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dragonfish
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09 Aug 2010, 10:03 am

I have never been diagnosed but my mom and I are both very 'weird' and socially backwards, uptight and terrifyingly uncomfortable. My oldest son was diagnosed with asperger's at the age of 12 after fighting with each other, family and so-called experts about what was 'wrong' with him.

I've considered having myself diagnosed. When I go through the DSM-IV I qualify but I've always just managed to the best of my abilities. Despite my issues and emotional devastation, I'm not as severe as my son (who is now 17), so I continued to just deal with it. But now it's affecting my job.

I've always worked low-wage jobs with lower class people (sorry for the stereotype- I mean no offense). For the past ten years, I owned/operated a very successful housekeeping company. I occasionally had part time employees but mostly I just worked alone. A year and a half ago, I went to work at an insurance company. I was fired after a year. It was obvious from day one that my boss didn't like me on a personal level and hired me because there were no other applicants. Her reason for firing me, were that I didn't seem to be 'fitting in' and after a year there I should 'get it' more than I did.

Now I'm working as a reservationist in a vacation rental home company. I absolutely love my job! More than the job itself I love the company. They spoil us with full benefits including a masseuse, an on-call physicians assistant the makes house calls to home or office, free lunches once or twice a week, annual company trip to places like Puerto Rico and Prague in addition to our regular vacation time, etc. The list just goes on and on. This place and the people that work there are incredible.

Last week, after 90 days of employment, the human resources person pulled me aside, off the record and informed me that based on things she's been told and has over-heard, I am developing a reputation of being stand-offish, anti-social, difficult, defensive, don't take direction well. To my horror, I burst into tears.

I thought I was doing fantastic! I'm very nervous and socially awkward but I talk to everyone and get along with everyone, I thought. Over the past 3-4 weeks, I have noticed that no one seems quite as friendly as they did at first but I just passed it off. I thought maybe the novelty had warn off and they were being themselves without trying to put on a show and go out of their way to assist the new person all the time.

I have no idea what I could have done or said and to whom. I am equally dumbfounded by being called defensive and told that I don't take direction well. There are very, very few things I have ever liked about myself or felt confident in. One of those few things is the fact that I consider myself to be very open to constructive criticism. I really listen and appreciate it when people point things out to me that I may be doing wrong or things I may not be aware of. I don't want to do things wrong. I don't want to be a bumbling idiot. I'm very hurt and angry when people get mad at me over little things rather than just pointing out what I'm doing or that it bothers them. So when people do point things out to me, I'm very grateful and I try to communicate that. I tell them thank you and I try to follow up with them later, "So was I better this time? Is that more what you had in mind?"

When I was interviewed for this job, it was iterated over and over by several people that THE two rules were to get along with everyone and to always please your supervisors. In addition to the above, the human resources person felt the need to remind me of that several times during our 'talk'. I've gone through this past week walking egg shells and I can't figure out what I might be doing wrong or what I should change. I talk to every person I see; I'm being social and friendly even if I might seem a little awkward at times. I'm always very appreciative of help and I try to express that. I'm at a loss.

One thing I do know is that I live in a fog. I have a hard time staying organized; I find myself sitting in a daze, picking the skin off from around my fingernails until they bleed. I make more mistakes than I feel I really should considering how long I've been there and they are mostly due to time issues (because I space out and pick my fingers) or with always feeling foggy headed. When I occasionally have moments or ever rarer, days of mental clarity, I am extremely organized and productive. Yesterday, I came home from work and cleaned the house, did all the laundry, packed my son's bookbag with his new school supplies and paid the bills. Those are extremely rare times though. In this constant fog that I live in, I can't remember anything and I'm so easily confused that I daily humiliate myself.

I am scheduling an appointment to see my son's psychiatrist but I would love some practical advice from other adults or adult women on what in the world I need to change to try to be more successful at work and in life. In addition to saving my job, a friend would be nice. I haven't had one of those since high school (other than my husband- he's absolutely incredible!).

Thanks for listening and for any advice!



fermentedketchup
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09 Aug 2010, 10:40 am

Hi dragonfish! You did the right thing getting psychiatric help. Ever since I started therapy last year, I've found it easier to deal with my life issues and to realize my limitations and how to work with them. One of the most frightening things I find with having Aspergers is that you're socially blind, and most people can't see/don't understand/don't comprehend that. I work from home teaching guitar and doing data entry (of course, the two are entirely unrelated except that I do them both well--I think). It's been almost a decade since my last office job--which led to the data entry I do now--but I was lucky in that I was basically left to myself to do it. I suspect this sort of arrangement is what might suit you better, a situation where social contact is at a minimum. I know what it's like to try to fit in and just not be able to. Please note that I'm not saying throw in the towel and never socialize with anyone again, just maybe don't try so hard that it makes people around you uncomfortable and draws attention to yourself in a bad way. I've seen fellow Aspergians go this route and have no doubt myself traversed it quite a few times. If you suspect you've made a "faux pas", apologize, let it go and move on. I know, it's easier said than done, but keep in mind that desperately trying to make it right only draws more attention to your mistakes.
Again, from my own personal experience, I find self-employment much more rewarding and less frustrating than doing things the way someone else wants you to. In your present work situation, you may find yourself clashing with the status quo whether you want to or not, whereas when you ran your own business, there were no such worries. A question you might want to ask yourself, if you haven't already, is am I up to the challenges my present work situation presents? You may well be able to weather this storm, but something tells me you'll have a lot of readjusting to do if that's the case.
I hope this advice helps you. Cheers! :-)



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09 Aug 2010, 12:48 pm

dragonfish wrote:
. . . For the past ten years, I owned/operated a very successful housekeeping company. I occasionally had part time employees but mostly I just worked alone. . .

Congrats on your successful entrepreneurial endeavor! Making money in my own business is something I long to do. I am gearing up to begin offering SAT tutoring. And I'd like to have, potentially, one or two other businesses, either at the same time, or available waiting in the wings. I like the idea of not having all my eggs in the same basket, plus I also like the Fred DeLuca (Subway) approach to business: test the core idea as cheaply as possible, but also have money, time, energy so you can steadily ramp up something as it's successful.

PS Any advice you can give me on business would be appreciated.


----------------------------------------------------


I suspect your facing a poisonous environment. The other people pick up on the fact that you've been negatively labelled and shy away from you as if you're damaged goods. This is an unfair situation, and a pretty unflattering aspect of human nature. But, I have observed that social dynamic, and my guess is that's what you're facing.



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09 Aug 2010, 1:06 pm

dragonfish wrote:
. . . It was obvious from day one that my boss didn't like me on a personal level and hired me because there were no other applicants. . .

This might make for a good example of something I don't like about counselors and psychologists. They turn it all internal, when a great deal of what happens is external and just plain luck. This lady never should have hired you in the first place, or . . . or, she should have said, 'I need someone's help for just a couple of weeks. It will strictly be for three weeks.' That is, she could have been decent about it, and she wasn't.



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09 Aug 2010, 1:26 pm

One thing that continues to astonish me is how disengaged many people are from their jobs.

For example, a person who's a supervisor at a grocery store: get here on time and don't mess with me. And that really seems to be the attitude of a fair number of "supervisors."

Such a person is either hung over or just as well might be. For example, it can be so blatant and so obvious that whether to report something like a leaking faucet is 50-50. Even that might be classified as "giving me a hard time" (talk about shooting the messenger!).


-----------------------------------------


So, a job that's administrative, and is about keeping on top of the paperwork. Often, it's more that things just seems to be taken care of<-- and that's what many so-called supervisors are interested in. and no one really knows for sure Again, it is remarkable (and it's the kind of thing, that for someone with an entrepreneurial bent, would just drive them crazy!)

It is miles away from the Japanese concept of kaizen.



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09 Aug 2010, 2:04 pm

Perhaps similar to a play in poker, consider the following move to half quit and to buy yourself valuable breathing space and recharging:

'There's a family situation I have to take care of. I'm going to have to take several days off.'

[if needed]

'No, I can't tell you. It's an important family situation that I have to take care of. I just have to.'



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09 Aug 2010, 2:26 pm

Now, this is half quitting. Please don't fool yourself that it's anything less than that. It is half quitting and it might well turn into full quitting.

(The ethics, well, I guess it could be defended the important family situation is your own piece of mind! But I'd rather just acknowledge, yes, it is a defensive lie. But the ethics of that, compared to ostracizing a human being, which is what they are sliding into doing to you, doesn't even compare. Just the fact of doing it in a face-saving way, and that it's both vague and strong and matter-of-factly confident, and no, you're not going to tell more, all that helps. Basically, a social fib. And even if they suspect, they won't know. And that helps. That in and of itself saves face, really for both sides.)

And you can take 2 day, 5 day, extend it to 7 days, entirely at your choosing (but again, it is half quitting).

--------------------

The potential upside, they will miss the good work you do and be glad to have you back. Plus, kind of grudgingly admire you for confidently and skillfully standing up for yourself. And some outside chance that this will be enough of a shake-up that a person will realize the situation is wrong and matter-of-factly stand up for you, 'she's an alright person.' Outside chance, please don't count on this happening. People disappoint me all the time, group think and scapegoating, nasty stuff.

Likely, this job is not going to resurrect, it's not going to be good again. But this might buy you a couple of months where it's more tolerable, and you can look for something else in the meantime.



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09 Aug 2010, 2:39 pm

Well, I don't often do this, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say there's virtually no doubt you'll sail through the diagnostic testing - you're as Aspergian as they come. I could have almost written your post word-for-word, with the exception that I was so used to getting fired for those very same reasons, I got past being surprised by it or even dismayed - after a year of putting on the ol' neurotypical mask and pretending to be one of the humans, the stress would have worn me down so much that from that point on, it was just a waiting game to see how long it would take them to fire me.

I wish I had a message of hope to give you, but I do not believe BS and sugarcoating do anything to make an Aspergian's life any easier. The belief that you can somehow change or embark on a campaign of 'personal growth' to make yourself 'fit in' is a denial of the knowledge that Autism is a congenital neurological disorder - that means 'an atypical development of the brain present from birth'. From the moment you drew your first breath, you were hardwired to experience life and reality from a perspective slightly askew from what the people around you are experiencing - those differences shape who you are, because they affect your perceptions and reactions to everything you see, hear, feel, think - they form who you become as you grow up on every level, a pervasive developmental disorder. You don't have Autism, you ARE Autistic.

This means you are different from the people around you, and even when you think you're behaving like one of them - you're not - you can't, because you don't have the same brain wiring configuration they have. Even when you think you're doing everything just like they do, they can still sense that you're 'different'. You've already experienced this:


dragonfish wrote:
Last week, after 90 days of employment, the human resources person pulled me aside, off the record and informed me that based on things she's been told and has over-heard, I am developing a reputation of being stand-offish, anti-social, difficult, defensive, don't take direction well. To my horror, I burst into tears.

I thought I was doing fantastic! I'm very nervous and socially awkward but I talk to everyone and get along with everyone, I thought. Over the past 3-4 weeks, I have noticed that no one seems quite as friendly as they did at first but I just passed it off. I thought maybe the novelty had warn off and they were being themselves without trying to put on a show and go out of their way to assist the new person all the time.


Been there, done that. I found out at one of my last jobs that people I had worked with several times in different places and always felt were more or less friends, had been ridiculing me behind my back the whole time for being a 'weirdo' and throwing me under the bus to the management to compensate for their own inadequacies, and I'd known these people for years.

Unfortunately, the 'fog' that you describe for me takes the form of 'Inattentive ADHD' - my brain has a tendency to flit from one idea to the next in a sort of endless chain of free-association, until it hits on something I have an obsessive personal interest in, then it can focus like a laser for hours without noticing anything else that goes on in the room. Which means I work better in a closed personal space, without annoying distractions or micromanaged supervision.

Even in a profession I loved, pleasing the management was always the most impossible thing for me to do. I usually got on well with my peer group (I thought), though I didn't hang out at the water cooler, chatting about the kids' Soccer League. But the Anal Alpha pricks in management absolutely hated me because I could not conform to their mental template that dictated exactly how everything must be done. In other words, I'm an 'outside the box thinker', and no matter how much they throw that phrase around - that's not what they want. It confuses and annoys the apes. So...staying in one place never really became an option. By the time I figured out why these things kept happening, the industry I was in had changed so much my career was effectively over anyway.

All I can offer by way of advice is to look for a job where you're working with people who are more creative and casual by nature. Look for work that relates somehow to something you have a keen personal interest in. In such an environment you stand a better chance of flourishing, without being so harshly judged and having your every behavior dissected. Honestly, if I sat down in an interview and heard "THE two rules were to get along with everyone and to always please your supervisors", I'd just excuse myself and end the whole thing right there. I simply do not have the @ss-kiss gene in my DNA. I come to work to do my job to the best of my abilities and as efficiently as possible - not to rub elbows with the rest of the staff and polish my bosses shoes with my tongue.

However, once you're diagnosed, you'll have an official Disability and once an employer hires you, they'll be a bit more hesitant to fire you, for fear of discrimination suits. General consensus here, though, is that a psychologist is more likely to be sympathetic to the idea of an AS diagnosis than a Psychiatrist, since Psychiatrists have more tendency to be pill-pushers, and there is no medication effective for Asperger Syndrome.



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09 Aug 2010, 2:56 pm

dragonfish wrote:
. . . I really listen and appreciate it when people point things out to me that I may be doing wrong or things I may not be aware of. I don't want to do things wrong. I don't want to be a bumbling idiot. I'm very hurt and angry when people get mad at me over little things rather than just pointing out what I'm doing or that it bothers them. So when people do point things out to me, I'm very grateful and I try to communicate that. I tell them thank you and I try to follow up with them later, "So was I better this time? Is that more what you had in mind?" . . .


Willard, wouldn't you say that this part is two sides of a coin? This would play to strength as far as being an entrepreneur and making the aspects that matter to customers better and better. And it would play to weakness as far as the standard corporate drone job goes (even if the place has nice trappings, what really matters is how they treat people!)


And Dragonfish, you hang in there! It sounds like you definitely do have a lot to contribute!



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09 Aug 2010, 3:19 pm

@AardvarkGoodSwimmer:

Well, as a tattooist I can certainly tell you that my clients absolutely appreciate my meticulous attention to detail, and many have told me they prefer me over other pros they've been to because of my quiet demeanor, which helps keep them relaxed when the needles make them nervous and uncomfortable.

On the other hand, I was forced out of the last Walk-In shop I worked at specifically because the owners wanted a high pressure salesman who would follow customers around the lobby and make suggestions to push them into getting a tattoo, which I'm not only unable to do because of the AS, but I also feel is professionally unethical.

But I don't do it as a full time living for that very reason - I'd starve. I'm not that aggressive and my first meeting with any new client is always awkward and uncomfortable for me - some people I just won't take on as clients because their personalities rub me the wrong way, so I quote them outrageous prices to get rid of them.



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09 Aug 2010, 4:15 pm

@willard Fantastic advice. I couldn't have said it better, and believe it or not, that's not ass-kissing. Even in the relaxed office environment I used to work in, it was still enervating to endure it from day to day. Self-employment makes a huge difference for me because I call the shots and, aside from minding my p's and q's a bit, I basically get to be myself. If you can handle a more relaxed, probably lower pay no-benefits job situation and possibly work your way back into self-employment, that might work better for you, dragonfish. Give your fingernails a break.



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09 Aug 2010, 6:53 pm

Willard wrote:
. . . I was forced out of the last Walk-In shop I worked at specifically because the owners wanted a high pressure salesman who would follow customers around the lobby and make suggestions to push them into getting a tattoo, which I'm not only unable to do because of the AS, but I also feel is professionally unethical. . .

And I think it's poor business. Something as personal as a tattoo, I think a person needs to wind to a decision in their own way at their own time.



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09 Aug 2010, 7:16 pm

fermentedketchup wrote:
. . . Self-employment makes a huge difference for me because I call the shots and, aside from minding my p's and q's a bit, I basically get to be myself. . .

Fermentedketchup, I also compliment you on your businesses. Yes, that's businesses Plural, and well done! With your data entry business, I do have a question. What if you advertised for a college student (or other talented person) just for some help on one particular week? That way, you don't have the uncomfortable situation of having to fire someone. If the person is not a good listener or not sufficiently detailed-oriented, well, you didn't promise a job, you just needed some help a couple of days for one particular week. Anyway, it occurs to me this is a way you might be able to ease into hiring an employee. (Anything that becomes more permanent, you've got to do it right by tax law. Don't slide into the situation of classifying an employee as an "independent contractor" and then having the IRS come back at you several years later, which does happen. Talk to a CPA and do it right the first time. Now, I think even a couple of weeks would be fine, would be way under threshold. But there is a point where it does become an issue. And please understand that I am not a CPA, no where even close. Now, just for fun and your own personal edification, here's a link to a financial site. http://boards.fool.com/message.asp?sour ... 1&mrr=0.25 Independent contractor/employee is an ongoing issue. Please be careful.)



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09 Aug 2010, 8:34 pm

you need to get diagnosed and present that to your human resorces person with a hint about the ADA. They legally cant fire you based on your disability...but without a diagnosis you have no legal footing. Check out the american disabilities act and employment issues.


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09 Aug 2010, 8:51 pm

I had an experience like this once. I wasn't in actual danger of losing my job (since it was in the military), but it felt like it. The worst thing was they wouldn't say anything to my face. They shuffled me from one spot to another, then after a bit they put me in a third spot. Fortunately for me, my boss at that third place was very straigtforward and very cool. He told me that the people at the other places had badmouthed me, and gave me a month to prove myself there. I had no problems doing so. I think I would have been fine at either of the 2 other spots, if the people running them had bothered giving me any guidance at all. Both of the first 2 places were run like soup sandwiches.

I'd recommend asking your boss about it. Tell him that you thought you were doing fine, but someone had mentioned that they thought you weren't, and you're concerned about it. Ask if there's anything they want you to do differently, or if there are any problems they've noticed.

If you don't end up keeping the job, don't worry about it too much. No benefits are worth wondering whether people are talking about you behind your back constantly.


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10 Aug 2010, 10:19 am

You had been there a long time and nobody said anything until recently....sounds like constructive dismissal, ......contact an employment lawyer to see what your options are. You might be able to sue for unjust/constructive dismissal and possibly libel against those who talked behind your back.


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