Rob from rich,give to poor -> rob from poor,give to poor

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number5
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31 Oct 2010, 9:48 am

I should add that this idea only applies if you are at least able to afford shelter, some food, and some clothing. If you're homeless, I don't think this applies.



Sand
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31 Oct 2010, 10:11 am

number5 wrote:
I should add that this idea only applies if you are at least able to afford shelter, some food, and some clothing. If you're homeless, I don't think this applies.


And if you're sick and need expensive medical care or your kids need special education or your wife or mother has cancer or you can't get work locally and have no car etc.etc.etc.



leejosepho
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31 Oct 2010, 10:18 am

number5 wrote:
When money becomes a #1 priority, then you are bound to be miserable. I've been in both situations both during childhood and during adulthood. I think when you're put in a situation where material possessions have to be given up, it forces you to look at what's really important. It promotes creativity and a simpler life based on the things that truly matter most, which happens to not be things at all, but people.

Yes. My father, now in his 80s, grew up "dirt poor", according to him, then ended up retiring at 40 following a successful period as a manufacturer of recreational vehicles ... and to me, he seemed much better off and we all got along much better while he was still a regular guy just like the rest of us.


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ruveyn
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31 Oct 2010, 11:23 am

Sand wrote:
number5 wrote:
I should add that this idea only applies if you are at least able to afford shelter, some food, and some clothing. If you're homeless, I don't think this applies.


And if you're sick and need expensive medical care or your kids need special education or your wife or mother has cancer or you can't get work locally and have no car etc.etc.etc.


Do you think this unfortunate state of affairs justifies theft, threat of force or the initiation of force?

ruveyn



number5
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31 Oct 2010, 12:02 pm

Sand wrote:
number5 wrote:
I should add that this idea only applies if you are at least able to afford shelter, some food, and some clothing. If you're homeless, I don't think this applies.


And if you're sick and need expensive medical care or your kids need special education or your wife or mother has cancer or you can't get work locally and have no car etc.etc.etc.


Again, I disagree. The happiest and most inspiring person I ever knew never let sickness nor hard times destroy her spirit. She was my boss and friend for 10 years. When I first met her, she was doing very well. Had a lovely house, $60,000 car in the driveway, and a wonderful family. They were not without their problems, but overall things were good. Two years after working for her, she got sick, very sick. She needed a liver transplant and insurance wouldn't cover it. They lost everything. The house, the car, her job - everything. I remember asking her before the operation how she felt about her tragic situation and I will never forget her words. "It's only money, I'm still here," she said with a huge smile. And she meant it.

She recovered well from the surgery, but her family of 5 now lived in a 1 bedroom apartment with no transportation except for the teenage girls beater car. She was just as happy at this point as she was when I first met her, maybe moreso. Sadly, she died about a year ago from an unrelated cancer. She remained happy and broke up until her death.

My mother on the other hand was perpetually miserable. It was always about money with her. If she was rich (read married a guy with money), she'd complain about the car not being fancy enough, or the vacation not being long enough, etc., etc. When she was broke, she was equally miserable. It was never enough, not matter how much she had. She was miserable until the day she died.

My family's been through our own share of struggles from having a special needs kid and a disabled husband, to job loss and impending foreclosure on our dream home. So what, I still have my family, and every day I wake up feeling happy in knowing that I have the best family ever. No amount of money could ever change that.

Money doesn't buy happiness and it doesn't solve problems. It may sound cliche, but it's true. If you can say "it's only money" and mean it, you're in a good place, whether you have it or don't.



xenon13
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31 Oct 2010, 1:17 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
number5 wrote:
I should add that this idea only applies if you are at least able to afford shelter, some food, and some clothing. If you're homeless, I don't think this applies.


And if you're sick and need expensive medical care or your kids need special education or your wife or mother has cancer or you can't get work locally and have no car etc.etc.etc.


Do you think this unfortunate state of affairs justifies theft, threat of force or the initiation of force?

ruveyn


I suppose you will want these sick people to pay for the bullets that are to be used on them in your dystopia.



hyperlexian
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31 Oct 2010, 3:10 pm

number5 wrote:
Money doesn't buy happiness and it doesn't solve problems. It may sound cliche, but it's true. If you can say "it's only money" and mean it, you're in a good place, whether you have it or don't.


leejosepho wrote:
Not necessarily. People with more money seem to have more money troubles* ... and several folks with far more than me have heartily agreed when I have said that to them.

(*Note: The problem of seeming to never have enough can easily grow right alongside anyone's balance sheet.)


yes, exactly.

everyone needs a certain minimum amount of resources to survive, but like leejosepho has observed, it is never possible for some people to have "enough". their expenses and desires and wants rise along with their income.


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31 Oct 2010, 3:13 pm

In extreme cases, yes, it is possible to redistribute income downward SO MUCH that the rich are no longer rich but impoverished. In actuality, that doesn't really happen in postindustrial societies.


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ruveyn
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31 Oct 2010, 3:19 pm

[quote="xenon13"
I suppose you will want these sick people to pay for the bullets that are to be used on them in your dystopia.[/quote]

Can you distinguish between commission and omission. I do not propose initiating force against these unfortunate folk. I propose that any help they get be purely voluntary and not at taxpayer expense. If you want to help the Wretched of the Earth, then by all means do. But on YOUR nickel, not mine. And of others want to ignore the wretches they should not be forced to pay for their care.

ruveyn



parrow
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31 Oct 2010, 3:50 pm

adifferentname wrote:
The purpose of Robin Hood in robbing tax money....
His actions were hardly Marxist.


And there is the key that lefties overlook.

Robin hood stole from the rich to give to the poor. But he lived under an oppressive monarchy where the only ones who had any wealth were part of the government or royalty. So it could also be said that he stole from the government to give to the people.

Some Socialists & Communists want to recreate the situation by overly taxing private citizens with wealth to the point that the only ones who are wealthy are the government, thus oppressing the masses. Oh, but rest assured, they are only attempting to create income equality in the private sector. Unfortunately the only way to achieve that goal is to have all of the people equally poor.



marshall
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31 Oct 2010, 5:38 pm

ruveyn wrote:
xenon13 wrote:
I suppose you will want these sick people to pay for the bullets that are to be used on them in your dystopia.


Can you distinguish between commission and omission. I do not propose initiating force against these unfortunate folk. I propose that any help they get be purely voluntary and not at taxpayer expense. If you want to help the Wretched of the Earth, then by all means do. But on YOUR nickel, not mine. And of others want to ignore the wretches they should not be forced to pay for their care.

Your ideal world is a world of horror and brutality. Life isn't free. No matter how much you pontificate "stealing is wrong" you will not be able to prevent a starving underclass from violently revolting against the rich if they decide to hoard all the wealth and resources. To them your failure to share is an act of violence and they will respond with violence. Also, it makes no sense for you to make moral proclamations against violence when you have no moral conscience yourself. There really is no logical right or wrong in the matter as the conflict is a conflict of basic values. There's no sense in arguing with a sociopath such as yourself so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.



leejosepho
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31 Oct 2010, 8:06 pm

marshall wrote:
... you will not be able to prevent a starving underclass from violently revolting against the rich if they decide to hoard all the wealth and resources.

Hypotheticals often lead to confusion and trouble, and that statement misses reality in at least two ways:

1) Starving people (contextually poor and destitute) would be too weak and broke for violent revolution;
2) "The rich" would not be guilty of hoarding just because they were not writing checks.

And then, of course:

marshall wrote:
... a sociopath such as yourself ...

... is not an acceptable way to speak to anyone around here.


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marshall
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31 Oct 2010, 8:46 pm

leejosepho wrote:
marshall wrote:
... you will not be able to prevent a starving underclass from violently revolting against the rich if they decide to hoard all the wealth and resources.

Hypotheticals often lead to confusion and trouble, and that statement misses reality in at least two ways:

1) Starving people (contextually poor and destitute) would be too weak and broke for violent revolution;
2) "The rich" would not be guilty of hoarding just because they were not writing checks.

By existing in the proximity of starving people and refusing to do anything they are guilty of hoarding. I would have no qualms if they were robbed.
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marshall wrote:
... a sociopath such as yourself ...

... is not an acceptable way to speak to anyone around here.

Do NOT patronize me.

Show me that that man is not a sociopath, the way he talks of people who he believes are "below" him. I've had it with the all the hateful sickness masquerading as "conservatism". Violence truly is the only language the irredeemably selfish and hateful understand. I'm sick of this whole damn site. f**k YOU ALL. f**k HUMANS. f**k THIS PLANET. And don't anyone bother saying anything back to me that you wouldn't have the gall to say to my face, lest I break it.



Macbeth
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31 Oct 2010, 9:15 pm

marshall wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
marshall wrote:
... you will not be able to prevent a starving underclass from violently revolting against the rich if they decide to hoard all the wealth and resources.

Hypotheticals often lead to confusion and trouble, and that statement misses reality in at least two ways:

1) Starving people (contextually poor and destitute) would be too weak and broke for violent revolution;
2) "The rich" would not be guilty of hoarding just because they were not writing checks.

By existing in the proximity of starving people and refusing to do anything they are guilty of hoarding. I would have no qualms if they were robbed.
Quote:
marshall wrote:
... a sociopath such as yourself ...

... is not an acceptable way to speak to anyone around here.

Do NOT patronize me.

Show me that that man is not a sociopath, the way he talks of people who he believes are "below" him. I've had it with the all the hateful sickness masquerading as "conservatism". Violence truly is the only language the irredeemably selfish and hateful understand. I'm sick of this whole damn site. f**k YOU ALL. f**k HUMANS. f**k THIS PLANET. And don't anyone bother saying anything back to me that you wouldn't have the gall to say to my face, lest I break it.


That's not a very charitable attitude for someone demanding charity of others.


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31 Oct 2010, 9:18 pm

parrow wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
The purpose of Robin Hood in robbing tax money....
His actions were hardly Marxist.


And there is the key that lefties overlook.

Robin hood stole from the rich to give to the poor. But he lived under an oppressive monarchy where the only ones who had any wealth were part of the government or royalty. So it could also be said that he stole from the government to give to the people.

Some Socialists & Communists want to recreate the situation by overly taxing private citizens with wealth to the point that the only ones who are wealthy are the government, thus oppressing the masses. Oh, but rest assured, they are only attempting to create income equality in the private sector. Unfortunately the only way to achieve that goal is to have all of the people equally poor.


The (fictional) Robin Hood stole from the rich and PAID the "poor" because it was the "Poor" who provided services he needed.


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ruveyn
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31 Oct 2010, 9:29 pm

marshall wrote:
Your ideal world is a world of horror and brutality. Life isn't free. No matter how much you pontificate "stealing is wrong" you will not be able to prevent a starving underclass from violently revolting against the rich if they decide to hoard all the wealth and resources.


During the Great Depression the amount of violence among the unemployed was rather low. Most crime was related to Prohibition, not to poverty and there was much blood spilled over who would control the trade in illegal booze.

As for my "ideal world", I don't have one. I have -this- world, the world I live in and I do the best I can in it.

I expect very little from people and I surely do not count on moral excellence. If it happens, that is good, but it is an accident. Most people follow the line of least resistance and try to do the best they can given the circumstances and their limitations. I am in no position to either expect or demand excellence or heroism from others.

Keep your expectations low and your door locked.


ruveyn