I need explanation for these NT things

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Warsie
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23 Aug 2010, 11:42 pm

1. That is a ret*d social grace. Ignore and accept their offer as it is a meal you do not have to pay for [if that is a date the social rules get more cloudy and I am too lazy to type them all sorry]

2. It was a clearing or hill or sunny/shady part of the park that everyone went to. Alternatively, social proof as others mentioned.


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anxiety25
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24 Aug 2010, 12:38 am

1) I do it at times too... for me, it's like, I mentally already decided to pay, so I insist since I've already budgeted it in, or set aside just for that. I mean, sure it's extra money in my pocket if they do pay, but I know they are budgeting as well and am not sure if they had already planned to do it or not. So I offer all the same. When it goes back and forth, it depends on just how much they are actually insisting. If they come across like "I'm doing this and you're not gonna stop me" then I let it go, because I figure they must have already prepped up for it, just like I did.

A lot of the time when planning to go out to eat, people make the plan, but don't talk about the money part beforehand. So once it's done and over, and the money comes into play, it's a battle over figuring out who is paying essentially. Both people likely planned to pay already, so are both insisting that they get to do it, essentially.

I've never done it as a "one up" type of thing... I do it just because I like to be nice and give others a break from time to time. When I'm unable to pay, they often volunteer well ahead of time so we already have it sorted out from the time it's planned. But when it's not planned it, it's an unexpected awkwardness that comes about since both were likely planning to anyway.


2) People do feel safer in crowds, and tend to "follow the leader". I've noticed it when I've gone with other people... we'll look all over for where we are gonna sit, and often the person I'm with wants to be right in the middle of all of the other people the majority of the time. Maybe it is a "safety in numbers" thing-I mean, they talk about that all the way through schools and all, so it could just wind up ingrained in their minds that that is just what people are supposed to do. I think it's more subconscious than anything. I bet a lot of people would be surprised if you were to ask them "why?" directly, because half of them probably don't realize they are even doing that when they go places.


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jec6613
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24 Aug 2010, 1:50 am

#1: This is an easy social situation to master yourself if you want to fit in better: offer to pay once if you are of equal or lesser means; offer twice if you have significantly greater means to pay than the other person, as they usually expect you to pay in that case.

Some say it's about power as showing that you have the means to play indicates your level of power, but I always pay for my best NT friend (who doesn't make as much money as I do) and yet she clearly has more power in our relationship, so I don't put much stock into that. It's just one of those social customs and graces people expect you to know, and if you do it a few dozen times you get used to it.

#2 I don't get either, but NTs like grouping up. I think this one has been beaten to death.



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24 Aug 2010, 1:51 am

SteelMaiden wrote:
No. 1:
Mum and her friend had finished a meal and they were going to pay:
Mum: I'll pay
Friend: no, I'll pay
Mum: no, you don't have to, I'll pay
Friend: no, it's ok, don't worry, I'll pay

And so on.....WHY DON'T YOU PAY EACH FOR WHAT YOU'VE EATEN OR SPLIT THE COST???

No.2:
I was walking in Hyde Park in central London with my AS friend. We observed that all the people there reading, sunbathing or eating ice-cream or whatever were crowded into one piece of grass (these are people who are complete strangers to each other) and the other pieces of grass were completely empy and waiting for someone to sit there. Why do NTs like being in crowds?

Any answers would be appreciated.


1 - When I go out with my friend both of us pay our part, if one decides to pay for the two, no one will try to change this fact. If think they just wanted to be polite.

2 - Some people enjoy being aroung other people, they may feel that the place is safer.



SteelMaiden
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24 Aug 2010, 3:09 am

All of these suggestions are very helpful. I can see now how no.1 means people are being polite and no. 2 about safety in numbers. However I would not do this myself.


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DiveClimb
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24 Aug 2010, 6:51 am

This is slightly off topic but I have found that it's a good way around the problems of #1

Whenever I'm interacting with someone socially for a while for example my mother when money comes into the issue we have a tally sheet of who owes who what. This is then used to decide who should pay for the meal.
If i'm out with friends we'll always split the bill equally and when i'm dating we arrange who pays beforehand.

It annoys me also when people argue over the bill . I think it's just a way of showing generosity and being friendly . I'm not sure but mum tells me that some of her friends will refuse to let her pay the bill and that it's insulting to then when you insist on paying.



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25 Aug 2010, 8:56 am

SteelMaiden wrote:
No. 1: .....WHY DON'T YOU PAY EACH FOR WHAT YOU'VE EATEN OR SPLIT THE COST???
No.2:Why do NTs like being in crowds?

The responses so far, while all most certainly true in their own ways, appear to originate from uncontrolled experience. Although experience is the foundation of wisdom, it also lacks the objectivity and rigidity of scientific analysis.
IOW, giving social or "high-level" causes for a social event is important & somewhat useful, but giving a thorough treatment of the procedural or "low-level" mechanics involved--and how they emerge as those social events--is not only more useful, but innately allows for engineering tactics that will prevent the negative aspects of such events from emergence.
[For more detail on this, without all the unnecessary math, I refer you to "Predictably Irrational": http://www.amazon.com/dp/0061353248/ ]

So, here is my game-theory based analysis of the above 2 social events:
1) This is a differential trap, known as a power-play. In an equal relationship, each individual wants to show the other the s/he is superior in power. Since money is less important than power, each will want to pay. The failure for an individual to create an "out" results in this pointless game. Resolution: one person demands early on how the payment will be made. Incidentally, that person automatically gains power in the relationship, since decisiveness is associated with power.
2) This is also a differential trap, known as a trend-setter anti-pattern. In these social events, every new person feels social pressure to conform to the already-established trend (i.e. laying down where everyone else already is). Going against that trend tends to provoke negative pressure in the individuals who had previously taken part in the trend (i.e. 'I could have gone over there if I wanted to, so you better stick around here, or else!) Since few individuals value being a new trend setter due to this negative pressure, few desire to go against the current trend. (Obviously, us aspies just don't feel constrained by these negative pressures, which partly explains why we're often social outcasts.) Resolution: organize a simultaneous mass movement over to a new location, or become a trend setter and subtly mock the cowardice and lack of individuality of the conformists of the old trend. Either way, the people in the old place will feel pressure to move to the new place.

End of game-theory analysis. (I'm always looking for ways to explain social force influence in a more easy-to-understand fashion. Please let me have any feedback you think is appropriate.)


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anxiety25
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25 Aug 2010, 12:34 pm

AdmiralCrunch wrote:
2) This is also a differential trap, known as a trend-setter anti-pattern. In these social events, every new person feels social pressure to conform to the already-established trend (i.e. laying down where everyone else already is). Going against that trend tends to provoke negative pressure in the individuals who had previously taken part in the trend (i.e. 'I could have gone over there if I wanted to, so you better stick around here, or else!) Since few individuals value being a new trend setter due to this negative pressure, few desire to go against the current trend. (Obviously, us aspies just don't feel constrained by these negative pressures, which partly explains why we're often social outcasts.) Resolution: organize a simultaneous mass movement over to a new location, or become a trend setter and subtly mock the cowardice and lack of individuality of the conformists of the old trend. Either way, the people in the old place will feel pressure to move to the new place.


I asked my bf who is NT, and on this second one, according to him, it's very much this. That is why they refer to people on the outside as the "wall flowers". Just decoration to make the room look full? Dunno-I really don't understand that nick name for them, or that they need a "name" for it rather than just saying "hey, what about that person over there?" lol.

But I'm not positive it's so much from the same perspective.

He says it's moreso that when you sit far away, people will often feel insulted to some extent. "Oh you're too good for us to sit by us?" But, once one person moves over there, the next group that comes in will likely sit in the middle, eventually filling out the whole area.

On the first one though, I disagree. I think it's just plain lack of planning that does it. As BF says, everyone gets all excited to go out and do something together, and they just don't stop and think about the money part in the plans. It turns into a back and forth, because each person REALLY just wants to pay for their own.

So, Person A and Person B-both want to pay for their own personal meals, but do not want to seem rude by only doing that since it wasn't agreed upon to begin with. The back and forth happens because both of them want to pay for their own, and are offering because they want to be polite.... but A doesn't want B to have to pay for A's food, and B doesn't want A to pay for B's either. So it becomes a stubborn thing, to some degree. If A pays, they may want absolutely nothing in return, but B will feel like they owe A something. Same the other way around. The person who winds up letting the other pay, feels obligated after that point, because they just got a free meal on the other person's dime.


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nthach
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25 Aug 2010, 1:03 pm

1) I usually ask for my share of the tab, usually. Sometimes I'll offer to pay depending on circumstance.
2) I can handle public situations OK - I was just hanging out in Central Park last week with a group of people. However, it's hard to keep the shy aspie in me in check for those instances.

However, when it comes to public transit, if I'm on a commuter bus I'll pick a empty row of seats. If it's a regular bus or train, I'll take a seat near the front.



AdmiralCrunch
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25 Aug 2010, 1:26 pm

anxiety25 wrote:
I asked my bf who is NT... according to him, it's very much this.

I firmly believe that we’ll never be able to socially engage NTs until we’ve fully understood how they actually do socially engage. They’ll never entertain our worldview; we have to entertain theirs.

#1:
Quote:
On the first one though, I disagree. I think it's just plain lack of planning that does it.

In an ideal world, all actions would be planned-out in detail. We do not live in an ideal world, nor can we expect NTs to even attempt to make an effort to create it. Failure to agree beforehand can result in this game, yes; but what do we do when we don't agree beforehand?

Quote:
It turns into a back and forth, because each person REALLY just wants to pay for their own.

Ah, I think this is a definitional problem, as in I’m not fully explaining myself. “Power” is an all-encompassing term—meaning that any emotions that one feels in relation to another person. By power, I don’t mean the ability to violently force oneself on the other, nor even the statistical likelihood of getting another to do one’s bidding. Perhaps I should be using the words “respect” or “trust” or “confidence”. Can you think of a better word for this?
Regardless, I think we’re approaching the same solution from different directions. Each person is unable to make a case for the most optimal resolution, and instead of one being rude and making a final decision, the conversation just slowly ratchets up until one of the people "wins", i.e. out-tires the other.

#2:
Quote:
He says it's more so that when you sit far away, people will often feel insulted to some extent… "Oh you're too good for us to sit by us?"

I think this is another definitional problem. I used the term “negative pressure” to mean the negative emotions that one provokes in another and the other’s social reaction to it. Not wanting to insult another person is another form of social control, though not one literally forced on society. But the effect is the same.


In general, I think you understand the basics of what I’m trying to explain. Each person walks into a social situation with given attitudes, resources, and expectations, and also with the ability to use affect to communicate and influence others. When combined together into a complex social event, each individual finds her/himself becoming ever more susceptible to the trends already in place, hence intolerant of change. Certain patterns begin to emerge, which can be analyzed mathematically.
The latest research in sociology is finally beginning to crack this code of group dynamics through game theory. The real problem is what's called decomposition, which is separating every possible social force from a situation and showing how important a role each is playing, if at all. I’m right in the front lines trying to push this, since when we do have it done, every social situation will have a mathematically-computable optimal response. Then we win. :D

To see this from another perspective, check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn9fTc_WMbo


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Assembly
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25 Aug 2010, 2:13 pm

Quote:
No. 1:
Mum and her friend had finished a meal and they were going to pay:
Mum: I'll pay
Friend: no, I'll pay
Mum: no, you don't have to, I'll pay
Friend: no, it's ok, don't worry, I'll pay


I've taken advantage of this social rule on several occasions. It's very easy to predict the outcome (like I'll offer to pay/offer something to seem nice, when in fact I know they won't accept my offer), but you can accept an offer yourself without looking foolish if you just know (helps alot if you know the person. I suspect that most nt's don't really care much for these rules, yet follow them because it's learned and expected behaviour - and also a way to show yourself from a good side (withoutout making any real sacrifices). It's like a social game - the person who pays the meal is either the winner or the loser (i.e the other person is just playing along and wants a free meal)



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25 Aug 2010, 3:09 pm

Thinking about this "group think" stuff. I remember once, when I traveled to Philly with a bunch of other students from college. We were going to be taking a certification exam in the morning, so had planned to share a hotel room, and split the cost. That was fine. What wasn't fine, was that when we arrived, we all stopped in the hotel dining room. I had a cup of overpriced tea, and several others in the group had drinks and food. It was decided, after the fact, that the bill be split amongst us all. I was furious; my portion would have been under 5 dollars, but because of the others who had consumed alcohol and food, I was forced to pay over 12 dollars instead. I protested, but because everyone else didn't have a problem with it, I was overruled. :evil:


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