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Sand
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16 Jul 2010, 7:34 pm

"Science is s**t" A wonderful way to encapsulate the entire idiotic basic motivation of complete fools.



richardbenson
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16 Jul 2010, 7:43 pm

greenblue wrote:
richardbenson wrote:
thank god adam and eve rebelled. otherwise we'd still be living in the trees with no IQ whatsoever

I believe there are good questions regarding the issue, what if the fall never had happened?
well if it never happend we wouldnt be aware of anything exept eating, and possibly getting some arse everyonce inawile. i doubt we'd even care if it was raining on our heads

greenblue wrote:
would humankind have developed technology still?
maybe simple technologys. no fancy knot tying here

greenblue wrote:
Without the fall would humanity not need of technology and science to know and solve things because everything is perfect and have direct comunication with God?
no because we would be anaware. we would have no knowlege


greenblue wrote:
Would people still be walking around naked?
probably, i mean unless our kind devouped all those complex brain functions like speech and empathy and stuff

greenblue wrote:
Would the earth be extremely overpopulated given birth rates without problems and everyone being immortal?
omg we have this problem today

greenblue wrote:
Does this posits a logical problem?
not for me


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Wombat
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17 Jul 2010, 4:00 am

Before they ate from the "tree of knowledge" then they didn't know right from wrong, right?

So they covered their private parts with fig leaves.

Why is that? They were the only people in the world. Does that mean that husband and wife should not see each other naked?

Think about this. They were literally "born yesterday" and without knowledge.

God said "Don't eat of this tree" but then he sent or allowed "the serpent" to tempt Eve.
Where did the serpent come from? God had just made the world so he must have made the serpent too. God is all knowing and can see the future so he KNEW what was coming.

But after he had suckered them into eating the fruit he cursed them and all their decedents to hell.
They and all of their decedents deserve to go to hell and be tortured forever.
This is "original sin". Just for being born you deserve eternal pain.

Isn't god a great guy?



Sand
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17 Jul 2010, 6:28 am

Wombat wrote:
Before they ate from the "tree of knowledge" then they didn't know right from wrong, right?

So they covered their private parts with fig leaves.

Why is that? They were the only people in the world. Does that mean that husband and wife should not see each other naked?

Think about this. They were literally "born yesterday" and without knowledge.

God said "Don't eat of this tree" but then he sent or allowed "the serpent" to tempt Eve.
Where did the serpent come from? God had just made the world so he must have made the serpent too. God is all knowing and can see the future so he KNEW what was coming.

But after he had suckered them into eating the fruit he cursed them and all their decedents to hell.
They and all of their decedents deserve to go to hell and be tortured forever.
This is "original sin". Just for being born you deserve eternal pain
Isn't god a great guy?


These very obvious points have been gone over .uncountable times at this site with no effect on people who have been mentally distorted to swallow nonsense. They cannot think properly.



AngelRho
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17 Jul 2010, 7:36 am

Wombat wrote:
Before they ate from the "tree of knowledge" then they didn't know right from wrong, right?


Common misconception. One of the biggest features of the fall is what the temptation WAS that led to it. God laid out only ONE possible sin, which was consuming the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Obviously they DID know right from wrong, else Satan would have had nothing to challenge Eve on. It may not have been "10 Commandments" kind of right and wrong, but they did know there was that ONE thing they weren't supposed to do.

The challenge of the serpent was that Adam and Eve would be equal with God. The implication, I think, is that they might also be "superior" to God. And because God loves you, He'd never kill you over something that silly, right?

So while God's creation in Adam and Eve was perfect, the trap set by the serpent was to tempt them with what they already had. If Adam and Eve were male and female representations of God Himself, they were already LIKE God and possessed His reasoning ability, creative power, and freedom to make choices. Being free from a sinful nature put them above being murderous, child-raping lunatics and, hence, incapable of sin just as God is incapable of sin. And already being equal with God in those respects, the trap was set that a full knowledge of good and evil would somehow make them better than they were. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right? That's what Adam and Eve set out to do--raising their status, and though they might not have known it at the time, it equated with a defiant act of attempting to rise above God. Not only is it arrogant, it is impossible. Adam and Eve had no clue what it was they were really doing, but they DID know that it wasn't right to eat that fruit.

Greenblue: See, I don't think that we'd have been just like sheep. There are many (I used to think this way, too) that believe that there was no labor, no work in maintaining the Garden of Eden, and that the result of sin's curse on us is that we'll toil every day and yet the ground we work will only grow weeds (thorns and thistles to be exact). They believe that we continually live under this curse today. Before anyone "strawman's" me, I'm referring to things I learned at church, and I doubt my church was the only one that taught this.

This common view is incorrect because it ignores the fact that Adam was created in part to care for the Garden. That meant he HAD work to do, although the Bible doesn't spell out the nature of that work other than naming all the animals in it. Eve was created as a suitable companion, a co-manager so to speak. This view also ignores a prophecy concerning Noah that says Noah will deliver us from the curse. The curse was obviously lifted because, on a fundamental level, farming isn't all that hard! I live in the Mississippi Delta, so I'm used to driving down the road between corn fields, cotton fields, soybeans, rice, and catfish. Farming is a constant effort of maintenance, but by and large once the seeds come up, there isn't much to do but maintain irrigation and wait.

Just the sheer fact that Adam had work to do means we would have still been independent minds. I don't think that God created us for the purpose of being mindless robots. God's mind is independent, and if we are created in His image, then so our own minds must be. Being free from a sinful nature, nothing they would have done could have been wrong. I think we have such a hard time imagining it because we are so used to the world we live in as it is. And they were allowed to gain knowledge. It was a specific TYPE of knowledge that appears to be censored--Good and Evil. The trouble with the "totalitarian regime" premise is that God DID provide the Tree, and they WERE allowed to eat from it. God's instruction was that death would be the result of it. So I don't think God had mindless robots in mind when He created Adam and Eve.

What God DID want, as is evident through reading all of scripture as a whole, was people who are WILLING to follow God's commands as sheep. I can understand perfectly well how this is distasteful to most people. However, that sentiment is the result of sinful, rebellious human nature that is still seeking to be superior to God--in effect still the same sin committed in the Garden that caused the fall in the first place. Believers recognize that God's way is the best way and follow God the way sheep follow their shepherd (to borrow from ancient imagery). The psalm "The Lord is my shepherd" gives a pretty clear picture of what that means. We are free to act within our purpose, to do what is right, to explore our world, to be fruitful according to our abilities. And yet we still fall under the protection and care of God who allows us to be who we are.

It seems dystopian to you because you aren't taking into account a sinless human nature that knows what paradise OUGHT to be like. You are operating on the assumption that your idea of perfection is a picture of true perfection itself. As long as you possess a sinful nature, you cannot have the picture of perfection or "utopia." Through faith, however, what you CAN do is seek God's truth and follow His teachings. By tuning one's mind in that way, it becomes easier to imagine the paradise God intended (not what WE intend) and what the promise of a new paradise in Heaven will be like.



AngelRho
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17 Jul 2010, 7:41 am

Sand wrote:
"Science is sh**" A wonderful way to encapsulate the entire idiotic basic motivation of complete fools.


Hey, I'm not the one who invented the words!



ruveyn
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17 Jul 2010, 8:00 am

There was no Fall. Humans are what their genes determine them to be.

ruveyn



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17 Jul 2010, 4:58 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Humans are what their genes determine them to be.

Calvinists are right then.


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17 Jul 2010, 6:08 pm

greenblue wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Humans are what their genes determine them to be.

Calvinists are right then.


For Calvinists predetermination comes from God. They had not the slightest notion of genes.

ruveyn



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17 Jul 2010, 6:44 pm

ruveyn wrote:
greenblue wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Humans are what their genes determine them to be.

Calvinists are right then.


For Calvinists predetermination comes from God. They had not the slightest notion of genes.

ruveyn

It seems that if genes determine how humans are, then that could also support the notion that predetermination comes from God, given the idea that God is behind physical laws and everything.


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Sand
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17 Jul 2010, 7:15 pm

greenblue wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
greenblue wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Humans are what their genes determine them to be.

Calvinists are right then.


For Calvinists predetermination comes from God. They had not the slightest notion of genes.

ruveyn

It seems that if genes determine how humans are, then that could also support the notion that predetermination comes from God, given the idea that God is behind physical laws and everything.


If you are determined to believe in a god that is in absolute control of everything then there is no way to escape predetermination since god controls not only the mechanisms of living creatures but also all events which react with these mechanisms. Experiment has indicated that genes function by turning off and on in reaction to environmental factors so two people with the same genes develop differently when encountering different environments. Genes do not totally predetermine the development of an individual.