Short-Term vs. Long-Term memory problems

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I suspect this is so. I wonder if part of my problem is how I am applying awareness or consciousness to that which is to be remembered.

Another problem seems to be that my mind/brain can't decide what to remember, like it can't always distinguish between signal and noise.

But can you distinguish between signal and noise at the time? If it never gets through to begin with, it only makes sense that you couldn't remember it.

I seem to have a memory problem with conversation. Even when I'm fully engaged in a conversation, interested and focused, literally telling myself "You should remember this," it leaves me. Too often people refer to things we've talked about or that I've (allegedly) said in the past. They always sound like things I'd say or talk about, so I believe them, but I can never recall the conversations they refer to. It gets embarrassing, really, and frustrating. I never know what people know about me because I can't remember the things I've said to them.

I suppose I have the problem outside of conversation to a degree as well--I have to write down things I need to get done or make a note of, or they they leave me.

I think I can. I'm getting good at recognising when to bother paying attention or not. It's a focus thing. I'm terribly ruthless with what I give my attention to these days.



You're spooky. This is exactly the problem that's been causing me to question my remembering faculties. I met someone recently who constantly refers to conversations we've had that I can't remember, or only remember in very fuzzy impressions.

One issue seems to be that my idea of what is relevant seems different to what other people feel is relevant.



The problem with note taking is that one then needs to worry about 1. engagement with whatever it is 2. Taking notes at the same time. 3. Noting what's relevant and not the irrelevant 4. Organising/storage/retrieval of notes...

I like your signature quote.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_p ... g_disorder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short-term_memory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_memory

She had the WISC test.



Her visual memory is quite good as I stated in the previous post about remembering things she has seen almost like "photographic memory". She also learns via memorization. For instance, she learns how to read not be phonetically sounding out but by memorizing how a word looks.

I am pretty confident my daughter is HFA instead of AS (although I understand the distinction is minimal). She is very good at math and visualizing things but poor in verbal or abstract things (she had delayed language-didn't speak until after 2 years old). The test that she scored 99.9% was one in which they named a long string of numbers-she was able to perfectly repeat the numbers back, even in reverse order.

The test that she scored 18th showed her pictures of objects, then after a short delay (5 minutes or so) they asked her to "name" what was on the picture. She had trouble doing this but I believe it was the transfer between "seeing" and "saying" that she had diffculty with. Had they shown her a larger group of photos and asked her to pick out the ones that were in the first I think she would probably do better.



I don't recall specifically what was done in this test-I think it was remembering a string of mundane words after a delay. I might be mistaken. I know that her test results stated they attempted this subtest twice and she seemed to not understand what was being asked so they didn't attempt it again. Perhaps my memory of which test tested what is off because it was over a year ago but that is my best recollection.



She has displayed some very odd memory traits. I was reading the wiki someone posted on neuroanatory of memory and I think the amygdala could explain her detailed memory in some instances. My daughter has "fight or flight" issues where she can become quite disturbed and in a panic over mundane things. I've thought perhaps this was an amygdala issue. If "emotional" memories are written into memory more lucidly and are more able to withstand forgetting, then perhaps her "hyperemotionality" could be the reason for her extreme memory capabilities.

She is very pattern, statistical, and math minded. During the most recent Olympics she had on her chalkboard all the statistical analysis of the Olympic contestants and would want to stay up all night to record the data. That was at age 6.

However, she cannot read well. So there is an example of her uneven skills. It is frustrating because the people with AS here describe themselves as hyperlexic and avid readers even since childhood and my daughter doesn't fit that profile. I guess that's why it is a "spectrum".

Thanks for your input.

I want to again thank all of you who have responded to my recent posts in this thread. Your advice is well-received and greatly appreciated I will get back to you all ASAP, though it might take several days, or even weeks, for me to reply to all of you. I am quite occupied with family affairs at the moment and these discussions about memory and neuropsychology in general often require lengthy posts which I just don't have an unlimited amount of time to craft right now. Also...another poster (in a different thread) has told me that I should try contacting the famous Dr. Oliver Sacks in regards to these mysterious and undiagnosed memory/neurological problems I believe I have.

Such a communique will require a long and complicated explanation of my situation and I believe it should take first priority. I will start working on my email to Dr. Sacks ASAP and while I have strong doubts that he will ever reply to me....it can't hurt to try and desperate times/circumstances call for desperate measures. I will keep all of you posted and let you know if he replies to me. Sacks has dealt with some very mysterious brains and I can think of few more mysterious than my own.

Horus

pgd wrote:

I have never been diagnosed with epilepsy, but AFAIK, it's possible to have epileptic and non-epileptic seizures with knowing it. I believe my own problems with memory may be similar to those of J.T.'s. There are alot of things I retain for hours and maybe days (i'm referring to semantic memory here in particular) but I seem to exhibit rapid forgetting beyond that time frame. Aside from neuroimaging studies, I suppose my own memory problems (provided they are similar to J.T.'s and that they exist in the first place) could only be determined tests administered over long intervals of time.

As you probably know....most neuropsych memory tests used in the usual clinical settings
only assess memory up to a 30-minute delay. Still...it's hard determine if my own problems have anything to do with cosolidatiom over long periods of time or not. I think there is some likelyhood they do simply because I would think that SOME deficits in my memory would've been detected on at least one of the six neuropsych tests i've had in my life.


I believe the temporal lobes are largely responsible for semantic memory and since I do feel I have problems with semantic memory, i'm wondering just what kind of temporal lobe damage/abnormality I may have and what caused it.

It depends...I often do, but sometimes I don't. What you're talking about here could probably considered cued/triggered/prompted recall. While I do think my memory is better when "cued"
(by person, an exam question, a jeopardy question, etc....), I still believe my cued recall is far from normal. My free recall (the ability to recall alot of details about given subject spontaneously so I that I can talk, or write, about the subject in depth) seems to be much worse though.

The thing is...deficits in my frontal lobe are the only ones I have any objective evidence for at all. Thus...it's very possible I could have deficits in my prefrontal cortex. Please correct me if i'm wrong, but I always thought the hippocampus had more to do with episodic memory rather than semantic memory. I know of no events at any period of my development which could've resulted in hippocampal damage, but that's not to say none is possible. Again...there have been several individuals with extensive hippocampal damage who have an intact semantic memory while their episodic memory is devastated. There have been other cases in which both forms of memory are impaired (these seem pretty rare though) and this may be suggestive of damage to both the hippocampus AND the regions surrounding it. Hippocampal damage often occurs as a result of hypoxic episodes early in development and the hippocampus is a particularily vunerable part of the brain. Hypoxic episodes are often, if not always, the cause of developmental amnesia. There is some evidence that developmental amnesia can result in impaired semantic memory as well as impaired episodic memory. I have often wondered if I had some hypoxic episode during early periods of my development which no one was aware of.


As for everything else you wrote....i'm just as in dark as you are

I won't suggest that you should try it, Horus.

I just presented some facts about boosting cognition, and provided some research sources.

I'm getting a hint that maybe you are reticent with the notion of pills?
I doubt you could reach a theraputic level with sardines, but you never know.

My wife has undiagnosed ADD, but she will not get a diagnoses( there are diagnosed ones in her family) or take supplements for it because of a phobia of "unbalancing things."

I let her have her space. But I always say to myself, "it must not be bad enough, then"

But I subscribe to, "Nothing ventured nothing gained."

Memory Improvement Courses
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt139086.html

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory

Mama_to_Grace wrote:

That's what I thought...but I couldn't tell for certain based upon what you wrote in your first post.





It sure sounds like it. These memory tests are no different than the IQ test themselves. They all seem to measure only a very narrow range of skills and I can't even tell you what the test of visual memory your daughter had (which yielded a score in the 18th%-tile) is supposed to measure in terms of some specific aspect of visual memory. None of this is unusual for people with AS and other ASD's. It sounds to me like she's a very visual learner overall although the visual memory test she performed poorly on MIGHT be indicative of some specific (and likely not very serious) difficulties in visual memory whereas her visual memory overall is excellent. Or....it's just as likely, if not more so, that she was just having a bad day due to tiredness, anxiety, stress, agitation, boredom, etc.....





The distinction is minimal, but I can't tell you anything about your daughter in this regard of course. People with AS can be visual learners as well, but i'd say it's at least just in common for those with AS to be more verbally-inclined learners who often have some visual-spatial deficits to one degree or another. I wonder if she may have dyslexia or some receptive and/or expressive language disorder. The test you're referring to is called Digit Span and supposedly it's a good measure of short-term memory.





That is a test of visual memory, but I don't remember the exact name of it. Was there a test of immediate visual memory as well as the delayed one? This again may be reflective of a language disorder or reflective of nothing beyond boredom, anxiety, etc....Have you ever been told she has issues with executive functioning? This might have something to do with this too. It would be interesting to see how well she did on immediate recall of the names on the pictures as opposed to delayed recall. I could represent a consolidation issue if she does much better on the immediate rather than the delayed recall. It doesn't sound like she has any problems with visual processing, though that might be evident if she did poorly on immediate recall. Also...idk if this 5-minute delay was nearly long enough to suggest she has any issues with consolidation. A 30-minute delayed recall test may better determine such a thing. Anyway....I could speculate forever and as i'm not trained psychometrician, that's about all I can offer.






Hmmm....this just sounds like one of the standard delayed tests of verbal memory. I really can't say anything as to why she didn't understand what was being asked or even if DID fail to understand what was being asked









The amygdala could explain her detailed memory, especially when it comes to semantic memory (memory for facts/information). The fight/flight issues are related to the HPA axis and there may be some association with her problems here and her detailed memory. I'm not sure if this is an amygdala issue per se or not, but it does sound very, very likely as we tend to remember things better which have a strong emotional impact on us. In your daughter's case....it sounds like alot of things which would be mundane to others would have a major emotional impact on her. Thus...this alone may explain her detailed memory for many things.







Yes....it does sound like she's a visual learner and pretty good at pattern recognition. Based upon this....I would be inclined to lean towards a HFA diagnosis rather than AS/NVLD. I can't be sure about this since many with AS/NVLD are also visual learners can be very good at math and pattern recognition. All in all...it sounds to me like she just may have a language disorder (which may or may not be related to autism) whether it's dyslexia or some expressive/receptive language disorder. Does have any problems with auditory processing that you know of? I'm thinking that might be why she had trouble understanding what the examiners were asking for on that one test. I am one of those who is pretty much hyperlexic and I can read very fast. I also have been an avid reader since childhood. I have a terrible visual memory however and my visual-spatial abilites are abysmal overall. I am also terrible at math and even now at 40, i've never been able to pass introductory algebra in spite of scoring high average or better (all the way up to very superior at 143) on five out of seven of the professionally-administered IQ tests i've taken in my life.

Good luck to you and your daughter!! !

No.....not reticent at all so long as whatever pills i'm taking have no major side effects and no contraindications for anything I have or am currently taking. Thus far....it appears that nothing you have suggested would be problem for me at all. I was doubting the AI of 550mg (of choline) which could easily be obtained via dietary sources would be an adequate theraputic level, but I just wasn't sure. Believe me....i'm ready to give your recommedations a shot. I just want to do a bit more research and wait until I return to Florida until everything in my life is stable again and (on Tues, Oct 5th) I can get the ball rolling. I'll be in touch via pm not long after I return

BTW, I was wrong, went back and checked and it was the DAS II that had the memory tests in it.

For the working memory subtest it says "despite being given a number of examples she did not understand what was being asked of her. On this task she was asked to remember a string of words and then reverse the order. The second attempt presented verbal information paired with visual information and again required reordering of the information."

She was 38th% on a task that paired visual and verbal memory later in the tests with a fair amount of forgetting shown after a brief delay-18th%.

I also responded on the BRIEF (test of executive functioning) and she scored very impaired in her executive functioning.

They also stated her scores were impaired by inattention and impulsivity.

Thank you for your input. I have been very concerned with her lack of reading abilities. She refuses reading more and more and her same aged peers are reading 100 page books. I have thought perhaps it is a language disorder of some sort but don't know where to begin to figure out what is going on. Her neuropsych testing a year ago said she was at 92% for letter recognition but she doesn't seem to be able to apply the letter recognition to reading. She knows the words she has memorized but a long string of words is just blah, blah, blah-she can't seem to make sense of them. I am hoping this will come along in time as my brother (who has AS) didn't read until 3rd grade. I try to focus on the positives-she scored top of her class in math and has mastered some pretty advanced mathematical principles. Everyone is different so perhaps her skills are just developing unevenly. Her auditory processing seems fine.

Good luck to you in your search to find out more about your memory issues!

For me its like I pretty much remember everything but not in any functional way. I never bothered to take notes in school because i would devote all my mental space to taking notes and miss what the teacher was actually talking about. If I tried to pay attention to what the teacher was saying i would end up getting lost in some train of thought relating to something they said and miss what they were talking about. The best method was to doodle because it would center me. If I focused on drawing which is fairly automatic for me I could passively take in what was going on around me and remember it later when i needed it. It works similiarly in conversation because my mind is always wandering. Im better at remembering what people say then actually listening to what they say

I wanted to add to this that the FDA-approved alertness aid would likely be a bad option for me. I really can't handle much caffeine or CNS stimulants in general. Stimulants give me terrible panic attacks and I haven't many panic attacks since I cut out all caffeine intake. Besides...this alertness aid would likely only improve very narrow aspects of memory. Namely short-term/working memory and I supposedly have no problems in that area in particular. It's really hard to tell though and a few things don't add up. All the tests of my short-term/working memory yielded perfectly normal (or above average-superior) results in that area. AFAIK....the neuropsychological tests are much more reliable in terms of their ability to accurately assess short-term/working memory as opposed to long-term memory. Still...I supposedly have some frontal lobe deficits and the frontal lobe plays a critical role in short-term/working memory. Not to mention a role in transfering short-term memory into long-term memory. Thus...I suppose whatever frontal lobe deficits I have do not impact my short-term/working memory per se.

The part of the frontal lobe responsible (the prefrontal cortex I believe) responsible for transfering short-term memory into long-term memory may be impaired though. I've heard that would require extensive damage/abnormality in this region which would definitely be detected on the neuropsychological tests.