Can people with Aspergers still be social?

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katzefrau
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29 Dec 2010, 2:40 am

Mercurial wrote:
katzefrau wrote:
intermittent explosive disorder? is that a real disorder?

it sounds kind of hocus-pocusy. and it sounds like you know your son much better than the doctor and probably know more about AS as well.


Yes it is. But it's a controversial one.


a controversial one that a doctor might conclude by misunderstanding what a meltdown is?
:?


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29 Dec 2010, 2:47 am

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My son is 16 and has been diagnosed with Aspergers in the past. He is now seeing a new psychiatrist who says there is no way he can have Aspergers because he can be social at school (even though all he wants to do at home is play on a computer game called Runescape and do nothing with others). He thinks my son has Intermittent Explosive Disorder because he get very angry and upset if things don't go his way (like he has to get off the computer). So, basically, this doctor is saying that is my son really has Aspergers he wouldn't be able to "fake" being friendly to other kids at school.

What do you all think of this? The doctor seems to think I am clueless and I would love to set him straight!

Thank you!

Catherine


A person with AS can give the illusion of being social, however this is only an illusion. This happens under at least one of three conditions.

1. The person has had social skills training and has learned to mimic sociability.
2. The person has realized their deficits and has learned to mimic sociability on their own.
3. The person is oblivious to their social indeptness and is just one of those people with AS who talks a lot.

I have learned, that since NT's do not expect others to be internally inherently different than them, if you act like them, they think you are like them. Thus, with the proper insight or training, one can easily present the illusion of being socially adept, and NT's typically expand on that image and assume the person is also capable of forming and maintaining sincere, interpersonal relationships easily.

However a person with AS, despite social skills training, often still has substantial difficulty forming and maintaining any relationship of substance, and even if they seem to navigate these sufficiently to maintain them, doing so inevitably proves stressful as it requires a lot of mental resources due to the fact that, to the individual with AS, such behaviors do not come naturally, and the person is acting against their internally introverted nature.

So it would be inappropriate to claim someone does not have AS simply because they seem social. One must first examine the exact nature of their social musings, and the depth and integrity of the relationships they form.



dyingofpoetry
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29 Dec 2010, 7:35 pm

Quote:
A person with AS can give the illusion of being social, however this is only an illusion. This happens under at least one of three conditions.

2. The person has realized their deficits and has learned to mimic sociability on their own.

I have learned, that since NT's do not expect others to be internally inherently different than them, if you act like them, they think you are like them. Thus, with the proper insight or training, one can easily present the illusion of being socially adept, and NT's typically expand on that image and assume the person is also capable of forming and maintaining sincere, interpersonal relationships easily.

However a person with AS, despite social skills training, often still has substantial difficulty forming and maintaining any relationship of substance, and even if they seem to navigate these sufficiently to maintain them, doing so inevitably proves stressful as it requires a lot of mental resources due to the fact that, to the individual with AS, such behaviors do not come naturally, and the person is acting against their internally introverted nature.


I have basically taught myself enough social skills to actually teach them to others in a recovery setting. This is what many Aspergians do; they often have the ability to recognize the differences between themselves and NTs and they learn to ape their behavior, but it is only acting and it is still feels quite unnatural to ourselves. As Chronos points out, it may seem natural to NTs, but it is stessful and exhausting to the Aspergian. I have been told many times by NTs that I seem quite comfortable among others, when, in actuality, I dread interaction and when I am forced to socialize, I am often grinding my teeth and sometimes I just want to put my head through a wall.

After a few hours of forced socialization, I desperately need to get home, be alone and stim myself into oblivion.


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FunnyFaceKing
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30 Dec 2010, 7:46 am

This story is so sad. Why are so many doctors so resistant to the AS diagnosis?


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30 Dec 2010, 8:28 am

manypets wrote:
My son is 16 and has been diagnosed with Aspergers in the past. He is now seeing a new psychiatrist who says there is no way he can have Aspergers because he can be social at school (even though all he wants to do at home is play on a computer game called Runescape and do nothing with others).


I'm in the minority in here, but if he doesn't want to be social, then leave him alone. He's old enough whether to choose to be asocial or social.

dyingofpoetry wrote:

I have basically taught myself enough social skills to actually teach them to others in a recovery setting. This is what many Aspergians do; they often have the ability to recognize the differences between themselves and NTs and they learn to ape their behavior, but it is only acting and it is still feels quite unnatural to ourselves. As Chronos points out, it may seem natural to NTs, but it is stessful and exhausting to the Aspergian. I have been told many times by NTs that I seem quite comfortable among others, when, in actuality, I dread interaction and when I am forced to socialize, I am often grinding my teeth and sometimes I just want to put my head through a wall.

After a few hours of forced socialization, I desperately need to get home, be alone and stim myself into oblivion.


Ever considered the possibility that socializing just isn't right for you. You're not forced to socialize if you wish not to and you shouldn't if you feel it just not right. I been into your position not too long age when I was 15 to 16 till I realize how pointless and dreadful it is to socialize. I do not have aspergers, but I would not be considered a neurotypical either. I just consider myself to may have a loner personality style.



zer0netgain
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30 Dec 2010, 8:40 am

AS does not = unable to socialize.

Rather, having AS means we tend to blunder in that area. If you meet the right group of people, being social isn't as big a problem as it might be in a different group of people.

Likewise, many with AS want to socialize, but eventually stop trying because it's painful. Positive socialization experiences can make a person with AS more willing to socialize in later years.



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30 Dec 2010, 9:44 am

First off here is your problem : psychiatrist
One of the biggest problems I have noticed is people do not know the differences within the mental health profession. Psychiatrists are very bad at diagnostics. They are essentially medical doctors with some training in clinical psychology. Most are very bad at anything beyond mood disorders, especially neurological differences, PDD, learning disorders, etc. Clinical and Neurological Psychologists (whether it be psy.d.s or ph.d.s), who literally spend their entire time in school working on diagnostics and clinical treatments and therapy that do not involve pills, these days often focused on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) which is VERY effective in addressing some of the downsides of being on the spectrum, such as the meltdowns.
Clinical Social Workers I have found to also be very good, though thier training is different. They are not as good diagnosticians as Psychologists, as they don't focus as much on that, but they are often very good therapist.

From my own experience a psychologist who is familiar with PDD should ALWAYS be the lead diagnostician when AS is suspected. A CSW should play a supporting role in therapy if the psychologist is not interested in doing so. A psychiatrist should only be used for a supporting role but only rarely (such as ADD or behavioral disorder is also present), but should NEVER be used as the primary diagnostician. A psychiatrist should have a VERY limited role in this. It is a mistake most parents make, he is the last person you should see, not the first, and never the lead.

I can go on, but fire the psychiatrist, and find a good psychologist. He doesn't understand AS or meltdowns which should be a red flag right there.

Get a psychologist or clinical social worker who works with those on the spectrum. Psychiatrists first reaction is to diagnose people with mood disorders and hand out pills. They don't like people on the spectrum since there is no pill for autism.

Word of advice. Figure out your sons obsessions (which may be computers), and stay away from them. He probably needs them to decompress, and it is best to realize those are hard boundaries.

By the way I was social in high school. Social development can go in fits and spurts for somebody on the spectrum.

Also one of the ways we are social is often in the narrow area of our own interests. For example we may be okay at a interest focused club meeting, but struggle once we are around things that fall outside of our interests. Parties with strangers, or even parties with people who do not share our interests, can be rather alienating even if its family. Its not that we can't be social, or have to fake being social, but the more we stretch it outside our interests the harder it gets. I have noticed that those of us who have interests that have a robust social community such as music, tend to adapt better than those who have interests that do not have a robust social community. This allows a bit more social development on our part, it may not be equal as our NT peers in these community, but we do learn stuff.

Thats just my experience though, but I am more atypical compared to most. But I have to admit...I was very bad before age 14, getting into the arts helped me.



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30 Dec 2010, 10:33 am

Ah yes, AS and the "friends" issue. When I first started reading about AS, I thought it sounded suspiciously like myself, and my own experience of the world- (especially as a child)- but I was baffled by the fact that as an adult, I had learned to socialize and I did have some friends. So I e-mailed Tony Attwood, asking him about this, and asking if it was possible for someone with friends to still have AS. I was so confused by everything, I told him half my life story! In any case, he explained that someone with AS can handle certain types of social situations, and can have friends, it's just that new social situations will always be difficult for that person. As Tony Attwood is one of the main experts on AS, I figure he should know! I still have the e-mail too. So you can tell that to the psychiatrist....unless he doesn't know who Tony Attwood is, ha ha.

Anyway, it is amazing how many psychiatrists don't really seem to know much about it. I think they all know a lot about their own "special subject", and maybe the speciality of this doctor happens to be Intermittant Explosive Disorder....(I've vever heard of it....what will they think up next?)

AS_mom wrote:
Otherwise he does not fit into social circles and has great difficulty although he has told the psychiatrist that he does have friends outside. I think it is embarrasement and realizing they are experiencing life differently.....


This is how I was when I was a pre-teen and teenager. I knew there was something different about me- (AS was unheard of in those days)- and I had experienced so much pressure to be social and have friends and be "normal", that I would just defiantly tell people that I DID have friends, even when I didn't. I think it was just a reaction to my whole experience. So this sort of thing can happen too.


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30 Dec 2010, 10:43 am

Failure to develop and maintain peer relationships appropriate to developmental level

This is straight from the DSM V critieria for diagnosis.

No comment RE social/not social. Just saying that a Doctor could easily take that one sentence and apply it to an opinion.

As for me, I am highly social for an Aspie. But I am also AG/AS. I have a LOT of friends/people who love and support me. I cannot spend a long time with them in these social gatherings and they know I must have my alone time, that I stim, etc but I have learned to make and keep friends. I am also one of those Aspies who knows they are socially weird but who honestly doesn't give a flip what people think about them. Oh yeah, and I was blessed with humour that NTs understand too which appears to be a very big blessing.

Something to keep in mind is that an AS who is also gifted can develop characterisitcs from both. The result of the colliding characteristics can result in a social tragedy or one that can socially survive quite well.


http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/eric/fact/asperger.pdf

See table 2 in this document....



katzefrau
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30 Dec 2010, 10:16 pm

kfisherx wrote:
Something to keep in mind is that an AS who is also gifted can develop characterisitcs from both. The result of the colliding characteristics can result in a social tragedy or one that can socially survive quite well.


http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/eric/fact/asperger.pdf



interesting. thanks for posting.

i keep rereading though and can't make sense of the distinction between AG and AG / AS. aren't they using AG to mean Asperger / Gifted? utterly confused and they do not explain this well.


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kfisherx
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31 Dec 2010, 2:40 am

katzefrau wrote:
kfisherx wrote:
Something to keep in mind is that an AS who is also gifted can develop characterisitcs from both. The result of the colliding characteristics can result in a social tragedy or one that can socially survive quite well.


http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/eric/fact/asperger.pdf



interesting. thanks for posting.

i keep rereading though and can't make sense of the distinction between AG and AG / AS. aren't they using AG to mean Asperger / Gifted? utterly confused and they do not explain this well.


Yeah, near as I can tell, they messed up and meant for gifted to be AG and Asperger Gifted to be AG/AS.



dyingofpoetry
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31 Dec 2010, 3:30 am

Reptillian wrote:
dyingofpoetry wrote:

I have basically taught myself enough social skills to actually teach them to others in a recovery setting. This is what many Aspergians do; they often have the ability to recognize the differences between themselves and NTs and they learn to ape their behavior, but it is only acting and it is still feels quite unnatural to ourselves. As Chronos points out, it may seem natural to NTs, but it is stessful and exhausting to the Aspergian. I have been told many times by NTs that I seem quite comfortable among others, when, in actuality, I dread interaction and when I am forced to socialize, I am often grinding my teeth and sometimes I just want to put my head through a wall.

After a few hours of forced socialization, I desperately need to get home, be alone and stim myself into oblivion.


Ever considered the possibility that socializing just isn't right for you. You're not forced to socialize if you wish not to and you shouldn't if you feel it just not right. I been into your position not too long age when I was 15 to 16 till I realize how pointless and dreadful it is to socialize. I do not have aspergers, but I would not be considered a neurotypical either. I just consider myself to may have a loner personality style.


Reptillian... I am 47 years old. I have a degree. I am a professional. I am a published writer. I am a career/financial coach. None of that makes me better than anyone, but it means that I know what is good for me and what is not good for me. Social interaction is important for me in order to be an effective leader and it is important for me in achieving my goals in life.

There is much I wished to do with myself early on and I learned that I needed to learn how to make friends and engage in conversation so that I could get where I wanted to be. Yes, it is stressful and exhausting, but so are many other activities that are ultimately rewarding and that are necessary to bring us happiness.

Those who are not aware that I have AS may not appreciate my efforts, but those who are tend to cut me some slack and are much better friends than they would be otherwise, because they know that I like them enough to put forth genuine effort to form relationships with them.

To be back on topic, when I was in my teens, however, I felt pretty much hopeless. I had no friends with whom I socialized outside of school and in school there were very few. I went through many periods of feeling extremely lonely and even suicidal, and then I realized that what I needed to do was to learn the ins and outs of social interaction. The navigaiton is often quite difficult, but there ARE rewards.


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31 Dec 2010, 4:17 am

I tried to be when I was in my late tens and early 20's but it pretty much blew up in my face. I had no trouble being there I just had problems with jerks who did not want me being there. Everytime I went out and it looked like I was enjoying myself some idiot felt entitled to walk up to me to start trouble. They literally invented reason to start trouble such as saying they did not like what I just said yet the could not tell me what I just said that offended them. They even said they did not like the way I laughed or that I pointed at them but my friends would verify my hands did not move away from my sides. They just wanted me to be miserable so I would not return. Its a wonder I never went on a shooting rampage. :P


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31 Dec 2010, 4:24 am

I'm very social, but I miss social cues. That makes conversation awkward, but not impossible.

Your doc is the one who's clueless.


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31 Dec 2010, 6:08 am

FunnyFaceKing wrote:
This story is so sad. Why are so many doctors so resistant to the AS diagnosis?

Because to them lack of social skills is what is most fitting for an AS diagnosis.
When I was first diagnosed the psychologist said I couldn't have AS without having really intense obsessions. Luckily I do have them.
Although I fit classic autism more than AS.


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31 Dec 2010, 8:39 am

If your son is anything like I was then the social skills may have just been trained. I can come across as social when I need to, but when I get home for the day I sit at my computer playing games most of the time.

I am also familiar with the Runescape game that your son plays. It has actually been around since I was younger then him, and I'm 26 now. I found that as a teenager, and still into my adult years that I could socialize pretty well when playing an online game such as World of Warcraft or Runescape. You tend to not feel the social awkwardness when chatting with somebody through an avatar. They don't see your awkward behavior, your lack of eye contact, etc. Even to this day I can't engage in social situations well, but still love rambling on to people on online games.