Are there any Aspies with Below Average IQ?

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Horus
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13 Aug 2010, 4:30 pm

angelbear wrote:
Callista-
I hope you look at this thread again, because I came across his Composite Scores and this is how it was broken down:\\

Verbal 66
Nonverbal Reasoning 84
Spatial Ability 65

Do you have any ideas on what this means?

Thanks for you help!



Which IQ test was this?


Was it a WISC???



I just took the WAIS-IV and it yields nothing but my full scale score and the four index scores. The test ITSELF says nothing about about my "nonverbal reasoning" or "spatial ability".

I'm wondering if they specify these things on the WISC for some reason because they most certainly do not on the WAIS-IV.


The psychologists who administered my tests have often commented on my "spatial ability" or "nonverbal reasoning", but not in terms of any actual scores. The scores associated with these things were found in PIQ/ the Perceptual-Organizational index on the older WAIS tests and just in the PCI on the latest version (WAIS-IV.)

Perhaps this wasn't even a Weschler IQ test that your son had.



angelbear
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13 Aug 2010, 4:58 pm

Horus-

This was the Differential Ability Scales Test. It may be used for younger children---I am not sure.

He also had core subtests with the Differential Ability Scales Test. Scores from 43 to 56 are considered average. This is how he scored. (Not sure if you or anyone else is interested, but here goes:

Verbal Comprehension 23 Measures receptive language
Naming Vocabulary 37 " expressive language
Picture Similarities 35 " nonverbal reasoning
Matrices 48 " abstract nonverbal reasoning
Pattern Construction 10 " spatial visualization
Copying 47 # perceptual motor ability



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13 Aug 2010, 9:12 pm

DSM-IV criteria for Asperger's syndrome:

(I) Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
-----(A) marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction
-----(B) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
-----(C) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
-----(D) lack of social or emotional reciprocity

(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:
-----(A) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
-----(B) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
-----(C) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
-----(D) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)

(V) There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction) and curiosity about the environment in childhood.

(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia."


"Clinically significant delay in cognitive development" means Asperger's syndrome is not a possible diagnosis for individuals with an IQ bellow 70.

If you are reading this, you must have REALLY good vision!



angelbear
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14 Aug 2010, 10:40 am

Thanks for your post StoneCold. My son does exhibit many of the Aspergers criteria. I am still not 100% convinced that the IQ test was completely accurate due to my son's age, his ADHD characteristics, and his auditory processing difficulties. Maybe it is a just a mother's instinct, and he probably is HFA or PDD, but so far, I do not feel that my son is mentally ret*d. I guess it is difficult for anyone to understand unless they have met my son. So, I guess it is a waiting game to see how things go. Thanks so much everyone!



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14 Aug 2010, 12:22 pm

n4mwd wrote:
No dear. I think a lot of doctors are getting on the politically correct bandwagon and saying that HFA and AS are the same thing. This causes a lot of misinformation to be out there. Kind of like nobody is mentally ret*d anymore, they are "intellectually challenged" or some other such nonsense. But if it will make you feel better, I will call you an aspie.

This is almost a religious argument. As in "You're not really a Christian because you don't believe X".


Perhaps you can locate for us in the diagnostic criteria the part that says someone must have an "above average" IQ for Asperger syndrome. Because the only line relevant to IQ that I am aware of is: "There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction)", which means you can't have mental retardation and meet the criteria for Asperger's, i.e. IQ>70. That is, unless you are basing your definition of AS on popular stereotypes rather than on official diagnostic criteria.

Additionally, I have read numerous academic articles that included participants with Asperger syndrome (I did my Master's paper on prosody in HFA and AS), and I can tell you that researchers have no problems including people with AS in their studies whose IQ scores are in the 80s, 90s, etc. In fact, the "average" IQ among the Asperger's participants in those studies usually hovered around 100, sometimes slightly below, in the 90's. The average IQ for the HFA participants was usually fairly similar, perhaps slightly lower, but still in the average range. Plus, regarding that "bandwagon" that doctors are jumping on, I concluded in my paper that there are no significant differences in prosody between individuals with HFA and AS, and that was based on reading something like 50-100 academic articles on the subject- not on just deciding to be politically correct. Maybe the doctors you mention are basing their opinions on actual EVIDENCE, not just political correctness, or what they want to be true.

To the OP: My verbal IQ when measured at age 3 was 20 points lower than it was at age 15 (performance IQ stayed basically the same), and I don't even have autism (I have NLD). Even among NTs, preschool IQ scores are not usually considered particularly accurate or stable, and as others have mentioned, this effect is magnified among individuals on the autistic spectrum. And that's not even taking into account whether IQ can be accurately measured in autistics PERIOD, especially those with reduced language skills (or the validity of IQ in general to measure intelligence, though that is another can of worms). I really wouldn't worry about it.


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15 Aug 2010, 5:43 pm

angelbear wrote:
Thanks for your post StoneCold. My son does exhibit many of the Aspergers criteria. I am still not 100% convinced that the IQ test was completely accurate due to my son's age, his ADHD characteristics, and his auditory processing difficulties. Maybe it is a just a mother's instinct, and he probably is HFA or PDD, but so far, I do not feel that my son is mentally ret*d. I guess it is difficult for anyone to understand unless they have met my son. So, I guess it is a waiting game to see how things go. Thanks so much everyone!


You're right, IQ tests are often inaccurate. However, as for your son's age, IQ tests compensate for that.



Callista
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15 Aug 2010, 6:11 pm

I personally would just say "autistic spectrum disorder" and leave it at that; he probably qualifies for autistic disorder as a diagnosis, but really, so do most diagnosed Aspies (I did, as a child, and the only reason I don't anymore is that my speech is now "eccentric" rather than "highly unusual"... which is why my correct diagnosis really should be PDD-NOS, not Asperger's... but that's an artifact of the diagnostic system, really). With the nonverbal reasoning score so much higher than the verbal reasoning, it seems like words are a relative weakness here, and the general tendency (as in "majority", but nowhere near everybody) is to have verbal>performance for Asperger's autism, and performance>verbal for regular autism. What throws me for a loop, though, is that "spatial reasoning" is low too, which is more of an AS trait... Really just goes to show you how crappy the current diagnostic system is, doesn't it? Like most autistics, your son simply doesn't fit into a single category.

How'd he do on the individual tasks? More importantly, how well does he apply the skills to practical things--like, for example, how well does he take care of himself; how well is he getting the hang of pre-school level skills and knowledge; how well does he communicate? This is so very early; and autistics have such odd development to begin with that all you can do is just give him good teachers, a good environment, and a low stress level, and let him learn whatever he can.

I did notice that his Matrices score was a 48, which is very near average. It may not be a coincidence that more than a few studies have shown that autistics tend to do pretty well on tests like this. (Raven's Progressive Matrices, for example, though that may not have an early-childhood version.) Matrix reasoning tests don't require a lot of language to understand and carry out; and that means they dodge a lot of autistic weaknesses. It isn't true of everyone (isn't true of me, actually; my strength is actually verbal reasoning); but in general, this kind of non-word-oriented task tends to be a bit easier... I wonder whether you might make use of that by using patterns and pictures to teach him; for example, a common strategy to show kids what's coming up is to make a schedule with pictures that are arranged in groups (for example, a picture of the kid getting up, then eating breakfast, then going to school, that kind of thing) to show what happens next. That takes advantage of an ability to understand patterns... Don't know if it'd be useful for your kid, but it's worth a try.


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Horus
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15 Aug 2010, 6:30 pm

Callista wrote:


Quote:
(Raven's Progressive Matrices, for example, though that may not have an early-childhood version.)



I think the colored progressive matrices is the version used for younger children. Without looking it up, I don't know exactly what the age cut-offs are for this one. I always tend perform squarely average on the Raven's. My scores on Raven's seems to correspond with many of my PIQ scores on several of the WAIS tests i've had. I would suspect that Raven's isn't the best test for many others with NLD/AS who are "heavy" on the visual-spatial deficits.

Fundamentally speaking...the test is a culture-free test of non-verbal pattern recognition. My own less-than stellar performance on it only concerns me since many psychologists consider it one of the most "G-loaded" IQ tests.



Callista
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15 Aug 2010, 6:35 pm

If it makes you feel any better, I sucked at matrix reasoning, too. :) There's lots of different kinds of intelligence; and really, what matters isn't whether you're good at a particular thing, but where your strengths are and how you apply them. I'm honestly not sure what I think of the concept of "g"... intelligence just seems too big a thing to fit into anything as general as that.


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Horus
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15 Aug 2010, 7:19 pm

Callista wrote:


Quote:

If it makes you feel any better, I sucked at matrix reasoning, too.



Perhaps you are referring to the Matrix Reasoning subtest on the performance section of WAIS. My scores on that one have varied from test-to-test. I've scored in the 63rd%-tile on one, the 91st%-tile on another and in the low average (don't recall the exact %-tiles on those ones off-hand) %-tile on two others.




Quote:
I'm honestly not sure what I think of the concept of "g"... intelligence just seems too big a thing to fit into anything as general as that.



My feelings about "g" are mixed as well. I tend to believe it's little more than the subjective definition of "intelligence" postulated by Spearman and accepted by other psychometricians. I think certain proposed personality disorders (for example) like Theodore Million's, "Aggressive-Sadistic PD" might even have more objective validity than "g".



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15 Aug 2010, 9:00 pm

I guess in reality, the score is just a number on a piece of paper to me. It is really not showing me the progress that my son is making----the progress that I am seeing with my own eyes. His language has really taken off in the past few months. He is now asking questions such as "Where are we going today, Mom?" and "Who is coming over?" and so on and so on. He is very verbal. He is almost too verbal! LOL! Most of what he says makes sense, but he does still have trouble with conversations with people that he doesn't know very well. Tonight we were in the backyard playing Simon Says, and he followed all of my commands. Then I asked him to tell me what to do, and he gave me several different commands of what to do.

As far as self help skills, he still has difficulty with dressing himself, although he is doing much better. If I break it down in small steps, he can do it, and I suspect in time, he will be able to do this. The therapists at school said that he has dyspraxia which I believe that has something to do with how he performs self help skills. When he wants something to eat now, he goes to the refrigerator and gets it. He knows to take his trash to the trash can when he is done. He feeds himself with a fork and a spoon and drinks from a cup.

I agree Callista, I am just going to say that he has an autistic spectrum disorder, because he doesn't fit into a box. I don't know what his future holds. Right now, he isn't exhibiting genius abilities. but he has an excellent memory, and I just don't think he is mentally ret*d. I don't think I am just biased because I am his mom. So, the score is just something I think I need to push out of my mind and keep going forward.

He does do many things that seem so Aspie to me though. Like for instance, last night, I changed my shirt and had on a white t-shirt, and he got upset because he did not want me to have on the white shirt. And he likes to be the one who turns off the light in a room when we leave or the one to shut the door. So, who knows, I think ASD is just the right label for him for now.



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15 Aug 2010, 10:13 pm

Horus wrote:
buryuntime wrote:
Callista wrote:
Very true; if you had, say, an IQ of 96, you'd probably go, "Oh, okay, I'm average," and think nothing more of it. Whereas, if you scored a 143... you'd probably spend some time thinking about it and wondering whether that meant you were now obligated to become a brain surgeon. :P

How strange. My IQ is 96.





Mine WAS 143 (Full-Scale) on the second-to-last WAIS I took.


It was only 104 on the most recent one.


I'd be lucky to pass Anatomy and Physiology let alone become a brain surgeon.


I think that what is happening is that professionals routinely lie to clients about their IQs.



angelbear
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16 Aug 2010, 7:16 am

Oh, and I forgot to mention that he was fully potty trained right at 4 yrs old.



Horus
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16 Aug 2010, 12:05 pm

JohnisBlind wrote:
Horus wrote:
buryuntime wrote:
Callista wrote:
Very true; if you had, say, an IQ of 96, you'd probably go, "Oh, okay, I'm average," and think nothing more of it. Whereas, if you scored a 143... you'd probably spend some time thinking about it and wondering whether that meant you were now obligated to become a brain surgeon. :P

How strange. My IQ is 96.





Mine WAS 143 (Full-Scale) on the second-to-last WAIS I took.


It was only 104 on the most recent one.


I'd be lucky to pass Anatomy and Physiology let alone become a brain surgeon.


I think that what is happening is that professionals routinely lie to clients about their IQs.





Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?



I have taken seven professionally-administered IQ tests. I don't remember much about the first one I took since it was 26 years ago. All I remember is that my Full-scale score was 120 on that one. While my actual scores (FS, VIQ and PIQ) have varied significantly from test-to-test....my PATTERN of scores on the subtests has not.

People with NLD commonly perform best on certain VIQ subtests (namely....information, vocabulary and similarities) while their worst performance is usually seen on particular PIQ subtests (block design, object assembly and maybe one or two others). I am no exception to this and therefore exhibit a rather "classic" pattern of NLD performance on the most widely-used IQ tests like WAIS.

Actual scores can vary greatly from test-to-test. There are countless reasons for this that have everything to do with the testee and little or nothing to do with the particular proctor. For one example, a testee may be more awake and alert on one test and very tired and unfocused on another. For another, a testee may be particularily anxious/stressed (for whatever reason/s) during one test and relaxed on another. The reasons for varying performance on IQ tests could go on and on. I see no reason to believe this has anything to do with those who administer the tests. It certainly could have something to do with the adminstration of an IQ test which is altogether different from the one a testee had previously OR a different version of the same IQ test.


Bottom line....I think you're making an unfounded claim here that has little or no basis in reality.



xemmaliex
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20 Aug 2010, 6:02 am

even though i am only self diagnosed, i can say that aspies tend to have average to above average IQ, and HFA's average to below average. its not been proved, but it has been used as a tool my many professionals to distinguish between the two conditions.
i myself have an IQ on the BBC test the nation quiz (which is official) of 84, which puts me in below average, but i am still debating on whether i have aspergers or high finctioning autism.



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20 Aug 2010, 8:56 am

xemmaliex wrote:
even though i am only self diagnosed, i can say that aspies tend to have average to above average IQ and HFA's average to below average. its not been proved, but it has been used as a tool my many professionals to distinguish between the two conditions.


But this is not largely circular? After all, if we used hair color as a tool to distinguish between the two conditions (blonde - AS; brown - HFA) in the end it will be true that aspies will tend to have blond hair and HFA brown hair.. simply because they are diagnosed in these way.

Another point is that a diagnosis of AS only cane made if a diagnosis of HFA can't be made; then, by definition, ALL the cases when the professionals don't know if they are AS of HFA (and "invent" tools to decide how is the better diagnosis) are HFA.


Quote:
i myself have an IQ on the BBC test the nation quiz (which is official) of 84, which puts me in below average, but i am still debating on whether i have aspergers or high finctioning autism.


I think 84 is low-average (I suppose that below average is <70).