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Angnix
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01 Jul 2010, 7:54 am

I might have asked this before or a similar question?

But anyway, is there a difference between Social Cues and Non-verbal Cues? I thought they were the same and I actually was picking up on most Non-verbal Cues, but not long ago, my therapist told me flat out I don't pick up on Social Cues.

Google isn't telling me anything.

Basically, is he telling me I'm reading faces wrong? Or is it something else?


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peterd
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01 Jul 2010, 8:09 am

It's not just faces, although that's a lot of it. Eyes... mouths,,, hands... body postures... the tones in people's voices. We're blind, mostly, to the whole damn lot of it - and they blame us for their blindness to our not getting it.



thechadmaster
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01 Jul 2010, 8:56 am

Angnix wrote:
Google isn't telling me anything.


of course not, google is run by neurotypicals, we are lucky that we even have the privilege of using their service :lol:

but seriously, it took six months to get a google voice invite, i read blogs that talk about people getting them in days.


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marshall
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01 Jul 2010, 9:13 am

Non-verbal cues (tone of voice, facial expressions, body language) are a *type* of social cue. I think social cues also entail other un-written social rules.



ladyrain
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01 Jul 2010, 12:49 pm

marshall wrote:
Non-verbal cues (tone of voice, facial expressions, body language) are a *type* of social cue. I think social cues also entail other un-written social rules.

It seems that social cues involve understanding 'why', and knowing an appropriate response, which is more complex than just recognising non-verbal signals.

I have often thought that I had 'missed the plot' in a situation, without understanding why, or been left wondering why someone had behaved in a certain way, but always assumed it was because people are strange and often unfathomable.



Kiseki
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01 Jul 2010, 12:59 pm

How can you know whether or not you pick up on social cues? I feel that I understand what is going on but that I'm on the periphery and constantly saying things others get offended by...



Willard
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01 Jul 2010, 1:53 pm

There are so many things that constitute 'social cues' - some are nonverbal, some are verbal phrases or types of phrases that initiate conversation, or lead a conversation in a particular direction, or signal that's its time to wrap it up.

I had a visitor a few days ago, whom I may have given the 'bum's rush' without realizing it. Only after he was gone did it occur to me that he may not have been done chatting and that I may have made it seem as though I wanted him to leave, because I remained standing and never invited him to sit. At the time it didn't occur to me, as I stand most of the time, unless a task requires that I sit. But it may have seemed as though I were sending him a signal that I was ready for him to leave, since I did nothing to make him comfortable. I'm not even sure whether I may not have unconsciously done it intentionally - I'm so out of touch with social cues, I don't even recognize my own, until I analyze them after the fact. :roll:



marshall
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01 Jul 2010, 1:56 pm

ladyrain wrote:
marshall wrote:
Non-verbal cues (tone of voice, facial expressions, body language) are a *type* of social cue. I think social cues also entail other un-written social rules.

It seems that social cues involve understanding 'why', and knowing an appropriate response, which is more complex than just recognising non-verbal signals.

I have often thought that I had 'missed the plot' in a situation, without understanding why, or been left wondering why someone had behaved in a certain way, but always assumed it was because people are strange and often unfathomable.

Can you remember a specific example? If it's too hard to think of one that's fine. I'm just curious.

I don't usually find people's behavior unfathomable. I just find it really hard to imitate their patterns in order to fit in. Perhaps I don't even try to interact enough to where I have any specific recollection of unknown motives or mysterious behavior.



League_Girl
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01 Jul 2010, 1:58 pm

I guess I can read non verbal cues. I can see crying and laughing. When someone is yelling and crying, I know they are upset. It seems like it's the NTs who can't seem to pick that up. Or they just don't care as I was told one time here. But laughing doesn't always mean they thought it was funny or thought I was telling a joke, laughing can also mean "I can't believe she said that" or it's an embarrassment laughter or a "That's so cute" laughter, that I have troubles with.

The social cues, it's things like you know what is appropriate to say and what isn't appropriate to say. Like if you knew on your own without having to be told that asking if anyone has been raped is a personal question and must not be asked, that's a social cue there you picked up.



Angnix
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01 Jul 2010, 2:08 pm

I need to ask what social cues he thinks I'm not picking up.


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reh
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01 Jul 2010, 2:38 pm

Cues as a way of exchanging information, which could be used as a definition of language. Your therapist may have meant social cues as social language. Social language encompasses a wide spectrum of interactions, one of which would be non verbal language, therefore, reverting to cues, non verbal cues are one of transmitters of social cues.

Here's a page on social language.


http://www.asha.org/public/speech/development/pragmatics.htm



katzefrau
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04 Jul 2010, 12:39 am

marshall wrote:
Non-verbal cues (tone of voice, facial expressions, body language) are a *type* of social cue. I think social cues also entail other un-written social rules.


right - i think "rules of behavior" is maybe more apt. i don't think it's solely about reading facial expressions and body language. it's about understanding what sorts of things are appropriate to say and how you're supposed to act toward people and what kinds of things might seem strange to them or make them ill at ease.

people misread me a lot, so i think using the right body language has got to be in here too, and if it means nothing to you, you're going to "speak" the wrong things.


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04 Jul 2010, 8:44 am

Angnix wrote:
But anyway, is there a difference between Social Cues and Non-verbal Cues? I thought they were the same and I actually was picking up on most Non-verbal Cues, but not long ago, my therapist told me flat out I don't pick up on Social Cues.


Yes, definitely different than non-verbal. I know this from experiences with message boards. There's some sort of social cues I was missing out on (back when I participated at those boards) that other people understood. It wasn't non-verbal. We were all in the same lack-of-non-verbals boat. In a verbal only environment, there were these social rules that I wasn't picking up on. Somehow, in the verbal exchanges, others were picking up on those social rules.


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Kiseki
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04 Jul 2010, 8:54 am

League_Girl wrote:
I guess I can read non verbal cues. I can see crying and laughing. When someone is yelling and crying, I know they are upset. It seems like it's the NTs who can't seem to pick that up. Or they just don't care as I was told one time here. But laughing doesn't always mean they thought it was funny or thought I was telling a joke, laughing can also mean "I can't believe she said that" or it's an embarrassment laughter or a "That's so cute" laughter, that I have troubles with.

The social cues, it's things like you know what is appropriate to say and what isn't appropriate to say. Like if you knew on your own without having to be told that asking if anyone has been raped is a personal question and must not be asked, that's a social cue there you picked up.


Ah, this makes sense. I feel like I can understand non-verbal cues fine but I am constantly doing socially-inappropriate things. I can remember being 17 or so and with my mom at the mall. Some lady she knew came by with her baby and I said something like "Oh, your baby's head is really big." My mom had to tell me that was rude to say.

I do stuff like that all the time.



ladyrain
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04 Jul 2010, 7:39 pm

marshall wrote:
I don't usually find people's behavior unfathomable. I just find it really hard to imitate their patterns in order to fit in. Perhaps I don't even try to interact enough to where I have any specific recollection of unknown motives or mysterious behavior.
I don't think they're unfathomable any more. :) Now I recognise they are following rules which they understand, even if I don't.

I wonder if social rules are mostly about taming extrovert tendencies (if 75% of people are extroverts as the statistics imply).

It seems possible that social cues are less important, or possibly just different, in male/male interactions, and inordinately important in female/female interactions.



ladyrain
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04 Jul 2010, 8:14 pm

marshall wrote:
ladyrain wrote:
It seems that social cues involve understanding 'why', and knowing an appropriate response, which is more complex than just recognising non-verbal signals.

Can you remember a specific example? If it's too hard to think of one that's fine. I'm just curious.

Not a specific example, but a generalised, perhaps exaggerated scenario about conversations, based on things I have come across over the past months. (I was previously oblivious to all of it, so it's still speculative.)

It appears that it may be inappropriate to tell people anything unless they inquire about it. To do so is considered arrogant, vain, big-headed, whatever. So what you have to do is convey the fact that you have something to say, and this is done by body language and expression. So you portray a certain state, happy, sad, angry, until someone enquires. At which point you can reveal your information, but it must be done as part of a reciprocal exchange, at least initially.

A notices that B keeps scanning the room with a big smile on her face.
A: "B, you look happy."
B: "I am." smug grin
A: "Do tell."
B: "Well, if you want to know ..." slightly downcast look
A: "Yes, definitely."

This to-ing and fro-ing can go on a while, until eventually B tells all, and A makes appropriate comments and approving noises. What B has to say might actually be quite mundane, compared to all the preceding negotiations.

Of course, in some situations, a little bit of the above is politeness, to see if someone else has time and interest. But it can be a required ritual, especially in clique situations, with the person who considers themselves superior, and therefore most deserving of attention, being the one to string out the interaction.

If initial facial expressions etc are not noticed, it is acceptable to do things to draw attention to yourself, for example, noisy paper shuffling, extravagant sighs, even to the extent of comments such as "No-one ever notices me." or noisy stomps and door-slamming. (Hence attention-seeking, which I think distress and melt-downs are often interpreted as.)

It is also acceptable to engage someone, even a stranger, in inconsequential small-talk, but leading them to the point where they enquire about what it is you wish to say.



If I have something to say, I say it, or I keep it hidden. And if someone wants me to know something, I expect them to tell me. If they don't, then I assume they don't want me to know.

Which gives a different scenario:

C, finally notices that B is getting really irritating, shuffling things around, making unnecessary noise. (C has completely missed any preceding 'signals'.)

C: "Is there a problem?" quick glance at B
B: "Well ..."
C: "What's up?" said kindly, turning towards B.

B, frustrated at the effort it took to get attention, and taken aback by the abrupt response, rapidly blurts out something in order to keep C's attention. C listens. B, not getting any signals, carries on, but gets a bit incoherent, then stops. C thinks, makes a constructive observation. B is confused, doesn't say any more. C turns away and probably wanders off.

Sometime later C comes back. B doesn't say anything, but C thinks there may be a distinct chill in the air. This is odd, since C thinks they had a very productive chat earlier.
C concludes people can be incomprehensible. :)