A=440Hz “standard tuning” risks life on earth?

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just_ben
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12 Aug 2010, 4:58 pm

I don't know, I'm used to hearing tuning at A=440 now, so I might be more aggravated by something that sounds out of tune than I would be with that. Besides, since you usually play more than one note in a song, I can't really see how this is supposed to work. Surely a lot more would be required than 'aggressive tuning' to make people angry.


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leejosepho
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12 Aug 2010, 7:17 pm

just_ben wrote:
I don't know, I'm used to hearing tuning at A=440 now, so I might be more aggravated by something that sounds out of tune than I would be with that.


Being accustomed to a certain tuning is a different issue, but I understand. I have always kept my 12-string guitar tuned a half-step low to reduce tension on the neck, and I can tell the difference when playing a normally-tuned instrument. Also, we are not talking about just one note. This is more like changing keys higher or lower in Karoke. Like Moog points out next, this is about the presence or absence of an alleged dissonance -- like the "woo-woo-woo" you hear when two engines are not running at quite the same RPM -- with nature ...

Moog wrote:
If you imagine that a human being 'vibrates' (ie. exists, because everything is vibration) best at certain frequencies, then throwing frequencies at them of even a few hertz or mHz difference could have an effect.

It's like geometry; you wouldn't want an architect that couldn't tell the difference between 90 degrees and 89 degrees. His buildings would come out pretty wonky.


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AngelRho
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13 Aug 2010, 3:09 pm

OK, here's the thing about A=440 from a practical perspective.

First of all, a tuning standard is necessary for a number of reasons, not the least of which is so that orchestral instruments and, in fact, ALL instruments will sound good together.

I'm a sound designer in addition to an instrumentalist and composer. I like to think of standard tuning as an average rather fixed. When violinists finger the same note, no two finger positions can possible be exact. Close, but not exact. Pitch vibrato varies the tuning a few cents and accounts for that big, fat, ensemble sound you get while listening to a large orchestra. On a synthesizer, it is common practice to tune pairs of oscillators within 5 Hz of each other and equally sharp or flat relative to standard pitch. This results in the characteristic sum and difference frequencies of natural chorusing and is a desired effect. If you are able to create a stereo image from pairs of oscillators, panning the sharp/flat signals to extreme positions results in an expansive effect. Listen to it with headphones, and it seems like the center of the sound is in the center of your brain and spreads out into infinity.

A=440 is a standard. Nothing more, nothing less.

How about an experiment? How about I compose 2 different compositions to demonstrate the effects of standard tuning.

1st I'll compose a piece using A=440. 2nd, I'll take that composition and raise the tuning to A=444. 3rd, I'll compose a piece using A=444. 4th, I'll change that piece to A=440.

Just for fun, I'll take both the 440 pieces and the 444 pieces and show the advantage of detuning.

I'll ask which of the four pieces you like best and how each makes you feel, and perhaps that will help us draw some conclusions about the A=440 garbage



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13 Aug 2010, 3:41 pm

AngelRho wrote:
How about an experiment? ...
I'll ask which of the four pieces you like best and how each makes you feel, and perhaps that will help us draw some conclusions about the A=440 garbage


That would be an interesting exercise along the line of what you have mentioned, but I do not think that would be the same as building an entire city with all angles set from a base of 269*=horizontal and 359*=vertical. The premise in the article might well be flawed, but it is suggesting A=444Hz sets all composition to begin at "in tune" with nature.


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AngelRho
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13 Aug 2010, 6:16 pm

leejosepho wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
How about an experiment? ...
I'll ask which of the four pieces you like best and how each makes you feel, and perhaps that will help us draw some conclusions about the A=440 garbage


That would be an interesting exercise along the line of what you have mentioned, but I do not think that would be the same as building an entire city with all angles set from a base of 269*=horizontal and 359*=vertical. The premise in the article might well be flawed, but it is suggesting A=444Hz sets all composition to begin at "in tune" with nature.


I see... Well, there are some options. I could compose something based on the Golden Mean, the Fibb series, or I could simulate the randomness of wind chimes. I'm not good with mathematics, algorithmic composition or stochastic composition, so I'm not sure how to write something with those angles in mind. I'm still not sure why the standard HAS to be 444 Hz vs. 440. Why not 445? Why not 438.69?



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13 Aug 2010, 6:24 pm

AngelRho wrote:
I see...

I'm still not sure why the standard HAS to be 444 Hz vs. 440. Why not 445? Why not 438.69?


I do not know, and I had hoped someone might have chirped in about that by now.

Question: What does 4Hz represent on the scale? Half-step? Quarter? Eighth? Or, would the dissonance between 440 and 448 be readily noticeable?


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AngelRho
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13 Aug 2010, 6:45 pm

leejosepho wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
I see...

I'm still not sure why the standard HAS to be 444 Hz vs. 440. Why not 445? Why not 438.69?


I do not know, and I had hoped someone might have chirped in about that by now.

Question: What does 4Hz represent on the scale? Half-step? Quarter? Eighth? Or, would the dissonance between 440 and 448 be readily noticeable?


Well, keep in mind that the interval between pitch classes decreases as the frequency increases. So 4 Hz is a LOT in the higher frequency spectrum, while it makes little to no perceivable difference in the lower spectrum. 444Hz is still pretty sharp, since 440 is somewhere in the middle when it comes to musical frequencies. But since we're talking about the middle of the spectrum, it's only JUST ENOUGH to be noticeable and just borderline unpleasant (if you hear 440 and 444 combined, that it). Now, if you hear music played based on 444 alone, you aren't going to notice any comparable difference because all pitches in a composition are relative. A tonal piece based on just intonation will have no noticeable dissonances on chords as long as there are no chords "borrowed" from an adjacent key (just intonation bases all pitch class tunings based on some center frequency. On a synthesizer, the center key that just intonation is based on can be adjusted ensuring perfect intonation every time). In just intonation, A4 does not necessarily mean A=440. On a piano, A4 is a hard-and-fast 440 and every other pitch is tuned in perfect intervals (octaves/fifths). Technically the upper octaves are tuned sharp and the lower octaves are tuned flat. This "stretch" enhances the tuning of extremes so that it avoids inharmonicity, relying on psychoacoustics rather than absolute tuning frequencies. My only complaint about that is that some technicians will stretch the upper octaves too far. The tech that works on my piano at church tunes the upper octave nearly a semitone sharp, which is really unnerving for me. Sometimes what I'll do is instead of doubling octaves with my right hand, I'll actually substitute a major 7th because it sounds more "in tune" than the stretched octaves.

Anyway... I'll let ya know my progress as it happens. I have a feeling that using a different tuning is not really going to make a difference. But you never know...



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14 Aug 2010, 9:52 am

OK, I gave the article a closer perusal to see what exactly it is I'm working with here. I personally found a lot of it to be incomprehensible, but I'm a musician and musical artist, NOT a scientist.

The article is really based on a lot of New Age musical ideas and shows extensive bias on the part of the author. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy listening to and performing New Age piano pieces and will occasionally write my own in a similar New Age style. The pianist/composer David Lanz really sparked my interest in this area, and I have no doubts about the meditative, introspective, relaxing, and possibly even healing nature of music. HOWEVER, musical tones are perceived in their relationships to each other, and music has its own theory or "rules" as to how this is done. The casual listener won't "speak the language," but most professional musicians have a basic understanding of those relationships--the ones we refer to as consonances and dissonances.

What I'd like to start with is my proposed "method" or "limitations" on the compositions I'm about to write. I'll be using my Synclavier workstation for the sake of simplicity. In case you don't know, the Synclavier is a synth workstation that combines Additive/FM synthesis and sampling and, along with the Fairlight, was the highest-end (and most expensive) workstation available at the time (80's and 90's). It is still in use by television and film composers such Alan Silvestri, Mark Snow (X-Files), Sean Callery (24), post-production studios such as Skywalker Sound, and Pixar as a sound effects and foley tool. The FM synth cards are unique, using only 8-bit processing but are still reputed as being the finest-sounding FM synth voices. My Synclav uses the DDV sampling cards which have a cleaner sound than what you'd generally expect from most Synclavs using the older PSV cards.

So... I'm taking requests.

I'll compose a New Age-style instrumental, a Schoenbergian serial piece, a Kraftwerk-style techno piece, a pop song (if I can, depends on what kind of mood my songwriting partner is in and whether I can get her to help me make a demo for you), and an electronic piece using the Synclav FM's timbre frames (sometimes referred to as a wavetable or wavesequence on other synths) to simulate the effect of windchimes in a semi-random fashion. I'll make 3 versions of each using different tuning standards: A440, A444, and A432 as described by the article. What we should expect is the 444 and 432 versions to be more appealing and "natural." The thing is, I'm not going to TELL you which versions you're listening to.

When I finish that, I'm going to write some more instrumental works in contrasting styles. What this will do is test how certain musical aesthetics appeal to the listener and what, if any, relationship there is to standard tuning.

To make it fun, I'm taking requests on what specific types of music you'd like to hear. I'll even record, say, a Mozart sonata if you like. But I'm NOT going to realize full scores of orchestral works. I don't have much time to do this, so let's keep it simple.



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14 Aug 2010, 11:52 am

Wow, I hardly know how to respond beyond "I thank you!" I recognize some of the equipment, terms and concepts you have mentioned, but I am far from being a knowledgeable musician or accomplished artist such as you seem to be. You remind me a bit of a teacher I once had whose love of the art always showed.

AngelRho wrote:
I have no doubts about the meditative, introspective, relaxing, and possibly even healing nature of music ...
I'll be using my Synclavier workstation for the sake of simplicity ...
What we should expect is the 444 and 432 versions to be more appealing and "natural." The thing is, I'm not going to TELL you which versions you're listening to.
...
To make it fun, I'm taking requests on what specific types of music you'd like to hear ...
... let's keep it simple.


The expectation of the 444 and 432 versions being more appealing seems to me to be in agreement with at least some of the article in question even if 440 might not actually be greatly disturbing. I hardly know a sonata from a Sousa march, so I would rather you make the actual selection/s here. I think a range from wind chimes to "easy listening" to something intended to "invade the listener's space" and motivate or even agitate would provide opportunities to experience and report on a blindfolded study of 432, 440 and 444. And when the time comes, we can upload your files to my DropBox account where anyone will be able to access them unless you already some have other plan for making them available.


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AngelRho
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14 Aug 2010, 1:40 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Wow, I hardly know how to respond beyond "I thank you!" I recognize some of the equipment, terms and concepts you have mentioned, but I am far from being a knowledgeable musician or accomplished artist such as you seem to be. You remind me a bit of a teacher I once had whose love of the art always showed.

AngelRho wrote:
I have no doubts about the meditative, introspective, relaxing, and possibly even healing nature of music ...
I'll be using my Synclavier workstation for the sake of simplicity ...
What we should expect is the 444 and 432 versions to be more appealing and "natural." The thing is, I'm not going to TELL you which versions you're listening to.
...
To make it fun, I'm taking requests on what specific types of music you'd like to hear ...
... let's keep it simple.


The expectation of the 444 and 432 versions being more appealing seems to me to be in agreement with at least some of the article in question even if 440 might not actually be greatly disturbing. I hardly know a sonata from a Sousa march, so I would rather you make the actual selection/s here. I think a range from wind chimes to "easy listening" to something intended to "invade the listener's space" and motivate or even agitate would provide opportunities to experience and report on a blindfolded study of 432, 440 and 444. And when the time comes, we can upload your files to my DropBox account where anyone will be able to access them unless you already some have other plan for making them available.


I'll let you know. And this could take quite a bit of time--as long as two weeks or more.

My theory is that certain musical aesthetics have "learned" responses. We associate Schoenbergian dissonance with high sustained tension and no release. Webernesque compositions utilize more vaporous rhythmic effects which avoid a sense of a "beat" or "pulse." I find Webern's music very open and "airy," very beautiful and appealing--this happens to be the opposite of what most audiences expect from serialized compositions. Hmmmmm.... Maybe I can see if I still have my study score of Webern's Opus 21. It's a two-movement work that beautifully exemplifies the concept of klangfarbenmelodie and is written in the form of a palindrome. Webern originally intended a 3 to 4 movement full-length work but ultimately decided he'd said all he needed to say in 2 movements.

Since Webern defies expectations in Opus 21, composing a highly dissonant work that is highly contemplative, then one must reject the idea that dissonance is only capable of causing and resolving stress. The tonalists of the 18th and 19th centuries relied on strict resolution of dissonance to release tension created by dissonances. Atonalists do not have that luxury because their goal is to "liberate" the dissonance, which means as close to an avoidance of consonance as possible. An atonal work loses its effectiveness when traditional kinds of patterns appear or when consonances are perceived, whether intended or not by the composer. Atonalists are forced to be more inventive than there tonal predecessors because tension and release in atonal music can only be accomplished through novel rhythmic devices and variations of timbre and texture. My opinion is that atonal music is rejected by the listening public not because it is inherently harsh, but because composers don't work hard enough to make atonal music worth listening to.

My theater music for "The Crucible" had a very tight, rhythmic opening, and the director hired a choreographer to create a short "ballet" at the beginning of the play depicting teenage girls participating in a sort of voodoo ritual. Something that upset me was that the director wanted to paint a very dark and dismal atmosphere throughout the ENTIRE play and I was forced to scrap some of my brighter cues. Some people just don't have a sense of irony...

Anyway, I digress. The second half of this little experiment will be a series of pieces composed in a variety of "moods" and methodologies. What I expect to find is that the "mood" and method used in the composition will have more an effect than the tuning standard. We'll see, though!



A sonata is a genre of instrumental music typically consisting of 3 or 4 movements. The first movement is typically (there are exceptions) a fast movement in sonata form, which is a ternary form consisting of an exposition (A') which generally moves to the dominant tonal center (major key) or relative major (minor key), a development which varies the thematic or motivic melodic/harmonic material of the exposition (B) and functions to heighten drama or tension, and a recapitulation which features a return of the opening motives/themes but keeping them within the tonal center of the tonic key (A"). The various other movements have changed over the years, but generally include a slow movement in a simple ABA form, a dance or dance-like movement (minuet and trio in the classical period, a scherzo in the Romantic period), and a rondo or sonata rondo (ABACADABA...). A "theme and variations" might also be included.

The sonata form is important because it directly influenced many other musical forms and genres. The symphony, for example, is an expanded sonata suite for an orchestra, while the sonata is typically either for a solo instrument (usually the piano) or for solo instrument and accompaniment (a violin sonata would be for violin and piano).



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14 Aug 2010, 1:47 pm

Again, I thank you. Just reading about all of that stuff actually stirs some kind of longing within.

Take your time and post back whenever you can!


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