Are you or your spouse just letting off steam?
Is there something specific that you want your partner to do?
Are your angry words an expression of serious differences or conflict in your marriage?[/i]"

Yeah. The second issue is something that I'd do my best to bring up at a time of peace just because I think I could get it resolved without needing the fight. The third - bad stuff, hope any relationship I get into doesn't work like that and, I have a feeling based on my priorities that if that happens a) she's holding out on the communication or b) I'm not as into her as I should be and it'll start to dawn on me majorly (which...I really hope I'm not married and finding that out with someone). The first - I'm sure there are constructive ways to do that, I would think if I could find a vigorously competitive sport that my partner is good at and we could have it out in that fashion that'd be the wisest way to go.

HopeGrows wrote:
I think it would be tough for someone with ASD to intuit the subtext of any given argument within a marriage. I can't say for sure how to compensate for this...other than examining if the reaction in a given disagreement seems proportional to the matter being discussed. However, in the moment, I think that may be beyond the ability of someone with ASD.

I feel like I have the Lesse Faire problem - ie. everything is everything, I can read that there is a problem, I can tell what it is, often enough in the past (other relationships) I felt like it was something too far outside my scope and I'd just let it go. Hopefully with the right person that shouldn't be a problem.

HopeGrows wrote:
I can tell you what doesn't work, from my experience in Aspie/NT relationships: failing to provide information and/or communicate; making assumptions about "motives" and "agendas"; letting "all or nothing" kind of thinking dominate your approach. Those behaviors are toxic to any relationship, but they're extra deadly to Aspie/NT relationships.

Absolutely. I'm typically pretty good at laying information traps (getting people to admit things they didn't realize they were admitting) and dialing in on problems. A lot of my friends really believe that the way of the strong (as opposed to the weak) is confront first - they correct me saying that its a world of instant gratification and that I need to be a man and assert my authority with people without good information - they're more than welcome to have fun with that, I'll just do what I do and have at the popcorn when they're acting the fool(s). Then again when I look at my guy friends - they're into going to clubs, picking up bar flys or finding girls who are very trendy with things, I tend to do well with a girl who's as prude and methodical as I am - they're out there but again, chemistry seems to be a challenge, that may not always be the case, it may not be right now with the girl I'm talking to. I guess I just need to wait and see.

HopeGrows wrote:
I second the posters who've asserted that healthy relationships are about compromise, rather than "drawing a line in the sand" with your partner. The goal of conflict resolution within a loving relationship really should be finding a compromise that works for both partners. In short, its not about "winning" the argument - at least not if you want to stay together.

Agreed 100%.

HopeGrows wrote:
I'd also suggest that because an individual with ASD is probably going to have difficulty functioning effectively while having a heated argument, defining an approach to "arguing" with your partner is really important. Choosing a partner who doesn't need to yell and scream would be great, but if you've chosen someone who does tend to get emotional during a disagreement, you'll need to work together to find a way to avoid that type of escalation, as in, follow a script or routine specifically designed for conflict resolution.

I get the impression on that note, particularly with the way I handle myself - having a partner that respects me and having a partner who'll get in a shouting match with me, its almost mutually exclusive. Very difficult to imagine anyone who can actually 'see' me doing that.

HopeGrows wrote:
And try to keep in mind that your partner really doesn't know what you know. We're not in your head, we haven't walked in your shoes, we don't understand your experience as an Aspie (in many respects) any better than you understand our experience as an NT. So when you're confused by our behavior, let us know.

http://health.discovery.com/centers/lov ... tfair.html

I consider myself very lucky in this regard - I have just a slightly thicker dose of NT dating issues, the aspie issues really don't seem to come up at all, at least in any other external sense than just not being as easy for other people to read.