Prenatal Testing For Autism (Like Jewish & Hitler?)

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I wonder if it would cause a huge uproar if they made a law to where if someone gets a prenatal test for any genetic condition, it is hereby illegal to abort said child? That would fix the problem.

I have thought about that a while ago. The problem is it not the peoples or the governments body to decide to carry a child to term according to my understanding of the law. From what I know of the law there is a certain point in pregnancy that a lady cannot abort. Due to my job I cannot really further this specific sub-topic but welcome others to entertain it.

If prenatal testing for autism becomes available, the justification will be for intervention of the development of Autism. A link may be found between Autism and gene deletion or replication, but it is doubtful that it will provide conclusive evidence. Prenatal testing for an abnormality in the genes may assist in interventions after birth so the child may have the opportunity to have an improved quality of life. There is research regarding an association between high levels of testosterone in the womb and the development of Autism. If evidence is produced that this is the case, an intervention may be developed to decrease the level of testosterone in the womb to lower the incidence of Autism. I think it is unlikely that prenatal tests will be offered unless there are significant associated factors, like a close relative having Autism.

The deletion of the 22Q11.2 gene is associated with Schizophrenia and other mental illnesses. This association has been known for decades, but prenatal tests are done only for other conditions related to this gene deletion.

Some people may use the information from a prenatal test to decide to get a legal abortion. I can't see anyway of preventing this as long as abortion is legal. A women, with an existing child with autism, may chose not to have another child. The availability of prenatal testing and positive interventions, may allow a woman to feel more comfortable in a decision to bring another child into the world.

In regards to the original question: is prenatal testing for Autism like Jews and Hitler? The purpose of prenatal testing is to improve the quality of life for the mother and child. The purpose of the extermination of healthy humans in the holocaust was to serve the twisted idealism of a dictator.

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A culture is a common conditioning by which a means to perceive is standardized and with core averages and abnormalities of acceptances including patterns, complex and simple manifestations and with the shared condition of eating, breathing, pooping, peeing and reproducing. I must add that cultures that are not in-fixed upon religious structure such as a church evolves faster. That is why I am confident that the early intervention for those with autism with acceptance, assistance like other children need but different and allot of love is next to be fully realized. Hence what I mean to say is if anyone suffered from a delusional disorder that we would apply any negativity for something not physically broken -- upon, before or not so long after birth we have all failed a moral standard near everyone would expect and deserves in day to day life in which they exist and are happy by means of common human acceptance and the acquisition of typical cultural inclusion. Autism is not a culture necessary but autism being an artificial name applied to a person is already part of the general culture. If unique, different and so on is not acceptable and made unhappy or mentally disturbed by means of rejection ever so indirectly then you yourself are not worthy of the evolving culture which surrounds you.

That is all..

Not everybody is financially or psychologically capable of caring for a child with special needs.

And Nazi comparisons are not only played out, but downright insulting to people who died at the hands of the Nazis.

Yeah I can see why it is insulting yes.

Also I can see why it takes special people to raise a child with autism. Adoption is also an option.

There is a local autism parents advocacy group here. I work with them at times. They are very nice.

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There was one study done (that is frequently cited by proponents of genetically engineering babies aka test tube babies) where they surveyed a bunch of prospective first-time parents and asked them if there were some technology that could ensure their new baby would not have Down Syndrome, would they utilize it. About 65% said they would. But, another, less-known study surveyed parents of older children (I believe between 13 and 18) who had Down Syndrome, asking them, whether, knowing what they know now, if they would have utilized such a technology at the time they had their child, a much smaller number (I believe about 15%) said yes. However, when they asked them whether they would have knowing only what they knew then, the number was about 50% (and keep in mind, the actual number may be higher but some who had answered no to the first question might not have wanted to admit to it.)

So, it is clear that while parents of children with disabilities (whether it's DS, AS, Autism, or whatever) may at first not want to have the kid, but if they do have the child and raise him or her, they realize that it's not bad. That being said, I don't believe aborting a child with DS, AS, or Autism is any worse than aborting any other unwanted child. I really don't see the distinction between getting pregnant with a kid, realizing you can't afford to raise one, and having an abortion and getting pregnant with a kid, realizing that kid will have autism, deciding you don't want that, and getting an abortion. While I don't believe abortion should be used as a post-facto form of birth control in general, that is another issue which is totally irrelevant.

This is one of the justifications behind prenatal testing: the ability for earlier intervention for those with autism to reduce their suffering in life.

I believe there is nothing inherently wrong with unique or different. However, I think there is something wrong with suffering, if help is available. If human suffering of any kind, from any condition, mental, neurological, or physical can be alleviated in a significant way by prenatal testing and early intervention, it is a wonderful thing for those who are suffering, along with the families who share their anguish.




I think one of the best traits in some of the Aspergers people I know is their acceptance of the difference of others along with a non-judgemental attitude. I think it may the level of rejection some of us have experienced in our life that makes it hard for us to judge others in a negative way. I think we have a choice to be angry at those who do not accept us or understand that they may be different and there may be reasons they do this that we do not fully understand.

I can see where moral standards were promoted, in our culture, and the media, in the 1950's, but those days are long gone. I don't see the evolution of our culture, as necessarily a positive one. If seems to me that in many ways we are moving back toward our base instincts. The content provided in electronic media reinforces this on a daily basis. Many people feel the need to strive towards physical and material perfection, because that is the ideal they are exposed to during the course of their lives. A feeling of superiority and rejection of those that don't fit the ideal is an underlying theme in our culture. It also reflects our base instinct of "survival of the fittest".

The only way to escape rejection is through isolation, and this is a painful choice for a social animal.

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When I was young I had lots of little problems from speech, learning and co-existing in environments and can remember still the psychological anguish of kindergarten and 1st grade which developed all sorts of additional problems. Not everyone is born to fit the typical mold and not to respect and realize that I think is a flaw in human perception. While I don't think it was the intention of those around me to cause harm understanding creates an acceptance of the diversity of what is but not necessarily what shouldn't be. I can assure you that any other view which would entail the forcing of normalcy over the normal that I am would be crushed politically. Other groups have got to be accepted and how I am is how I was born and is not something I caught or chose. It's radical many other views just by means of common sense perceptions.



I don't think this is the case at all. If a prevailing view wants to entice the rejection of how someone was born when positivity enhances quality of life they are too easily overcome and are in a fantasy world if they think otherwise. Simple enough.. I have permission to be me and I don't need permission from anyone else no matter how much assumed otherwise.

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From your description above about your childhood, it sounds like you had adversity in your life and was able to overcome much of it. I had similiar experiences in my life and I feel fortunate that I was able to overcome it. I think it made me a stronger person, overall, in my life, and seems to have had the same impact on you. I don't define what you describe or I what I have experienced in life as suffering. In my opinion a better description would be adversity.

When I speak of suffering in Autism, I am referring to those people, that cannot adapt to life because their physical and mental impairments are much greater than what we have experienced. In many cases, those people cannot verbally express the physical and mental torture they may feel in life. If this level of suffering in life can be alleviated someway, somehow, and prenatal testing is an avenue for it, I have a hard time dismissing it.

I don't suggest that anyone isolate themselves from society because they are rejected. It is a part of life that everyone experiences and unfortunately the farther away a person is from the perceived norm the more likely it is that they will be rejected and not accepted. I think it is part of our culture and human nature.

I think it is good that you don't need permission to be anyone else but you; this seems like a great attitude. I agree that no one will ever force normalcy on you but on the other hand, even though the law may require accomodations for the "disabled", acceptance remains a personal choice for each individual in society.

Last edited by aghogday on 12 Dec 2010, 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The quote thing is hard to figure out.

"From your description above about your childhood, it sounds like you had adversity in your life and was able to overcome much of it. I had similiar experiences in my life and I feel fortunate that I was able to overcome it. I think it made me a stronger person, overall, in my life, and seems to have had the same impact on you. I don't define what you describe or I what I have experienced in life as suffering. In my opinion a better description would be adversity.

No it was suffering on a mental level. School was hell despite my great desire to learn. It was not my autism that was the reason solely but the inability to understand and accommodate me. I do not think all of my childhood was bad. Also I see people with autism and others with disabilities of the developmental kind all the time. No one appears to be in a horrid hell but this sub-topic I am not arguing for or against abortion but accepting what is and embracing the inclusion of differences as one chooses.

When I speak of suffering in Autism, I am referring to those people, that cannot adapt to life because their physical and mental impairments are much greater than what we have experienced. In many cases, those people cannot verbally express the physical and mental torture they may feel in life. If this level of suffering in life can be alleviated someway, somehow, and prenatal testing is an avenue for it, I have a hard time dismissing it.

Autism is very diverse. With the proper acceptance and inclusive enhancements to our culture with not much more then the programs that exist now like I am part of impairments as what might be defined at times will reduce. Quality of life by means of the cultural inclusion at times will improve. This happens by means of awareness and spreading ideas of suffering and strict negativities I strongly have concluded unlikely to succeed. Everything likes inspiration or could use some.

I don't suggest that anyone isolate themselves from society because they are rejected. It is a part of life that everyone experiences and unfortunately the farther away a person is from the perceived norm the more likely it is that they will be rejected and not accepted. It think it is part of our culture and human nature.

This conversation has lost its tracking and de-railed. Isolation happens for many reasons. Cultural inclusion and positive acceptance is like a love that manifest real life changes.

I think it is good that you don't need permission to be anyone else but you; this seems like a great attitude. I agree that no one will ever force normalcy on you but on the other hand, even though the law may require accomodations for the "disabled", acceptance remains a personal choice for each individual in society."

This is a very broad topic with many complicated and fascinating ways to perceive it. I'd like to impress positivity creates confidence, accommodation ability and the desire of others to include creates friendships and well being. I think this will be created with flexibility of how autism is viewed, the removal ultimately of the label from an identity of a person and or association and the manifestation of the desires to include that which is not included in very flexible and kind ways. That is what I am doing where I live and think it is important difference instead of strict adherence to negativity in the sociology is vital.

I know what I'm doing.

Situation is that the reason is more likely to be the latter than the former. Doctors will be directed to pressure the parents to have an abortion.

What about conditions like Tay-Sachs or anencephaly? Children with anencephaly and Tay-Sachs don't survive long, and their lives are extremely short and terribly painful.

That is very sad about people that experience pain like that. I am not sure if it my place to decide this and maybe a prenatal cure could be developed. I do not know much about the science of these conditions. Autism is not like those things.

If anyone has not watched the Patton movie yet here is another invitation. I think I like his personality and might get a poster of him. I've watched to many videos of him including the Patton movie from Hollywood over and over. Maybe I should quit but it is still fascinating. Patton was bull headed, hardcore strategical mind and very hard to work around at times.

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I respect all of your opinions and think a positive approach to what you are trying to accomplish is the best way to achieve goals.

In a discussion on whether or not prenatal tests for a condition is like Hitler and Jews, it is reasonable to expect some heart felt differences of opinion. Some of the negative realities about life with autism are bound to come up.

Perhaps my perception of suffering is different than yours. I had a child with many of the physical traits associated with autism. He also had other congenital anomalies. It was obvious, when he was born, that he would not survive. Modern medicine allowed him 51 days of life, that I can assure you was nothing but the torrid hell that you say you have not observed in others with disabilities. If there was any prenatal test available at the time that would of lessened his suffering and perhaps allowed him a chance at life, I would of paid any price for it.

My final opinion on prenatal tests for Autism, if they become available, will be based on how effective they are in facilitating interventions that create a better quality of life for children with severe Autism.

As far as I am concerned Abortion is a separate issue that is not directly related to prenatal testing for Autism. While some individuals may choose this option, no one will dictate that they do it. At least, not in the United States.

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I am simply not allowed to respond to what you just said in support or against abortion of autism. It is against my organizations policy. However I will say autism for me was no great and is no great physical pain to me. Moreover it is seldom that autism manifest other then in rare circumstances behaviors that are very adverse. Autism costs the system more then typical children. I used to hit my head on things, slam on the ground and other things as well but I think this would have been easily corrected and was the result of being over stimulated in non-accommodating environments. Also autism differs from these rare conditions that cause pain. I think I am very happy and as awareness has grown if I was very young now I think the school systems are better equipped to accommodate.