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Tales
Snowy Owl
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14 Jul 2010, 5:07 am

I have been pondering over this issue quite a while...

I read the bible often and while searching for the truth in life. I just had this weird thinking.

Were Adam and Eve somewhat autistic or mildly autistic before they ate the fruit of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil.?

I inferred that before they ate that fruit, I was guessing that their state of mind was somewhat very similar to an autistic for they do not have that self awareness that NT say that it's inborn.

But after they ate the fruit, they first time know, "shame" .etc

Anyone has any opinions?



Sand
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14 Jul 2010, 6:19 am

Tales wrote:
I have been pondering over this issue quite a while...

I read the bible often and while searching for the truth in life. I just had this weird thinking.

Were Adam and Eve somewhat autistic or mildly autistic before they ate the fruit of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil.?

I inferred that before they ate that fruit, I was guessing that their state of mind was somewhat very similar to an autistic for they do not have that self awareness that NT say that it's inborn.

But after they ate the fruit, they first time know, "shame" .etc

Anyone has any opinions?


I have heard that Adam and Eve were suppose to have been perfect before they munched on that rotten fruit which educated them. If they were perfect then only autistic people are perfect, something a few people on this site seem to believe.



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14 Jul 2010, 7:15 am

No, they were not autistic, due mainly to the fact that they didn't exist.



AngelRho
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14 Jul 2010, 7:25 am

They weren't autistic. The differences of mind that we think of as aberrant DO result from the effects of sin inherited from Adam and Eve. In a perfect state of existence, these aberrations cannot exist. Let's suppose for a minute that the autistic brain is actually the superior brain. Well, what does that say about NTs? Someone is always wrong and someone is always right in every situation or argument. In a perfect state, there IS no argument because all things are in agreement.

I think what Adam and Eve WERE were very child-like, which is a trait they'd have in common with aspies and autistics. But having one or two traits in common doesn't make someone party to a condition.

In preparing for a (doomed) teaching career, I took a lot of psychology classes. I also have my master's degree. But knowing a lot about psychology and having a master's degree doesn't make me a professional therapist.



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14 Jul 2010, 7:31 am

AngelRho wrote:
I think what Adam and Eve WERE were very child-like, which is a trait they'd have in common with aspies and autistics.

That's a spectrum trait now? :?



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14 Jul 2010, 8:06 am

Tales wrote:
I have been pondering over this issue quite a while...

I read the bible often and while searching for the truth in life. I just had this weird thinking.

Were Adam and Eve somewhat autistic or mildly autistic before they ate the fruit of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil.?

I inferred that before they ate that fruit, I was guessing that their state of mind was somewhat very similar to an autistic for they do not have that self awareness that NT say that it's inborn.

But after they ate the fruit, they first time know, "shame" .etc

Anyone has any opinions?


You really should not take myth stories so literally.

ruveyn



Sand
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14 Jul 2010, 11:31 am

ruveyn wrote:
Tales wrote:
I have been pondering over this issue quite a while...

I read the bible often and while searching for the truth in life. I just had this weird thinking.

Were Adam and Eve somewhat autistic or mildly autistic before they ate the fruit of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil.?

I inferred that before they ate that fruit, I was guessing that their state of mind was somewhat very similar to an autistic for they do not have that self awareness that NT say that it's inborn.

But after they ate the fruit, they first time know, "shame" .etc

Anyone has any opinions?


You really should not take myth stories so literally.

ruveyn


It is amazing to me that anybody above the intelligence of a carrot takes the Adam and Eve myth seriously.



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14 Jul 2010, 2:57 pm

Sand wrote:
It is amazing to me that anybody above the intelligence of a carrot takes the Adam and Eve myth seriously.


Monkey see, monkey do. People will mimic the idiocy just for the sake of being like other people.


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14 Jul 2010, 3:05 pm

Considering that autism is frequently caused by partial or total deletions of certain genes, it is unlikely that they would have been autistic.


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14 Jul 2010, 3:11 pm

John_Browning wrote:
Considering that autism is frequently caused by partial or total deletions of certain genes, it is unlikely that they would have been autistic.


Considering that they're fictional storybook characters, it's extremely unlikely that they would have been autistic since the concept wasn't around back then.


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14 Jul 2010, 4:59 pm

Tales wrote:
Were Adam and Eve somewhat autistic or mildly autistic before they ate the fruit of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil.?

They weren't autistic for these reasons:

1. Before the original sin, everything was perfect, and autism is part of the world's degeneration because of it, therefore they couldn't have been autistics.

2. Autism, should have been, either a desease, God's punishment from earlier generation's sins or depending on how severe, demon possesion, similar to the cases described in the gospels, therefore they couldn't have been autistics.

3. They were naive and innocent, and it can be said, they were just that, as they didn't know anything and everything was new for them, and they didn't grew up as children but created as adults, an example of this can be seen in the movie The Island with Ewan McGregor.


Quote:
I inferred that before they ate that fruit, I was guessing that their state of mind was somewhat very similar to an autistic for they do not have that self awareness that NT say that it's inborn.

But after they ate the fruit, they first time know, "shame" .etc

They were sheltered from knowledge and forbidden to know more than what they were indoctrinated to. And more like, forbidden to gain knowledge of alternative ideas, different that those they learned, because said information is dangerous, example of this are totalitarian regimes, which they censor anything contrary to their own ideas.


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16 Jul 2010, 12:48 pm

thank god adam and eve rebelled. otherwise we'd still be living in the trees with no IQ whatsoever


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16 Jul 2010, 2:15 pm

richardbenson wrote:
thank god adam and eve rebelled. otherwise we'd still be living in the trees with no IQ whatsoever

I believe there are good questions regarding the issue, what if the fall never had happened? would humankind have developed technology still? Without the fall would humanity not need of technology and science to know and solve things because everything is perfect and have direct comunication with God? Would people still be walking around naked? Would the earth be extremely overpopulated given birth rates without problems and everyone being immortal? Does this posits a logical problem?


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16 Jul 2010, 5:15 pm

greenblue wrote:
richardbenson wrote:
thank god adam and eve rebelled. otherwise we'd still be living in the trees with no IQ whatsoever

I believe there are good questions regarding the issue, what if the fall never had happened? would humankind have developed technology still? Without the fall would humanity not need of technology and science to know and solve things because everything is perfect and have direct comunication with God? Would people still be walking around naked? Would the earth be extremely overpopulated given birth rates without problems and everyone being immortal? Does this posits a logical problem?


That's a hard question to answer.

I think given the state of the world there'd be no NEED for technology. I mean, what is the point of technology? Primarily, at it's most basic level, the point is to make our lives easier. Well, if we have to construct machines to make our lives easier, what is it about the world that makes our lives so difficult?

Science is sh!t. No, really, the two words have the same root word, which basically means "separated from." We take something apart, observe it, draw conclusions from our observations. And very often these observations are helpful. Helpful for what? Well, there's curing diseases, for one. Understanding the role of microorganisms helps us understand things like fermentation, how it is food/water may become tainted (like botulism from certain preserved foods), and so on which in turn helps us understand how to prevent disease as well as how to cure it. We're always looking at the stars because their positions reveal the celestial yearly calendar--you CAN reliably plan the planting and harvesting of crops by the constellations, for example. They don't, however, promise that you'll find your true love tomorrow and have success at the office. As far as how it really concerns us right here, astronomy is one of the most useless sciences, and yet perhaps the most fascinating. So I think it's possible that MAYBE we'd have had a fascination with the stars and possibly develop the means to study the workings of outer space. But as far as science to explore the hows and whys of physical existence, somehow I doubt it would ever have become an issue. There'd have been no need had we remained in Eden.

We WOULD still be walking around naked had we not known that we SHOULD put clothes on. That kind of knowledge came as a result of the first act of disobedience. Before my wife and I got married up to the point when we had children, we rarely put on many clothes at all if we were just hanging around the apartment or the house. However, moving up in the world requires a little more social interaction than I like, so one must always be prepared for the inevitable unannounced visitor. Personally, I like the idea of chilling out all day in my birthday suit, though.

Overpopulation: This is the one that's got me stumped. I really don't know. I guess if you think of it logically, you have to say that if all people and creatures are immortal, then there need not be any concerns with extinction. But if death is the end reality of life, then it IS necessary that we reproduce sexually. Without reproduction, there wouldn't be any continued existence of mankind, which would have defeated the purpose of creation. I think Adam was aware of this on some level, hence his faith in God to grant him forgiveness for taking the fruit from the tree of [morality]. Note that it isn't until after this act that God reveals to Eve that women will bear children through painful labor. It is the female "curse" that she must perpetuate the ritual of the tree, that children be born in their innocence, take part in sinful human nature, and return to God (or not) in order to receive forgiveness. Those who DON'T do so engage in the same act of rebellion as Satan and thus suffer the same penalty of eternal separation from God. It seems to me that overpopulation is the end result of human depravity: When we have fixed all our problems ourselves without asking God's help or acknowledging God as the source of all knowledge, then we face God's wrath through our OWN destruction of the world.

So what will YOU be doing when the plague breaks out again?

;)

So logically, my conclusion is that we wouldn't even be here if the fall had never happened. Adam and Eve never would have had to die, which also meant they'd never have to reproduce.

The other side of the coin is that if they were intended to follow the same commandment of the rest of creation, "be fruitful and multiply," then the story might have been slightly different. Childbearing wouldn't be difficult the way it often is. And yes, there IS that little problem with immortality. But that ignores the fact God issued a simple moral code with Adam and Eve: Don't eat from THAT tree. With morality comes responsibility to pass it on to the next generation. It could have happened (hypothetically, of course) that had Adam and Eve succeeded in avoiding the Tree, it would have been their duty to instruct their children the same. Inevitably it would have happened that their children, grandchildren, or even great-grandchildren faced the same temptation. It COULD be (I don't know, just guessing) Adam and Eve, having been spared destruction by resisting temptation and thus representing the entirety of the human race, would not have passed on a sin-nature to any children who DID fall. And because sin ORIGINATED with Adam, God would have not been under the same obligation to forgive and stay His punishment had sin originated from his children. So it would be the child (an adult child, btw) had no excuse to consume the fruit himself, upon which the child would have dropped dead on the spot in order to prevent the rest of humanity from becoming contaminated with the effects of sin. So given the fact that a vast number of human beings are given the choice, odds are not likely that the human population would EVER grow to be particularly large, with the Tree making sure that population is kept within a livable level.

The Bible doesn't tell us what WOULD have happened, only what DID happen. Anyone else's explanation, if you can come up with a better one, would certainly be interesting!



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16 Jul 2010, 7:16 pm

AngelRho wrote:
That's a hard question to answer.

I think there is the problem that humanity's potential would have been a great waste, if the need for technology, science, philosophy and arts, either of those not been an issue, not a necessity, the problem is, according to the idea, that humans would have been just like sheep, and without being able to think. I mean, there is the problem related to the concept of original sin which they were forbidded to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, does that mean that knowledge was censored, such as in a totalitarian regime, in which knoweledge of some stuff is taboo? it could be said that they weren't allowed to know more than they needed, but that seems a waste, and this utopia, might seem distopic to some.

And if they are not allowed to think, then how can they explore? as people need some freedom, and often they need to go beyond what is considered taboo to understand some things.

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Nakedness

well, if all people were naked and no need for clothes because there will be no shame and no physical reason to do so, then fashion would not exist at all, and arts related to, a part from the appreaciation that exists towards nudity, wether eroticism or artistic, and all of that would not exist, so in that regard, it would be a shame. Also, the idea is that nakedness was something normal, supposedly for Adam and Eve, and then, suddenly, after the fall, it is so shameful and so wrong, and the Bible condemns nudity later, especially between different sexes, and the issue is why a sudden change of view about a natural aspect because of sin.

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So logically, my conclusion is that we wouldn't even be here if the fall had never happened. Adam and Eve never would have had to die, which also meant they'd never have to reproduce.

The other side of the coin is that if they were intended to follow the same commandment of the rest of creation, "be fruitful and multiply," then the story might have been slightly different. Childbearing wouldn't be difficult the way it often is. And yes, there IS that little problem with immortality.

Then there lies the problem, why God made creatures, including humans with the ability to reproduce and why he commanded them to multiply, given that that would lead to an extreme overpopulation because no creature ever dies?


Quote:
The Bible doesn't tell us what WOULD have happened, only what DID happen. Anyone else's explanation, if you can come up with a better one, would certainly be interesting!

No, it doesn't, but ignoring this seems to be some sort of a cop-out, though, I mean, the issue seems valid as it leads to question the validity of the story of the fall and the idea of a paradise and its implications, as well as God's omnipotence and benevolence, how much sense does it make or doesn't and the logic behind it.

One issue though is that following the premise of the fall, it can be said that that was inevitable to happen, as if it wasn't for the tree, it would have been through another way, given the devil, therefore it would have happened anyway, so the question lies, why is that inevitable, especially towards an omnipotent being, and if that was part of the plan, what does that says about the benevolence? And what about Omnisapience? Wouldn't he know the inevitable will happen, or did he just allowed it because he wanted to?


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16 Jul 2010, 7:34 pm

"Science is s**t" A wonderful way to encapsulate the entire idiotic basic motivation of complete fools.